N.H. toughens up its negligent hiker laws

Bushman5 said:
they should lose their homes and be banned form ever setting foot into the woods again.

:mad:
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You have got to be fucking kidding me man. With all of the waste in government, people being lost, even the stupid ones, are the least of the worries. I would like to see some serious trimming of politician's salaries before they even talk about this crap. It's always the regular guy's fault for all of the ills of society, that's a bunch of shit my friend.
 
Thats why I say charge everyone by default, have the first responders determine whether the service should be comped and let the burden of proving the you were adequately prepared fall on the rescued.

The problem is people feel entitled to these services and rely on them as a first response to any problem they encounter instead of taking any personal precautions.
 
I would say better screening on who goes up these mountains, or where ever. Are'nt there more people watching who goes on these trips?
Its not very often I've com acrost someone else on a trip OUTSIDE of a park or reserve. If you halfway up a mountain, and need a copter to come get you, you better have a good reason, other wise, yes pay the bill.
 
Ankar Sheng said:
The problem is people feel entitled to these services and rely on them as a first response to any problem they encounter instead of taking any personal precautions.
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True, but I can garuntee that once people know they are gonna be paying out the ass if they abuse it, it will stop pretty quick.
 
By the way, the reason this whole concept cranks me up so bad is the fact that about 17 years ago, they had a news program locally about writing legislation. This is a decade and a half ago so I'm sure it is much more expensive nowadays and Maryland is a really small State. In order to introduce a bill into the Maryland State Legislature so every State Representative and every State Senator and all of their associated aides and personnel could have a copy along with the calculated time based on people's salaries, etc., it costs about $50,000.00

It came up because Maryland had attempted for about ten years in a row to pass failed "assault weapons" legislation and the subject of government waste came up.

Now, imagine all of the bills, some of which are just pet bitching and moaning projects from special interest groups and their lackeys in government, imagine how much all of that costs all of our State, County and City Legislatures and then include the federal government. I'm sure it's the same way in Canada.

Charging people and making them lose their homes is just a slap in the face. Government wastes so much damned money because it's our money, condemning welfare or things like this is absurd.
 
For those that want to say SAR should ALWAYS be free because your taxes pay for it "like police and fire", think on this:

I don't know about where you all live, but around me, frivolous use of such services gets you charged.

If you call the police (911) for, say, an intruder. If they show up and there's no sign of an intruder, or it turns out to be the neighbor's kitty, you get two of those for free per year, on the third time onward, you get charged for a frivolous call.

If you call the fire department and it's determined it's your fault the fire started (like you set your woods on fire because you were burning brush in your backyard without using a burn barrel, you get charged.

Know why? Because of stupid people who call 911 for no reason. For stupid people who have uncontrolled fires and call out the fire dept every time.

In both cases, those people called out are called away from being able to respond to what may be a real emergency.

Your taxes DON'T pay for frivolous use of police and fire, why would they pay for frivolous use of SAR?

Like a previous poster said, there's a difference between calling SAR because you took a spill and broke a leg and can't get out, and being too lazy to bring a light to get out in the dark, and calling SAR for that.
 
Don, completely disregarding one problem because it lives in the shadow of a larger issue is whats absurd. This isn't even just a matter of dollars and cents, SAR workers are put at risk during these rescues, even if the legislation costs more to put in place than it recovers from fees there are still other factors which arent so easily accounted for, like the number of times SAR workers weren't put at risk because someone better prepared them self knowing they'd be responsible for their own rescue should they need it, or some much more deserving individual getting the assistance they need because the SAR team isnt preoccupied saving someone who shouldnt need saving in the first place if they had any sense of responsibility.
 
I live in a suburban county and in the times we have had to call 911 for people scoping windows and doors with a damned flashlight, they took so long to arrive that the person was long gone before they got there. Happened many, many times. Am I supposed to be charged for shitty service? I mean, on one level, you are right, if someone calls in because they couldn't find their way out because they didn't have a flashlight or something equally assinine, they should be fined. But fifty grand? Lose your home? That's just bullshit. There are quite a few discussions in here about people being allergic to bees and going out anyway, are they supposed to lose their home as well? I mean, this shit is ludicrous. The government wastes so much damned money people concentrate on the smallest of things.

This problem is NOTHING to the taxpayer in the grand scheme of things and I do mean NOTHING. It's not even on the radar screen of "waste." To think that someone could potentially lose their home because they were a dumbass when some asshole is dumping raw sewage into a stream and gets a fine that is so small in comparison to the cost of dumping it properly that it makes it profitable to break the law...is nightmarish.

The same people passing laws like this are blowing tax money like they have their own printing press.
 
DON REARIC, my statement that you commented on was posted out of frustration with the idiots that continually venture forth into the woods unprepared and then use SAR to get out. We have so many of these types here in the Lower Mainland of BC that do this every year (EDIT, we JUST had one in the last day) . Frankly it pisses me off, it pisses off the RCMP, it pisses off the taxpayers, it pisses off the SAR folks and other emergency agencies.

Hit the offenders hard, warnings have failed, news topics on the subject locally have failed, but one thing that NEVER fails to get peoples attention in such matters is loss of money or things (cars/homes) for their actions. (kinda like the drinking driving program we have - drink and drive conviction = lose your car and license for life)

my other post (the humorous preachin' post) was some light hearted humour on the subject.
 
Well, I never said they should lose their homes , just pay the cost of the service.
I hear you on the government waste, but don't want to go into it here and make this thread get the lockdown.
 
Ankar Sheng said:
Don, completely disregarding one problem because it lives in the shadow of a larger issue is whats absurd. This isn't even just a matter of dollars and cents, SAR workers are put at risk during these rescues, even if the legislation costs more to put in place than it recovers from fees there are still other factors which arent so easily accounted for, like the number of times SAR workers weren't put at risk because someone better prepared them self knowing they'd be responsible for their own rescue should they need it, or some much more deserving individual getting the assistance they need because the SAR team isnt preoccupied saving someone who shouldnt need saving in the first place if they had any sense of responsibility.
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The situations that put SAR Personnel at risk are probably the more serious situations where someone wasn't at fault anyway. Not YOU, but in the general conversation, you can't on one hand give the example that someone cannot make it out of the woods because they were stupid and didn't have a flashlight and then on the other hand say that is some incredibly dangerous situation for highly trained SAR Personnel. When you're talking about inclement weather or falls into ravines, etc., something that would be exempt by all but the most hardheaded of people, those are the most dangerous.
 
Bushman5 said:
Hit the offenders hard, warnings have failed, news topics on the subject locally have failed, but one thing that NEVER fails to get peoples attention in such matters is loss of money or things (cars/homes) for their actions.
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Yes, unless they can wave an Adeventure Medical Kits baggy full of stuff at the rescuers, I believe they should lose their home. What you suggest is so Draconian I can't even wrap my head around it.

Of course, you can have gear with you but, say, don't have a whistle and you break your leg and start fellating an acorn top...I would say they should lose their home for being an asshat. :D
 
Don Rearic said:
The situations that put SAR Personnel at risk are probably the more serious situations where someone wasn't at fault anyway. Not YOU, but in the general conversation, you can't on one hand give the example that someone cannot make it out of the woods because they were stupid and didn't have a flashlight and then on the other hand say that is some incredibly dangerous situation for highly trained SAR Personnel. When you're talking about inclement weather or falls into ravines, etc., something that would be exempt by all but the most hardheaded of people, those are the most dangerous.
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unfortunately, (and i hate to use the North Shore, BC Canada as the example yet AGAIN) we have BRUTAL terrain here, even in the warm dog days of summer. EVERY search call here puts the local SAR team at risk, simply due to the extreme terrain. Throw in nightfall, rain, the snow fogs, snow, sleet etc......

I dont know about NH's terrain, maybe its a lot gentler and less of a risk for the Teams searching....


Don Rearic said:
Yes, unless they can wave an Adeventure Medical Kits baggy full of stuff at the rescuers, I believe they should lose their home. What you suggest is so Draconian I can't even wrap my head around it.

Of course, you can have gear with you but, say, don't have a whistle and you break your leg and start fellating an acorn top...I would say they should lose their home for being an asshat. :D
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ok so maybe losing the home is a bit extreme, but I do think a hefty fine and education is required to end this use of 911/SAR as a taxi service when unprepared.... For Example....vancouver had a street racing problem in the late 90's/2000 (including a grandmother that was thrown over 400 feet by a 200km/h porshe, google Irene Thorpe) , once the Province starting revoking licenses, issuing liens on property held by the offender, and CRUSHING their $100,000+ modded rice rocket cars, the problem went away very fast, because no one wanted to pay the fines or lose their vehicle. I can see the same model working for dumbasses who go into the hills unprepared, ignore the posted signs and sign in boxes, and who go out of bounds on the ski hills. (in fact local hills have a ban for life if your caught out of bounds)

uh....acorn tops.....? :D:thumbup:
 
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I agree this is a small problem in the grand scheme of things, but in the world of SAR it isn't so trivial, and again, this is more than an issue of $, there are other more important factors at stake, money is just the only way to get people to open their eyes, cause obviously these yuppies dont give a crap about the SAR workers themselves.

IMO it's more about giving incentive to prevent these problems than it is recouping the money. And yes, a lot of fines for big companies are so nominal that its cheaper to break the law and pay the fine, but lets not ignore one problem in light of another. And yes again, the government seems to have little regard for our money, but should we put everything on hold until we restructure and completely reform the government?
 
Yuppies, like wall street criminals, don't give much of a shit about anything, let alone SAR Personnel.

I think if someone is stupid and retarded and called for (rescue) something equally stupid and retarded, they should be fined. You start talking thousands of dollars? We have enough bullshit going on with the big eating the little, we don't need more laws like that.

I have to look at "the grand scheme of things" because if I compartmentalize subjects and give them such specificity, in my opinion, that makes a person so specialized they are dumbed down. Waste does matter, corruption does matter, I don't think the "little guy," even when they are being a moron, should necessarily take the hit that some of you guys are advocating.
 
even if you are prepared, mentally and gear wise, shit still happens. Thats what the SAR teams are for, the police and so on. I've never called an ambulance for one reason, when I was growing up I didn't have the money to pay for one, neither did my parents. I've had sever breaks and Cuts off all kinds. I can't remeber the amount of trips I've made to the ER, driving my own ass or my girlfriend or whoever.

I can tell you one thing, If that law was in alberta, I wouldn't be calling for a rescue team unless it was a big enmergancy, being lost in my eyes doesn't happen very often nowa-days. A Gps will litraly get you out of any wheres on the face of this earth, if you dont have one a map and compass with do the same, if you dont know how to use one you should, and getting lost is your own fault.

What im saying is, if you hurt than yes call for help. But if your lost because you dont know how to use a compass, and no GPS s avalible thats your own damn fault, and no if you dont know how to use a compass dont go in the woods!
 
Don Rearic said:
Waste does matter, corruption does matter, I don't think the "little guy," even when they are being a moron, should necessarily take the hit that some of you guys are advocating.
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I can't agree with ya there Don, just because your the little guy (and no, not you personally) doesnt relinquish you from the punishments of being a moron. I could care less about how someone without money can't pay for something, if they abuse a service such as this, there are just as fualted as anyone else.
 
You're advocating debtor's prison at this point. That's not what this country is supposed to be about anyway.
 
...I pay taxes..when I do..for public services.
 
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