My pet peeve, Science is everything

[BenR.T.]

Art makes knives look good, science makes them function properly.

 

[Salem Straub]

It's OK to see science as fallible, and OK to decry a culture of scientism. I understand those things. But this is pertaining strictly to knives. So, metallurgy.

I don't think of the world of handmade knives being at all shifted toward science as opposed to art. I think actually appearance takes precedence to many.

Maybe you don't like to think of knifemaking becoming a club restricted only to those with high-tech shops who can afford the latest cutting edge equipment. I don't like to think that either. But I also don't see that happening.

If the science talk has necessitated that those of us who would be taken seriously as makers step up our game with HT, I see that as a good thing. Doesn't mean we all have to own salt pots.

Some people will care that you quenched in canola, not P50. They aren't your market, that's all. The important thing is whether you believe your method to be valid. (Hopefully based on some real world data.)

I can see that the beliefs of "scientistic" people get pushed on others sometimes, it's not always as black and white as they would like to believe. I can agree with you on that.

 

[Tai Goo]

I like where this is going...

Forget the facts, for a minute or two.

Play with some new ideas. We can always go back to the facts if we need them.

Let's have fun!

 

[VaughnT]

"It cannot be scientifically proven that science is the only means by which the truth is attainable.." That statement, by itself, is untrue. I might not be scientifically provable at this time, or our understanding of the science, the data, isn't up to speed at this time. But, the Scientific Method provides a concrete system for divining information and conclusions. Faith doesn't do that. Art doesn't do that. So, if we are to someday understand the truth of any given matter, we just use an empirical method to slowly and steadily plod our way towards it.

There is no such thing as bad science. There is false science, or a series of dots and dashes made to look like science to confuse people so individuals can garner power for themselves, but just because someone calls it science doesn't make it science. Rather like calling an apple an orange and trying to use reams of obfuscation to confuse the readership so they forget what the original point was.

 

[RogerP]

I'm just curious Tai, and would like some sort of concrete example of what you are talking about.

Much easier to just say "It is so because I declare it to be so."

Roger

 

[Tai Goo]

Much easier to just say "It is so because I declare it to be so."

Roger

I do declare.

 

[Mark Schmitt]

The use of the word "best" is a subjective value judgment and un-scientific, unsubstantiated opinion.... hype.

Nothing wrong with stating an opinion right? One can even do it without "hype", I would opine...

So let's stay away from the subjective -when it comes to objective matters is there a method better than science to determine what is true?

Mark

 

[Dave Behrens]

I have read this whole thread twice, and I still have no fricken idea what any of you are talking about.

 

[Tai Goo]

So let's stay away from the subjective -when it comes to objective matters is there a method better than science to determine what is true?

Mark

There haven't been any scientific studies on it that I know of. Do you?

Why stay away from the subjective? This is a subjective topic.

Is it impossible to let go of the objective?... at least you acknowledge that there is a subjective, I guess.

 

[Tai Goo]

I have read this whole thread twice, and I still have no fricken idea what any of you are talking about.

I guess that's better than thinking you do... but it can make sense if you try... let's see if we can figure it out.

What specific part are you having a problem with?

 

[Dave Behrens]

Um...ok I read it again and I think my brain started bleeding, sooo...

My position is whether science or faith, the common factor is human influence. So I choose to not trust anyone, do my own resarch and come to my own conclusion. If I am proven wrong by experience I repeat the process.

Now I must go, I just went blind in my left eye.

 

[daizee]

Why stay away from the subjective? This is a subjective topic.

Is it impossible to let go of the objective?

We cannot share subjectivity. That is why.
'Subjectivity' is, by nature, an experience of the subject. We cannot share this, we can only try to communicate our subjective experiences by using shared information that is apart from each of our own internal experiences. Those things, those references we share, that are apart from the subjects, are 'objects'.

Your own experience is truly what your senses have communicated about the objects in our shared reality to your brain , which has integrated them.
We cannot share these things. 'Letting go of the objective' is to retreat into oneself.

We could argue about whether or not our different subjective experiences constitute different ACTUAL realities (apart from us physically changing shared things), but without a means of validating this, I don't see the point.

I think it is useful to consider that if one knife makes you FEEL better than another, then it's the better knife for you. However without corroborating evidence, I am unconvinced that the knife itself has changed, or that the same knife will make ME feel better than something else I subjectively prefer.

-Daizee

 

[me2]

No maker I've read here or anywhere else says science is everything. However, we all use science when it suits our purposes, even Tai.

 

[Tai Goo]

we all use science when it suits our purposes, even Tai.

Most definitely. I’ve never made a knife without science,… but so what? It goes without saying that science was involved, but it wasn't the only thing... there were also inescapable subjective considerations.


Inescapable subjective considerations.

 

[Rick Marchand]

What attracts me to knives and knifemaking is it is "Artistically Applied Science"

This is my favorite post in this thread. 100%:thumbup:

The two should be in harmony. Any one-sided arguement for or against the validity of the other, is either dishonest or ill-informed.

Science and art are like oil and vinegar... they are insoluble but make a hell of a tasty salad!

 

[daizee]

Inescapable subjective considerations.

And a damn good thing too, or the result would be seriously undesirable to most people. (there's no accounting for taste, or as Opus says "To each his dentifrice".)

I could grind an edge on a bare piece of stock, give it the "perfect" heat treat, and by many relevant scientific measures it would be a knife, even a good one. But who would care? Fortunately we are humans making wonderful things for other humans. If I'm making a knife for a robotic arm to be reproduced by the thousands, you can be sure that its aesthetic will adhere to an entirely different definition of 'pretty', defined mostly by engineering requirements. I doubt many would sell on the open market to knife fanciers.

-Daizee

 

[Luke Shearer]

Guys, I dont think some of you understand that the idea Tai is putting forward is BIGGER than knifemaking, and that he AGREES with science. What he (and I agree with him) is opposed to is illogical "religion" masquerading as science. Its called scientism. And, as has been said before, science cant be right or wrong because its just a method of finding facts about certain types of truth in the physical universe. Science cannot prove many things just because of its nature, therefore it cant be the prime method for finding objective truth.

 

[Rick Marchand]

This is one of those threads that get's you thinking which is good... but is also gets you talking... which can be bad.

IMO this is an "Around the Grinder" thread... but the registered users don't have access to that.

 

[Tai Goo]

This is my favorite post in this thread. 100%:thumbup:

The two should be in harmony. Any one-sided arguement for or against the validity of the other, is either dishonest or ill-informed.

Science and art are like oil and vinegar... they are insoluble but make a hell of a tasty salad!

Anvil Jaw, Maybe, you still aren't getting the difference between science and scientism. Science mixes great with art, but scientism doesn't...

True science good/scientism not good.

 

[Tai Goo]

Guys, I dont think some of you understand that the idea Tai is putting forward is BIGGER than knifemaking, and that he AGREES with science. What he (and I agree with him) is opposed to is illogical "religion" masquerading as science. Its called scientism. And, as has been said before, science cant be right or wrong because its just a method of finding facts about certain types of truth in the physical universe. Science cannot prove many things just because of its nature, therefore it cant be the prime method for finding objective truth.

Thanks for tagging on.

Yes, what I'm talking about is WAY BIGGER than knifemaking but you can see it all the time in the field,... in any field... it's like a cancer on the human race.