My Pet Peeve _ Heat Treat is everything!

LOL

I think there might be a couple of you guys that needs to get a grip on "reality".

I'll tell you all about reality... I've actually been there and made it back in one piece.

... not many people can say that. :)
 
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Heat treating is as important or un-important as you want it to be... You are the master of the steel.

If you are the slave to the steel,... it's by your own choosing... and you'll be whooped for it/by it... Guaranteed. :D

LOL
 
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LRB said:
Geez Tai, do you smoke that stuff every day, or just before you get on this board? I recognize that you are good at what you do, and have much expertise in blade work, and I admire your skills, but Wood Stock was a long time ago.
No SShepard, he has a problem accepting reality in lew of a fairy tale world of wizards and dragons, but he is a fine craftsman, and that cannot be denied, though his work is not to my particular taste.
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I've never made a comment about his work. I do take issue with him constantly pushing heat treating as esotericism.
 
SShepherd said:
I've never made a comment about his work. I do take issue with him constantly pushing heat treating as esotericism.
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How could I be pushing "heat treating as esotericism", when I've never even heard of it. That's a new one. Did you think of that yourself? I don't think there really is such a thing... anyone can heat treat, which is kind of my point.


What ever it is I'm pushing, as long as it isn't "heat treating as terrorism",... I'm O.K. with it. :)
 
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How about I start a heat treating as self discovery, expression, awareness, art and out reach program?

... for the common good of all mankind? How would that be?

A mission from god sort of thing?
Voodoo is for everyone! :)

I bet you'd like that. :)

... or is that already taken?
 
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I guess we really don't need another heat treating cult. Oh well. :(

... or maybe we do?

Maybe,... I could find a spot somewhere between the Cashenites and the Folwerites? Wouldn't that be the bomb?

... or is that one already taken too?

I'd like to know what Anvil Jaw thinks on this one,... or maybe not! LOL
 
JMJones said:
I am sick of the term as well and was actually thinking of this the other day. It is a given if you are talking to someone with even a basic knowlege of how knives are made. It reminds me of the guys on the hunting forums who brag how accurate their rifle is and then add "if I do my part" . That is also a given. If someone is shooting from the hip for accuracy or hardening D2 with a torch, I would probably rather talk about something else with them.
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I think JM Jones says it well, It's a given and doesn't need stating all the time. It seems to take the topic off the steel or whatever and makes the heat treat seem to be a mystery. We are lucky to have the metalurgists on this site and superior heat treatment advice is readily available. I find no big reason to worry about other makers or manufacturers heat treat. Many of us got into this business because because we knew we could make better knives. As I see it, the only profit in knife making is to make a superior product that people are willing to pay a small premium for. I may be optimistic, but a serious maker should spend the time to make a great knife. Send it out for heat treatment if you don't have the tools to do it right. Loveless did.

I realize sometimes improperly heat treated knives need discussion but I would love to see the phrase "if heat treated properly" used less often since it ads so little to the discussion.

David
 
Or... maybe I just got too much sugar in my oatmeal agian... it happens.

Glad we had this little talk.
 
David Metzger said:
I think JM Jones says it well, It's a given and doesn't need stating all the time. It seems to take the topic off the steel or whatever and makes the heat treat seem to be a mystery.
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I agree that HT shouldn't be some big mystery. This is not a matter of national security. :rolleyes:
David Metzger said:
Many of us got into this business because because we knew we could make better knives.... I may be optimistic, but a serious maker should spend the time to make a great knife. Send it out for heat treatment if you don't have the tools to do it right. Loveless did.
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I agree with all that, too. FWIW I'm not yet satisfied with my own HT capabilities, and do employ a pro shop (Peters') to do the HT on the knives I sell. That's no mystery either. :)
 
To each their own, I guess. The reality of piss-poor heat treating still exists, and when questions arise about expected performance of steels, proper heat treatment of the steel is not always a given. I can't count how many backyard heat treatment threads I have seen come up in this very forum over the years where the maker had not even a basic understanding of how to do the heat treatment properly for the steel used. And that doesn't even begin to touch on the lack of knowledge of what was actually being accomplished by the treatment.

I also agree it should (edit: NOT) be a big mystery as the information is out there and readily available. I've got a number of steel data sheet PDF's hosted on my website alone. Some people just don't know what to look for or refuse to be bothered to look for it as their great grand pappy heated saw steel in a raging creosote fire and dunked it in lard mixed with motor oil. That might just work, and it might just not.

--nathan
 
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I'll make a deal with you. I'll stop saying "if heat treated properly" when people stop saying " I heated to nonmagnetic then quenched in motor oil" I've discussed heat treating with makers who have made waaayyyyy more knives than me and they didn't have a clear understanding of heat treating. It seems that the proper heat treating of knives is something that should be discussed often.
Heat treating alone doesn't make a knife. Geometry, grind, etc all are part of what makes a knife. My Channel Lock Pliers are made of superbly heat treated 1080 but won't cut wet cardboard.:D
 
"Jesus Christ can send a bar of steel down from Heaven. It will only be as good as the heat treatment it gets on Earth."
Jerry Rados

"Geometry cuts. Heat treatment determines how long."
Roman Landes
 
Brian Ayres said:
I'll make a deal with you. I'll stop saying "if heat treated properly" when people stop saying " I heated to nonmagnetic then quenched in motor oil" I've discussed heat treating with makers who have made waaayyyyy more knives than me and they didn't have a clear understanding of heat treating. It seems that the proper heat treating of knives is something that should be discussed often.
Heat treating alone doesn't make a knife. Geometry, grind, etc all are part of what makes a knife. My Channel Lock Pliers are made of superbly heat treated 1080 but won't cut wet cardboard.:D
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I don't typically say "if heat treated properly" but perhaps after reading this thread I should. There are so many people who use a torch, drop their blades edge first into a shallow tray of goo, heat sophisticated high alloy steels to 1414 f (the temperature at which steel becomes non magnetic regardless of alloy content) then plunge them into used motor oil and a thousand other crackpot techniques that proper heat treat seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Cutting is about geometry, the steel supports and makes possible the geometry, the grind is how we achieve the geometry, everything else is secondary except the heat treat which is what allows the steel to do what it is supposed to do.

-Page
 
Tai Goo said:
I do it because it's good MoJO. :)

I like playing with fire, steel and oil/water,... that's all. It's not "everything" though.

I like geometry too.
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disagree strongly look at scandi ground blades flat to sharpened edge something like that will do nothing if it is an annealed steel no matter what steel it is so yes heat treat is everything!!!!!
 
chad2 said:
heat treat is everything!!!!!
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Only philosophically, but if that's what you believe, it's fine. However, I can assure you that there are other equally valid ways of looking at it and I believe some much better ways. If you choose to promote that idea, I don't really have a problem with it. Like I said, it's as important or un-important as you want it to be. Blade performance is the same way. Personally, I don't like to limit myself to just one perspective, but use a variety of approaches on different projects for different reasons.

If you like that idea, work with it,... see how well a 1 inch round bar or 2 inch ball bearing will cut.

... Nothing is everything, poetically speaking.
 
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I agree with the OP, that the statement is made quite often... but my pet peeve is that they leave out geometry and ergonomics!

In my opinion, geometry dictates how well a knife cuts and heat treat will determine how long. Thanks Karl... I never knew the source of that! Good ol Roman.
 
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A good discussion everyone. Roman Landes and Kevin Cashen and several others have done so much for the industry, I really want to thank them and I try to read everything they write on the internet. I studied what it takes to do good heat treat and decided to just send out my knives to Peter's also. And I only have used O1 so far. I guess a lot of knife makers like the old school heat and used motor oil, they didn't get into knife making for the science. If you only make a couple knives, sending your knife away for heat treat is expensive. Use Aldo's 1084 if you need a low expense home heat treat!

You probably get me by now, I think heat treatment is critical and some thought and testing should go into your blades. The phrase, "If heat treated properly" - well, in my opinion, it just doesn't add much to the discussion. Steels do have different properties and are interesting to talk about. Edges, profiles, sharpening, steels, ergonomics, beauty, the craft, techniques and heat treat all excite me. I really don't think we need to worry how other people make knives or police the world.

Anyway, I will try to make my next few posts positive and more fun. (although Tai Goo had a lot of fun)

David
 
Tai Goo said:
If you like that idea, work with it,... see how well a 1 inch round bar or 2 inch ball bearing will cut.
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Interesting challenge. I'll bet that properly applied, either the rod or the ball could cut quite handily. There are few problems that cannot be solved by a good design.
 
Tai Goo said:
I'd like to know what Anvil Jaw thinks on this one,... or maybe not! LOL
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LOL..... you axed fer it!

Joking aside, I think you can make knives however you want. Some people pay more attention to the physical science part and others the artistic aspect. I also believe you can't have one without the other when it comes to objects open to human interpretation. I see arguements popping up when folks try to tread into the area they have less experience in. It is often as simple as semantics.... easily rectified. Facts can be presented but if someone is not willing to accept them, where do you go? When it gets into a battle of beliefs, there is little chance of winning anything. I am going to make a point of recognizing the latter to avoid unnecessary bad mojo in the future.
 
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