Mystery Steel

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

ilmarinen - MODERATOR
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Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Saturday morning I got a call from the chap at Yukon Lumber ( our local lumber yard for exotic wood and specialty wood). He said a regular customer had come by with a box full of knife blanks found in a relatives estate. He wanted to know if they knew any knifemakers who might be interested, and what they were worth. The man had left two there for me to look at. I went on over, mostly feeling like they would be mail order Pakistani knife blades, and what he showed me was 18" bars of PG metal, 1.25X.125". What he called "knife Blanks" I call steel bars.

I contacted the owner, and he said he had 40 bars like that, with a tag on the bin saying "Knife Blanks". He said his great uncle was a machinist and made a lot of fishing and hunting knives years ago. He knew nothing else. I went last night and took a look. Could be O-1, or stainless, or who knows what??? I told him without the actual steel specs, it was basically scrap steel. I bought the entire box for $20. I will now send a sample to be analyzed and the "Mystery Steel" will become "Known Steel". Even if it isn't one of my preferred steel types, I can use it to teach young makers who want to get started with files and sandpaper. If it is one of the types I prefer, then I will have a consistent batch for a lot of fillet and hunting knives.

I do have one problem. The folks who I used to send samples for steel assay have gone up to $50. Now that is not unaffordable, but does one of the forum members still do assay? I would rather spend my money here. Or does anyone have a reliable source who charges less?

Stacy
 
Stacy
I can test it for you, and my price to you is FREE. If that's not cheap enough we can work something out.:D Email me and I'll get you my address.
Matt Doyle
 
Heating up a piece of steel and quenching it to see if it gets hard won't tell you much of anything. .... except that it is steel.
Most any steel beyond .30 carbon will harden. However, the proper HT may be at 1475F or 1850F, and tempers could range from 400F to 600F.
A good example is that 4140 hardens very similar to 1080 ( which has twice that carbon content). Heat a bar of each to above non-magnetic and quench in oil and you couldn't tell them apart. The knives made from them will be very different, though.

Getting an analysis, and designing a HT regime to fit that steel will give you the most the steel has to offer in a knife.

Stacy
 
I hate to be the one to ask it - but is there any good reason to believe all 40 bars are the same??

Anyhow, it looks like they made it into the hands of the right guy - willing to test properly - and willing to take a risk for a potential gain.

Nice score Stacy
 
Each bar is identical to the others. They all have the same surface grinder and edge milling marks,too. The bin they are in is a heavy wooden box that appears to have been make to store them.The steel had old, mostly dried, oil ( or some protectant) on the surface, and the box is dark with many years of oil soaked into the wood.The seller said he didn't think his great uncle had made any knives for over twenty years, and the bin was in his workshop at home. He said he took it to the lumber folks because he wanted it to go to another knifemaker, and felt it would be a shame for his uncle's knife steel to go to the scrap yard. I don't think he cared about what he got for it. He just said "what is it worth to you",I said "$20", he said "fine". If I had said "$5", I believe he would have said, "Fine".I believe the steel is all the same, and there is little reason to suspect a knife maker would go to the trouble of making a bin and labeling it "Knife Blanks" if it wasn't for storage of his steel stock. I have a feeling it is O-1. Can't say exactly why, but it looks like O-1 ( just kidding, all precision ground steel looks pretty much the same). The fact that he oiled the steel makes me suspect it rusts easily, which leads me to think carbon steel. Got a piece cut to send to Matt. That will solve the riddle. I'll let you folks know what the results are.

Stacy
 
Got the steel analyzed. Thanks Matt.:thumbup:
The results are proof why using a mystery steel is folly until you get it analyzed. Even with all the things that say, "Yes, this is a great steel", the resulting analysis showed that in fact, it is a useless blade steel.

C- 0.066% (not a misprint)
Mn- 1.46%
P- 0.050%
S- 0.009%
Si- 0.34%
Cu- 0.45%
Ni- 5.40%
Cr- 6.12%
Mo- 0.33%
Sn- 0.022%
Nb- 0.021%
V- 0.085%
Al- 0.010%
Ca- 0.0010%
B- 0.0008%
Ti- 0.006%
Pb- 0.006%
Sb- 0.0026%
Zn- 0.010%
Zr - 0.007%
As- 0.017%
W- 0.050%
Fe- 77.35%

Last night I soaked a piece of this steel at 1550F for 10 minutes and water quenched. It got softer than it was before quench. This steel is like a spring as is, BTW. If I had to venture a guess, I would say this was some sort of steel to make bi-metal saw blades from..... the soft part.

Stacy
 
Huh. That's some kind of story, Stacy. Thanks for being rigorous and sharing your experience. I could build a whole mental movie out of how the great uncle came by this steel, didn't have it tested, got some unhappy customers, and quit making knives. But that's just conjecture, the exact opposite of what you did. ;)
 
I see 77% Iron and the remainder only adds up to about 15% or so. What is the other 8%?

With all that nickel and chrome, it must have a bit of stain resistance. It's typical for a low carbon stainless to anneal when quenched.

Maybe you could find a niche market for fancy letter openers and butter knives.
 
I had another question about mystery steel that I've been waiting for the right time to ask...

When I bought steel from Crucible, it came with a paper that said it was certified 'mercury free'. so, my question was; when using mystery steel how can one be sure that there isn't mercury or lead in it?

I guess this thread pretty much answered that.

I mean with all the steel that comes from china and quality control practices that could be suspect, not to mention that there are things like leaded steel that make machining easier... If that stuff gets into the mix when they do the melt, what then? If its original intended use wasn't cutlery, maybe it's a good idea to be slightly wary.
 
bladsmth said:
Got the steel analyzed. Thanks Matt.:thumbup:
The results are proof why using a mystery steel is folly until you get it analyzed. Even with all the things that say, "Yes, this is a great steel", the resulting analysis showed that in fact, it is a useless blade steel.

C- 0.066% (not a misprint)
Mn- 1.46%
P- 0.050%
S- 0.009%
Si- 0.34%
Cu- 0.45%
Ni- 5.40%
Cr- 6.12%
Mo- 0.33%
Sn- 0.022%
Nb- 0.021%
V- 0.085%
Al- 0.010%
Ca- 0.0010%
B- 0.0008%
Ti- 0.006%
Pb- 0.006%
Sb- 0.0026%
Zn- 0.010%
Zr - 0.007%
As- 0.017%
W- 0.050%
Fe- 77.35%

Last night I soaked a piece of this steel at 1550F for 10 minutes and water quenched. It got softer than it was before quench. This steel is like a spring as is, BTW. If I had to venture a guess, I would say this was some sort of steel to make bi-metal saw blades from..... the soft part.

Stacy
Click to expand...

you could use it for some damascus i bet the nickle would make it nice. but the cr might make it a pain to weld. but then agian i dont know at what percentage of Cr makes it harder to weld.
 
...so you could have done a test quench on the 2 he left there and saved the $20?...

...I bet that flies up your kilt:D
 
A test quench still wouldn't tell me what it was...just what it wasn't.

I have considered trying a billet of W2 and this steel. It should work something like 203E. I'll let you know when I try and weld it up.

Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
Got the steel analyzed. Thanks Matt.:thumbup:
The results are proof why using a mystery steel is folly until you get it analyzed. Even with all the things that say, "Yes, this is a great steel", the resulting analysis showed that in fact, it is a useless blade steel.

C- 0.066% (not a misprint)
Mn- 1.46%
P- 0.050%
S- 0.009%
Si- 0.34%
Cu- 0.45%
Ni- 5.40%
Cr- 6.12%
Mo- 0.33%
Sn- 0.022%
Nb- 0.021%
V- 0.085%
Al- 0.010%
Ca- 0.0010%
B- 0.0008%
Ti- 0.006%
Pb- 0.006%
Sb- 0.0026%
Zn- 0.010%
Zr - 0.007%
As- 0.017%
W- 0.050%
Fe- 77.35%

Last night I soaked a piece of this steel at 1550F for 10 minutes and water quenched. It got softer than it was before quench. This steel is like a spring as is, BTW. If I had to venture a guess, I would say this was some sort of steel to make bi-metal saw blades from..... the soft part.

Stacy
Click to expand...

Stacy,

Why didn't it harden? Like, high chrome steels with carbon harden and high nickel steels with carbon harden and high manganese steels with carbon harden... why not this one?

Mike
 
Mike,
The carbon content is .066%, equivalent to 1006 steel ( ignoring all the alloy ingredients). That is very low carbon content. Not enough carbon to form any iron carbides, and thus not enough carbon to harden the steel. Steels below 0.40% ( 40 points) carbon aren't hardenable for knife blades. Most folks draw the line at 50-60 points carbon (.50-.60%). This steel has 1/10 that amount.
Stacy
 
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