myths-legends-and rituals about knifemaking

I have heard a few guys say that they quenched in a brine solution and never had cracking problems.

However, they were quick to say that the only way it would work was to make the solution from collected "rain" water.
 
I still trying to collect a couple of gallons of urine from a virgin, when she is facing north. Hell!!! I would take it north, south, east or west. :eek::eek:HEHHEHEHE!!!
 
Kevin,

Respctfully, this thread is called: myths-legends-and rituals about knifemaking. The chicken poop story, as reiterated by Sachse, seems to be a perfect fit for the discussion.

I'm not affirming it's veracity by disclosing the 'logic' as stated in Sachse's book and that the university reported as it did.
It's a fact that Sasche discusses it, and that the University did their thing and theorized as they did. I haven't read their data, but only know what Sachse says about it--essentially that washing steel grindings in acid and smelting them in a carboniferous, nitride rich atmosphere (provided by chicken droppings) was of benefit according to them.

To me it's all part of a fun and interesting story, but we're still in the context of a discussion of "Myth and Legend." If someone was concluding, "Ah, the old ways are best, after all," I'd defer to industry over legend and stress the distinction too, of course.
 
Indeed, I own the book myself and I feel that Manfred was correct in including the topic in his book as it is part of bladesmithing history and interesting for discussion. I just have to wonder what they do at universities that they have time to spend on analyzing fairy tales, and why do we selectively choose which fairy tales to rationalize? I have seen no papers written on the lung capacity of wolves versus the structural strength of straw, wood or bricks.

This thread is indeed called "myths-legends-and rituals about knifemaking" so this is entirely appropriate for this to be here. I am not critcizing attempts to rationalize the stories as much as I am fascinated by observing the behavior. It is as if we have a deep need to validate the myths in some way, a desire for them to be more real. That would be a topic more worthy of university academics. I myself get angry every time they carbon date the Turin shroud or comb Loch Ness. My world is much more fun with these mysteries as is and I don't want to know the truth as sometimes believing in a harmless magic just makes the world more interesting.
 
Well here's a myth that is not nearly so fun as those discussed so far ...

Folks seem to believe you cannot achieve welding temperature with a natural-gas forge -- and it's not just bladesmiths.

I had an engineer with more degrees than a thermometer tell me straight out, it can't be done.:eek:

I decided to defer to the daily experience of industry on this one and for convenience, I switch to natural gas for my forge and salt pots (on low, residential pressure, no less). I found it works just fine with almost no forge modifications. (It took a little longer to hit temp, but after that, no problem.):thumbup:

I quietly reported this to a friend at a hammer-in sort of gathering, not thinking it too important. My friend found this more interesting than I had expected. He mentions my claim to have forge welded with natural gas to a few guys and before long everyone's talking about it.:confused: (Seems they had been discussing it before I arrived)
Word gets back to an ABS MS in attendance (who's name many would recognize) who pretty much stopped everything to announce that 'There was apparently someone running around claiming to have forge welded with natural gas, but don't believe it. It CAN'T BE DONE.'
This caused a small stir and everyone's looking at me! I said sheepishly, "I just did it yesterday." He said again It couldn't be done. I shrugged and that was it.

It's been a few years since then, but most of those guys probably still think I was making it up. :rolleyes:
 
I think it is cool to think of it all as magic and Kevin does make a very good point.Analizing some things to death just takes the fun out of it.I was just wondering when i started this thread at how much story telling really had a meaning that was useful...

I know I am almost ritualistic in the way I do many things in the shop and if it isnt all done the same or something is out of place I freak out...

Think about it,someone comes to your shop and watches you do things,they go home and cannot produce the same results,do they think if they do this a certain way like you did it will help,instead of figuring that they should practice their own tecnique more to get the same results as you.

I used to weld up all kinds of rusty metal into Damascus,was told it wouldnt work,but I did it.Had a friend that would only use new shiny steel for his,when I asked why it was because he wanted to cut out any and all variables that could lead to a bad billet,when he could mess up during the welding process at anytime himself and ruin the new steel...

Just seems old legends and myths may have some meaning,but I am with Kevin in the fact I like to hear them...

Bruce
 
I started to build a forge that ran on waste veggy oil...got it to work some but decided to spend more time on knives instead of experimenting...I still think it would work as they make burners to smelt alluminum and some other scrap metals,even to make cast iron...
I may try again someday,for now I just make charcoal and forge.

Bruce
 
Mr Sachse did not say the chicken poop was fact. In the book he explores many myths and legends and tries to understand were they came from. This thought process is nice but as Kevin said sometimes it is just a story.

There was a thread a while back that discussed the statement that Nickel could not be forge welded to itself.

Chuck
 
Since we are talking about forges and welding, how about confirming or busting a myth? It is a very old accepted bit of wisdom in our business that if you drop a penny or other bit of copper into a forge (coal or gas) you are done welding. What has been the experience of you folks?

I for one have welded steel in a green flame over a puddle of copper goo in my gas forge after a mokume accident, and I know many others who have had no problem welding in a non-ferrous contaminated forge. I think this is a myth worthy of exploration as to whether it is true and if not what could some of the rationale behind it be.
 
My wife does lampwork (glass) and the flame is often used to deposit non-ferrous metals onto the hot glass surface--a technique called 'fuming'. You just wave the silver, gold or whatever, in the flame in front of the glass (both metal and glass are in the flame) and it's carried via fumes through the flame and onto the glass which reacts accordingly.

I would guess the thought is that when the copper fumes in a contaminated forge, some adheres to the steel resulting in unspecified problems. I'm not sure how much trouble it could cause, however, considering they flash welding rod with copper to prevent it from rusting in storage.:confused:

I would think there could be a health hazard related to breathing copper fumes, though.

Just my random thoughts.
 
I believe surely ancient smiths had their P.R. methods, and hype was as good a selling method then as it is today. Perhaps much better, as ignorance was much more widespread.
But I also believe some of these concepts may derive from the "thought frame" of those times, so different from ours. You see, we are taught the cientific method since we are little children, and it's so natural to us that we can't even conceive a different way of thinking (even if sometimes we relapse in "myth" and "magic" without realizing it).
But the scientific method is a relative novelty.In the middle ages there was no such thing. This doesn't mean the smiths of old times were ignorant or stupid: they just didn't have the anaythic methods we are accustomed to. An attentive, analythic, scientific smith lof today would almost certainly have done as well in those times, compared with other smiths of the same period. He would have been able to detect that when he worked in a certain way he did better than when he worked in some othe way, he just won't have been capable of analyzing the "why" of some effects, because he lacked both intellectual and technical instruments.
A skilled, clever smith would have had a mind capable of observing that certain work he did was better than other, and would have had the curiosity to ask himself why. He would have started observing what he did and when (without any instrument, just by eyeballing the conditions, remember) and would have noted that when he forged facing north, the work was better. When he heat treated in the dark, the work was better.
Today, with analythical, SCIENTIFIC mind we can infer that facing north allowed the light to hit the piece about the same way, and that the smith projected his shade on the piece, allowing a better view of the blade color, or that forging by night you can better see the color (no temometers in the middle ages) and that a full moon was obviously useful to see what you were doing.
But in those times, it was just a matter of seeing that certain ways of forging worked better than others, and the intellectual tools available didn't allow the smith to actually analyze why they did, he could just tell that some ways were "right" and others were "wrong". He probably "seasoned" these intuitions with what notions the knowledge of those times allowed, and so he did something because "it pleased the Gods", even if it was actually because doing so had a certain, physical and beneficial effect: the reasons were fictional, the effects were real.

When he would teach his apprentice how to forge, he would probably tell him just to do so and so, without explaining much, because he wouldn't be able to explain much to himself in the first place, and because usually that was the way of teaching, and how his master taught him the trade, and so the myth would be transmitted and maintained, with each smith adding a little bit to the tale.

So, while some myths are probably just old-timers hype, others may stem from an attempt made by some brilliant smith devoid of modern thought tools of finding an explanation to why some of the work he did was better than other...
 
You know after reading through this whole thread just now, it got me thinking.
I absolutly despise the idea that in knifemaking there is still an abundance of misinformation and myths. It drives me nuts. I like fantasy, but not when I'm working, and not in my business.
However, I have many practices that have become almost rituals, especially when making mokume, because unlike damascus the fusing is a one-time deal, you can't just flux it and stick it back together like you can with damascus. When making copper/nickel silver mokume I always light the forge and then stack the materials and put them in the plates. I have learned through experience that this is just the right amount of time for the forge to warm. Then I put the billet in the forge and light up a cigarette. I have found that this too is a timing issue. Just after I butt out the smoke I go over to the forge and check the billet. Within 2 minutes it is fused and ready to be taken out of the plates. However, other than in this post and the one student who has seen me do this, I have not promoted this method at all. I do not use this as a marketing technique. I DO NOT insist that anyone else adopt this method or any other that I use as THE way to do things. There is no magic or mystery to the things I do, only methods that work for me, developed over the course of my time as a maker.
Thanks,
Del
 
I remember a book saying that in the days of old, smiths would protect their business by making it seem like something that only the godly could accomplish.
This was an older book, and it was addressing the lack of information on the subject. Now, if i wanted to know what the mastersmiths are doing all around the world, i fire up the internet.
 
Myth survives today because the human mind is made to appreciate stories. With stories we transfer experience, and the storytellers have been always highly valued in all kind of societes, from the stone chippers to space age, from the far east to america.
We just like a good story.
The other reason is that the tech equipment needed to take guesswork out of smithing is very expensive, very few can afford it, and even less have the time and competence to use it.
So, we mostly do by trial and error, ask others how it's done, and take that for good, which encourages "stories".
The key for myth to prosper is passive, acrytical acceptance of the information received.
We may not have the funds or the time to test everything, but rational evaluation of what we are told, on the basis of our knowledge, is free and usually doesn't require more than a few seconds of rational analysis.
Obtaining enough data on the subject to do an informed rational evaluation does require time, but it's well worth it.

As for myth to keep competition out, well, it's just the other face of the hype medal. Sell more on one side, discourage competition on the other.
 
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