myths-legends-and rituals about knifemaking

Bruce Evans

Bruce Evans

Joined
Sep 26, 1999
Messages
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After watching the show on PBS about the Samuri Swords I got to thinking about how religiously they do things....Lets discuss the old myths and legends that we have all heard and see if we can figure out why they say they work.

I will start with a couple:
First,
Forging facing the blade north....we have always laughed about this but after thinking about it here is what I think...

Facing north doesnt give any magical powers to the blade,but if you think about it:Having the anvil set up in a way that you will always hold the blade north when forging causes you to stand at the anvil the same everytime,which causes you to forge the blade in the same manor everytime which trains you how to forge the same everytime without allot of just random hitting..my thoughts...

Second,
Forging or heat treating during a full moon only..my thoughts...

Again no magical powers and it is fun to do.But when I think about it during ancient times they had no electrical power for lights and fire light or candle light is not a consistant light source.So to keep the color of the steel for forging-welding-heat treating They would only do this during a clear full moon as the light was always the same thus keeping the control of the steel that they needed,kind of like us now that heat treat at certain times or with certain ligths on...again my thoughts...

Anybody else have any we can try and figure out ..... or want to tell their own little practices to keep everything constant everytime.This goes for grinding as well,or do you do anything special due to being superstitious and know you will mess up if you dont do it the same everytime....

This could get fun:D
Bruce
 
Man, you covered the big two I've heard. I'd definitely like to hear some more if they're out there! I don't do anything in particular because of superstition. Well, that's not true, I like to rough out the handle slabs prior to HT because for some reason it makes me think that it won't warp or get screwed up after the slabs are ear marked. Although this doesn't always work out.....
 
I cant really think of very many except the one where if you cut yourself a little on the finger, it will "baptize" the blade so it won't cut you by mistake. I have never tried this but i figure that only if you get cut do you realize that it should be avoided. (I'm not telling people to cut themselves though!)
 
TekSec said:
Man, you covered the big two I've heard. I'd definitely like to hear some more if they're out there! I don't do anything in particular because of superstition. Well, that's not true, I like to rough out the handle slabs prior to HT because for some reason it makes me think that it won't warp or get screwed up after the slabs are ear marked. Although this doesn't always work out.....
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i do this because i think that the glue will adhere better.
 
Quenching the blade by plunging it into a human body. (live) Don't try this at home!!!!
 
I think your on the rite track Bruce, anouther is the "Prayer" while harding and tempering. Sounds like a timed interuped quench to me, and a way to time tempering.

Anouther though of only forging facing north goes back to lighting, the sun rises and sets in east and west, if you forge North or South your never looking directly into the sun.
 
About forging to the north.... magnetic north? Perhaps the steel is pulled by the magnetic field? Every thing is aligned the yin and the yang..... How does the pigeon find its way home over hundreds of unknown miles? I think there may be some possible truth to the forging to the north...

Forging on the full moon may be a bit more about conservation both in the fuel and the body........ The work needed to build the needed heat and to work the iron in the cool of the night b'neath the heaven light...... always facing the northern star.....
 
Will52100 said:
I think your on the rite track Bruce, anouther is the "Prayer" while harding and tempering. Sounds like a timed interuped quench to me, and a way to time tempering.

Anouther though of only forging facing north goes back to lighting, the sun rises and sets in east and west, if you forge North or South your never looking directly into the sun.
Click to expand...

Wow!

The argument that forging North - South in alignment with the earths magnetic flux lines made better grain structure , always made me think someone is going to try and sell something.

But you nailed it! Shoeing horses as a mainstay here, I never put it together till your post.

It is almost subliminal when I set my swing-arm forge and anvil stump up for a days worth of shoeing.

Inside or out, if your facing north, the sun is at your back or a combination of quartering from behind,,,, ask a photographer why, you can simply see the hammer strikes better with the sun at your back.

Another aspect is the heat, noon day sun is hot most of the year,,, swinging a hammer is a good way to learn how to shave a couple degrees,,,, the sun on your back just seems cooler,,,,,,, in reverse, if you wanted to warm by the sun, we would face it.

Interesting thread!
 
Very cool thoughts,This is what I was wanting to hear.I hadnt even thought about the sun light hitting differently...

What about using cow urine gathered at a certain time of year,do you think it could be from certain vegitation the cow is eating at the certain time of year thus making a sort of brine solution for the quench which works better than what it ate in a different pasture.

Human Blood,is that to baptize the blade or give it a taste of what is to come...

I agree the prayer during the quench does sound like a good timing for a dissrupted quench or just a good reference for the length of the quench...

This is really getting cool,and see we all just thought that these things were old wise tales and more of a joke.

How many of you do things without thinking that would almost make you acting ritualistic about the way you make your knives,bet we all have our own little quirks we do without thinking.
Bruce
 
I do the prayer thing whether its a forged blade going into parks or a CPM drop point hunter going between my plates. I get on my knees to pray though just before quenching a clay coated blade :o. I pray for 1st, no cracks or warps and 2nd a wicked Hamon. I know prayer is not normally done to ask for wicked things ;), in this case though, I know he understands :D To me, knifemaking & smithing still holds much mystical, magical and spiritual feelings ..... everytime ;) ! Good post Bruce :thumbup:
 
David Wesner said:
I do the prayer thing whether its a forged blade going into parks or a CPM drop point hunter going between my plates. I get on my knees to pray though just before quenching a clay coated blade :o. I pray for 1st, no cracks or warps and 2nd a wicked Hamon. I know prayer is not normally done to ask for wicked things ;), in this case though, I know he understands :D To me, knifemaking & smithing still holds much mystical, magical and spiritual feelings ..... everytime ;) ! Good post Bruce :thumbup:
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David

If I may?
There is no wickedness in a blade, currant political views would like us to think that however.

Isaiah 54:16
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.​

Smiths have been the pilers of communities and villages since the dawn of civilization. Da Donald says it best:

Surrounded-Blacksmith-strip_1b.jpg
 
CrowValleyForge said:
David

If I may?
There is no wickedness in a blade, currant political views would like us to think that however.
Click to expand...

There is if the hamon looks good enough and has a lot of activity. As in "That is a wicked looking hamon" (translation : "that is a very nice looking hamon" ) Just slang friend ;)
 
How about the myth of grinding a blade naked?
According to Darrel Ralph this technique teaches one to be verrrryyyyy careful! :D
 
A prayer holds the Intent of the smith; focuses the concentration of the maker.
For example, one of my favorite "chants" when forging (intoned sub-vocally):
"Please don't let me screw up....Please don't let me screw up....Please don't let me screw up....etc." :D
(Feel free to replace the word "screw" with any word that you deem more appropriate.)
 
The greatest (and hard to kill) myth is EDGE PACKING, to create a denser (and harder) edge metal.

What is actually does is allow you to refine the edge and smooth out some of those big hammer dents. The thermal cycling also refines the grain.
Stacy
 
I have been reading Manfred Sachse's Damascus Steel, Myth, History, Technology, Applications. Many of the myths originate from the secret nature of the smith. Much of what the smith does is in a dark secluded realm. The general population has little or no understanding of what is going on inside the smithy. Therefor many superstitions have become prevalent and bordering on truth. The myth that steel has mystical powers is a great one. We still embrace the mystical power of steel. We search for the absolute best (or more) we can get out of it. We search for that perfect product that will never need sharpening even after dressing out 1000 deer and the breaking down of 10x that many box's. We need to always strive for perfection but even steel has limits.

Chuck
 
bladsmth said:
The greatest (and hard to kill) myth is EDGE PACKING, to create a denser (and harder) edge metal.

What is actually does is allow you to refine the edge and smooth out some of those big hammer dents. The thermal cycling also refines the grain.
Stacy
Click to expand...

Yeah, when I told my friend that i bought some O1 tool steel for a knife, he told me that to make it awesome, heat it red hot, the hit the edge of the blank with a hammer. I told him that edge packing is a myth, but he didn't listen. :(
 
Do you guys who forge your blades make cuts at the bottom of your aprons?

Like in the legend of Saint Clement? See even though I stock remove, i readz 2 :D.


Wouldn't you naturally stand in the same spot at your workspace over time?

And if they forged at night, wouldn't the moon be like the only way to see where you put your chisles and hammers and whatnot? Maybe someone tripped over something and fell into the fire.

I hear alot about quenching in blood, but that's probably just dark ages thinking there was magic in it.
 
Havent heard the one about the apron...Have to look that one up.

Yes you do eventually get into a habit when working,But to always rememeber to stand one way from the time your taught it is easier to get into the habit.

The fire light will let you see the shop well enough to work,but it is not a consistant light source as the flames get bigger and smaller as you work,it is the consistant back lighting from the moon you want so you see the color of the steel in the fire the same everytime.

Blood would be another form of a salt solution or mineral solution and would give a faster - slower quench just as different solutions today.If you ever talk to your knives and cut yourself as you work it seems the knife can become mean and cut everybody exceot the pperson the knife was made for (I have one I did this with that I wont allow back in the shop)I have my superstitions just as I bet everybody else does...It seems if I dont have certain things set up properly or do things a certain way everytime everything just messes up.

Good thoughts,
Bruce
 
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