N.H. toughens up its negligent hiker laws

Uh.

The answer is the polar opposite.

Stop rescuing them and let them die.

I know, I know, it sounds harsh. But charging people for rescues is going to curb idiots from hiking in the back country like speeding tickets curb speeders.

Stop expanding rescue teams. Stop pouring taxpayers money down the rathole that has become "First responders" and let people pay the consequences for their own actions. Have a sensible sized group of individuals for Rescue, Fire and Police and let the rest fall where they may. We have told people to "Not feed the bears" enough and we have placed enough signs that say "Caution, Avalanche zone".

The cold facts are that everybody can't be smart enough to live. Idiots have a higher likelihood of dying and I am pretty comfortable with that.

hooooboooooy, that illicited swear words and curses when it was read locally by a few of the 1St Responders i know........Its a money game, and they like money, new equipment every year and being the ones in charge........they did not like the idea at all of reduced funding, even if it was just a post on the web...... :eek:

The cold facts are that everybody can't be smart enough to live. Idiots have a higher likelihood of dying and I am pretty comfortable with that.

as harsh as that sounds, thumbs up to natural selection.
 
As someone from NH, I see the stories of hikers having to be rescued, etc. all the time, just like in any other state.

Alot of these are due to negligence from out-of-state hikers or tourists who underestimate their conditions. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of locals who do the same thing.

I used to climb Mt Monadnock every year in May. It's not a horribly difficult hike, and at one time was, I believe, the 2nd most hiked mountain in the world. I'm no expert, I'm hardly a novice, but I always prepared to the best of my ability with maps, compass, water, cold weather gear, etc., to the point that my wife would laugh at me for carrying so much gear. It would often be around 70 deg F at the base, and 30 to 40 F at the summit. It always shocked me to see people hiking in flip-flops, shorts and T-shirts, no jackets, no water, with very young babies, or 85 year old Grandmas with canes. But even as prepared as I like to think I am, I could easily be the one with a broken leg in need of aid.

I think that while there are cases where it is subjective how prepared a person or group was before they needed help, there are blaring cases where the people or groups had no business being where they were, unprepared. Just like there are some laws to punish people for filing frivolous lawsuits, I think these types of laws for the outdoors are important to protect not only the hikers/toursists themselves, but also the lives of those who are rescuing them. It's a darn shame when a rescuer gets injured or loses their life trying to rescue someone where in most cases the whole ordeal could have been avoided by better preparation.

Cell phones and GPS units give people too much courage in the outdoors, thinking that help is just a phone call away.

I am a big proponent of the Personal Locator Beacons. I think they should be mandatory for any person hiking/camping in harsh weather climates, where unplanned time exposed to the elements could have dire consequences. Yeah, it might give the hikers a sense of courage like cell phones would, but I'd like to think that if they needed to be rescued, help would probably be able to find them quicker as a result of the PLBs.

While I am for limiting laws that infringe on our liberties, it doesn't look like most of the states with these laws are arbitrarily fining/suing people on a whim. What I am for is protecting the lives of the rescuers (professional and otherwise) from exposure to unnecessary dangers.

Good topic...

Glenn
 
Taxes are paid to fund the emergency services and it is expected that they do their job as well as they are able to do with the resource they have. Now if we start measuring and regulating people's actions, then we are having to pay for regulation and enforcement of human behavior, both monetarilly and by loss of liberty.

Much of our money goes to regulation and enforcement of just about everything already, leaving less and less for services people really need, like infrastructure.

Bridges collapse, and they will make the news only briefly. Then its back to the same old news about human behavior, and how can it be changed through bans, regulation, enforcement and how this will make our lives so perfect, so safe, so nice,etc etc.

Perhaps the best way to ensure that accidents such as these don't ever happen again would be to just have the nanny states we have today introduce legislation that will ensure all people stay in their homes wrapped in bedclothes and never step outside again. And if they do even for just a moment- just throw the book at them. This is what the world is coming to, and swiftly.

This doesn't wash well with liberty, something that is in great shortage today.

People see these incidents, many learn, some don't and that is life accept it or not.
 
I don't see a problem with the law, like Glenbad stated it will just make people think twice and be prepared.

Even if I was unprepared and in a survival situation; I would not give a crap about paying a bill "IF" I was lucky enough to be rescued.

As for my tax dollars......

I rather have my tax money go to some unprepared hiker than a politicians limo service, or a family who has been on welfare for there whole life and has no intention of getting off of it.

If my tax money doesn't go to SAR, it will go someplace else; its not like there going to lower my taxes cause people will be paying for rescues......
 
If people don't know about basic preparation for a hike, they almost certainly won't know anything about the law either. So it won't act as a deterrent to going into the wilderness under prepared. In effect this is a revenue generating plan.

It might be more effective to place large, prominent signs at the locations where people park and begin their walks, listing the basic equipment people should carry and recommending that people without it don't stray far from their cars.

Andy
 
they do that here on the North Shore of BC........even have Hiker Registration boxes. maybe one out of 20 hikers will actually be equipped properly and fill out the SAR info forms and provide a contact number.

the rest trallalalalalala down/up the trails in their city clothes, ipods, cells phones and little bottle of yuppie water, oblivious to the weather that can change from hot and sunny to snow and torrential rains in seconds.

tralalalalalala tralalalalala but they have cell phones, just dial 911 for the wilderness taxi pickup.....

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
they do that here on the North Shore of BC........even have Hiker Registration boxes. maybe one out of 20 hikers will actually be equipped properly and fill out the SAR info forms and provide a contact number.

the rest trallalalalalala down/up the trails in their city clothes, ipods, cells phones and little bottle of yuppie water, oblivious to the weather that can change from hot and sunny to snow and torrential rains in seconds.

tralalalalalala tralalalalala but they have cell phones, just dial 911 for the wilderness taxi pickup.....

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
Lol, maybe you should stand there with a hosepipe and soak them as they pass. If they complain say they'll get wet anyway further up and the wind chill will be worse. :D

Incidentally, Mount Snowdon, the highest mountain in Britain outside Scotland, has a narrow-gauge railway going up to the summit. I rode it once, it was a sunny afternoon at the end of June, temperature in the 70's. Even so I thought I was adequately dressed for the summit in woolies and waterproofs. It was effing FREEZING up there. I looked at the view through the swirling clouds and fresh breeze for maybe 5 minutes before going back inside!
 
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It might be more effective to place large, prominent signs at the locations where people park and begin their walks, ...

Functional illiteracy: the ability to ignore any information that might require an unaccustomed effort. :cool:
 
It might be more effective to place large, prominent signs at the locations where people park and begin their walks, listing the basic equipment people should carry and recommending that people without it don't stray far from their cars.
I've been hiking in upstate NY, and many trailheads will incude a billboard with a summary of what you should have with you.

That being said, perhaps people also need to use some common sense.
 
As one who has hiked extensively in New Hampshire’s White Mountains, and have seen the Bozo’s that need help just to find there way out of the wilderness on a good day, I am in favor of this kind of legislation.

People need to think about what there doing and have to be held responsible for their own actions.

We, the taxpayers, should not have to shoulder the financial burden of fools that don’t take nature seriously.

At the same time, I applaud the SAR personnel for doing a fine job under often hazardous conditions.




"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike
 
That being said, perhaps people also need to use some common sense.

and if that fails, BILL EM for the risk involved by the searchers who's lives get put at risk each and every time they go to rescue ClueLess Spencer types. Hit em hard on the pocketbook and make em LEARN that common sense.

TOUGH LOVE!
 
Even if I was unprepared and in a survival situation; I would not give a crap about paying a bill "IF" I was lucky enough to be rescued.


Come on Tony, :jerkit: …you unprepared? :confused: I don’t think so. :eek:


tony081210eo8.jpg


Photo: Tony, ...Connecticut's own Ray Mears. :rolleyes:




"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike
 
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RNR, I have no expectation that the government should or would protect me, or anyone else. Originally, I had written a long drawn out rant, but condensed it so as not to seem like I am ungreatfull to the people who actually do put there lives on the line for others. And I agree with you 100% - Live free or die means just that. That New Hampshire, the "Live Free or Die" state should impose this bill, or law, or whatever, is IRONIC. The "corral" statement comes from the charges the governments either federal or state take when taxes, fees and the like are imposed on the people for things ( extra park fees, recreation fees, taxes on sporting goods, ammunition, arrows,) that are already taxed. The effect is many cannot afford liberty financially, and are therefore "corralled" into their homes. Yes, it is over simplified, but seems to be happening.

Anyway, My intent was to say what you did, but you were more effective.
 
If a person goes into the mountains and properly leaves the correct information and needs help, the proper authorities notified and the rescue team set in motion but the person dies anyway, can the family sue? My guess is no, but they will be billed anyway.
 
Doc-Canada as always makes excellent sense. Attending a survival school or course with community service as well as paying for the rescue makes sense to me. Stupidity can not be legislated away. Levying a fine for being unprepared is subjective--members of this forum could carry less than many others and be well prepared--many people carry gear they can not use--common sense is extremely uncommon to the majority.
 
Sick. It's the kind of jackboot mentality I expect in my country. I always hold out a little bit more hope for liberty in America.

I think this is one of the saddest comments I have seen so far on the subject. When did liberty get confused with taking personal responsibility for ones actions? I mean that IS what this is all about. People being responsible for going out into the wilderness unprepared.

We ARENT infringing on your liberty to GO and hike/climb/whatever whenever, however you want. Those freedoms are intact. But if you choose to ignore the HUNDREDS of warnings posted, ignore all the public information provided to you free of charge, choose to ignore the guidance of others, then who's fault is it? No where does it say that the services will NOT be provided, but people will think twice about heading out without so much as a powerbar if they realize that calling 911 might not be a free service. We will come get you, dumbass or not.

The whole "part of our taxes" thing gets right under my skin, cause we in NH pay the second highest property taxes in the country, so unless you actually live here and end up paying for the rescues, your just :jerkit:

BTW, Monadnock is the #1 most climbed mountain in the world, according to NHPR or WKNE I cant remember which. And if you were trying to get help from there during our last storm, the EOC and Cell's where down for days, as was the power to a lot in the state.

EDIT:As far as people being "corralled" into their homes, well NO IS SAYING THEY CANT PREPARED BEFORE THEY LEAVE home, are they?
 
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An important point to consider;

New Hampshire’s Fish and Game Department for years has been charging unprepared hikers for the cost of rescuing them from the woods. It now has the power to revoke their driver’s licenses if the fines go unpaid, and can fine those who act only negligently instead of the harder to prove standard of recklessness.

Just this late summer, at the top of Cannon Mountain, I saw a mountain employee and a Fish and Game Employee trying to convince 4 young people (18-20 year olds), that they should "absolutely NOT attempt to hike down from the top of the mountain as they were dressed!". Evidently, these 4 had taken the Tram to the top of the mountain and thought they could hike back down. The 4 were hasidic Jews dressed in smooth leather soled business shoes, black dress slacks, long-sleeved white shirts, covered by a light weight, black business suit type jacket (essentially, the very common attire that they might wear to go to temple in). They had no supplies with them whatsoever.

The fish and game officer told them that the trail was dangerous and that they were not properly dressed or prepared for the hike. They insisted they could make it. The fish and game officer called over the Mountain employee (who happens to be my brother in law and SAR member), and he too, tried to explain the danger to the 4 of them. They insisted that would go anyway. Right then, the Fish and Game officer told them that if they required rescue or SAR in ANY capacity, that they would be charged for every penny of the costs. The 4 took off on their hike in their street shoes. It took them a long time to reach the bottom of the mountain, but they all arrived safely.

Right after these 4 left on the hike, a young couple with a child in a stroller headed down the same trail. The Fish and Game officer and my brother in law gave them the same warnings. They decided to take the tram back down instead of hiking.

These sorts of situations are common... especially on Mt. Washington. My brother works ski patrol in winter and as SAR during summer. He tells people they are not prepared... and then ends up rescuing them. THESE are the sorts of people who get charged for the expense of their rescue.

When my brother goes out to rescue someone in Tuckerman's Ravine on Mt. Washington in spring or late summer, he never knows what he will find. If they find a well prepared, well equipped hiker who's just lost their way, or was injured... no problem, no fees. If they find a guy in street shoes and shorts with a backpack which contains a granola bar and a six of beer... he's gonna' pay for his rescue.

In past, they had to prove that they guy with the granola bar and beer was "reckless"... a VERY hard standard to meet (nearly impossible). With the change in law, "negligent" is much easier to prove... and THAT is the real benefit to the change.

The SAR guys that I know, don't TRY or HOPE to be able to recover costs from those they rescue... but they DO hope that if they risk their own lives to save an idiot (6 of beer/granola boy), that because of the fee reimbursements, the guy will never do it again.
 
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