Name For a Japanese Wheel

I was going to suggest Sorel cement (Magnesium Oxychloride) as that's a traditional grinding wheel material, but the water cooling may be an issue, in that prolonged immersion in water can lead to leaching of magnesium chloride. With that speed of rotation (< 300rpm) and the size of the wheel, is water cooling really necessary? Grind and dip would be far far less frequent than the usual belt grinder and the advantage is you can cast your wheel fairly easily.
 
Do the math javand...even if the build of a laminated cloth disc 48"X4" wasn't insane, the amount of resin would be a lot more than 5 gallons.....about 20-30 gal. would be needed.

My original intention was to laminate the wheel in exterior plywood, using epoxy resin. Then to fully fiberglass the wheel. This should work fine, but my later plans for finding a wheel, axle, and tire are sounding better. The parts won't have to be machined or turned...and they will be perfectly matched and balanced. The axle and bearings will be a perfect fit for the wheel without any adapting....and easily replaced. The axle comes with a built in mounting plate made for heavy use and weight. Heck, it even could have a brake if desired. All parts are made to be used in a wet environment. All the parts can be sourced from a junk yard for $100.

I spoke to a friend who works on cars at a shop next to a junk yard about finding me the parts and he said, " Why not use a four wheel drive hub and power the wheel directly. That would save the need for a drive wheel?"
Dang, he may be dirty and all, but he sees the obvious. So we are looking into this route. He will keep an eye out for a big wheel and the mounting parts .
 
Keep us posted on this Stacy. Not knowing much about cars and their parts, I'm having a hard time envisioning what you're talking about. I'd love to see some WIP pics as you assemble this thing.
 
I spoke to a friend who works on cars at a shop next to a junk yard about finding me the parts and he said, " Why not use a four wheel drive hub and power the wheel directly. That would save the need for a drive wheel?"
Dang, he may be dirty and all, but he sees the obvious. So we are looking into this route. He will keep an eye out for a big wheel and the mounting parts .

I was thinking the same thing. The tire already comes round, and it has all the mounting you could need pre-designed and manufactured for you. Post pics when you are done please.
 
Why do I get an image of a '67 Chevy truck on cinder blocks with one wheel mounted in a kiddie pool with the other three wheels off?

:)
 
I was thinking the same thing. The tire already comes round, and it has all the mounting you could need pre-designed and manufactured for you. Post pics when you are done please.


You would think so, but there is no such thing as a round tire.

That's why I was thinking solid tire and the ability to tool post grind it on it's own bearings when it's together.
 
Do the math javand...even if the build of a laminated cloth disc 48"X4" wasn't insane, the amount of resin would be a lot more than 5 gallons.....about 20-30 gal. would be needed.


Actually 4 feet square by 4" thick is 5.25 cubic feet. At 7.48 gallons per cubic foot that is 39.49 or call it 40 gallons! 8 pails at $100 each!
 
Why do I get an image of a '67 Chevy truck on cinder blocks with one wheel mounted in a kiddie pool with the other three wheels off?

:)

And the engine can drive the wheel(s). Forget the cinder blocks, leave the tires on and put it on jack stands, weld the slip gears and then two craftsmen can work simultaneously, or you could have two grits at your pleasure. Comes with fuel reservoir and a handy 8 track player to entertain yourself while grinding! Portable too. Take the jackstands down and drive it to the next hammerin...

[smile]

Sorry Stacy, I could not resist...

Cannot wait to see your build.
 
You wouldn't need the total volume in resin, since you're laying up a large amount of that volume with cloth. Just sayin', but yeah, it'd be a lot.
 
sunray will make you a wheel BTW i asked abut it years ago on first seeing the fogg thread (its about the same cost as one of the stone wheels shipped to the US

i have a local shop that might be willing to make a 1 inch thick hub with a 3 inch rim fully welded and then i have to fins a place to true and ballance it (they know a place ) then rubber (maybe sunray will do that part )
i was also thinking abuoit using a 6 lug dakota spindle for the mount again i couldf direct drive the wheel off a junk yard half shaft
 
Stacy this is a great project and one I am considering myself. However let me lighten your load a little bit. Both my brother and uncle worked in the Glass/Glazing industry. it is a industry standard to use wet belt grinders using 4" wide silicon carbide belts. you can even get Diamond belts. ( I have a 220 grit diamond myself) You do not go through belts on a wet belt system NEARLY as often as you do a dry belt system. So the higher cost is well worth it. CR Laurence is the best place to order belts from. 5 per box at about $70.00 per box. and grits from 60 - cork. Now may I also suggest instead of making a wheel, Use a Leaf spring as a platten. they are already pre made with large radiuses, easily welded to and Very cheap and common. You can have a local spring shop make you a 48" radius, if that is your desire. but that way you could switch from hollow to flat very easily. I'll update this post later with pics of my wet belt grinder. If your interested. My father and I made it for grinding carbide tooling in his shop. but it was rarely used and I ended up with it. (:D yea me!)

Jason S. Carter
 
Mmmm, awesome Jason. I've heard of the idea of using a spring as a radius platen before but I had forgotten. I'm guessing Stacy is going to want to continue with the wheel route, but since I'm not that concerned with traditionalism in this regard, I may seriously consider a spring build myself.

What major concerns are there in the design aspects of the wet grinder? Do you guys use a pump and a nozzle to direct water onto the belt or just a reservoir that the belt travels through below?

I'd love to see pics of your wet grinder along with any other info.
 
im bettign im much like stacy in the fact that

i have one of nates 4'r platens an i have already got it scored and at my main grinding spot i think its startig to get slightly flat (i knew this was going to happen) if nate could make me a few in say 10v or M4 (could dream of carbide) i might not need a wheel

also if you have ever ground on a curved platen you know how much HP it soaks up and how fast it heats the platen its self

edit to add im only planning on a 3 inch wide belt as they say the rule of thumb is 1 hp per inch of belt width
 
im bettign im much like stacy in the fact that

i have one of nates 4'r platens an i have already got it scored and at my main grinding spot i think its startig to get slightly flat (i knew this was going to happen) if nate could make me a few in say 10v or M4 (could dream of carbide) i might not need a wheel

also if you have ever ground on a curved platen you know how much HP it soaks up and how fast it heats the platen its self

edit to add im only planning on a 3 inch wide belt as they say the rule of thumb is 1 hp per inch of belt width

Butch, The water keeps it cool and lubricates the platten for a ridiculasly long life :) Wet grinding can not be really compared to dry grinding, in how efficient it uses both the machine and the belts. I'll see if I can get some pics up soon. I also think I have a 1/2 (half a horsepower not 1 to 2 hp) hp motor on it, and if you can stop it you pushing way too hard!

Jason
 
jason, I am familiar with the glass grinders, as I had one when I did lapidary work.
But, I don't want a large belt grinder, I want to build a grinding wheel stimulant. I have a 36" radius platen for my 2X72 grinder already. There is a huge difference in how a large radius wheel grinds cuts vs a platen. The water spray will lubricate the belt and cool the blade at the same time. This should be an affordable version of a kaiten toishi for a fraction of the cost. The ability to easily change the grit will make it really versatile.

javand - I allowed for the cloth, that is why I dropped the resin amount to 20-30 gallons from the cylinder volume of 40 gallons.

More on the build:
I plan on building this as a unit with a straddle type bench seat...so I can grind sitting down. A kaiten toishi is normally fully enclosed and there is a 4"X10" exposed area of the wheel. Some are just a fully exposed wheel like the old Sheffield units, with a or the person grinding to lean on. Normally the smith stands up and leans over the wheel. Mine will have a flip down cover that mimics the Japanese versions, and I can straddle the bench seat while I grind. One reason I may go with a smaller diameter ( 30" -36") is to avoid having to reach out over the wheel diameter to grind...another is that 36 and 48 inch tires are hard to come by in any width near 6".

On the tire . It won't really matter if it isn't a perfect cylinder, as the belt will ride on it. The slow speed will not make a bumpy grind. I plan on doing a post grinder thing when the tire is in place and taking down the tread until I get a near perfect radius. I could even take the tire to a tire shop and have it lathe turned. If the tire is wider than I want, I may grind the tread down on both sides of the 4" area that I will track the belt on. There is a lot of thickness in a tire that I don't need if it isn't on the road. I even considered filling the tire with oil, but decided that air will be fine.

One huge advantage of using an automotive wheel and axle is that it leaves one side unobstructed. The build will be basically like an enormous KMG. I can change a belt in less than a minute. I am really thinking of using the 12" drive wheel system for two reasons ( contact wheel - tracking wheel - drive wheel). One - I already have it. Two - It will be easier to gear down, since it runs on belts and pulleys already. I haven't looked at the gear ratio that is on it, but it may already be low enough without changing a pulley. Another advantage is that I can make the belt size the same as the tire, as the tracking and drive wheels are for 12" belts - 6" or 8" will be fine ( but overkill).

When I start this build next year, I will fully document it and make a tutorial, as I believe this is an unexplored grinding technique for most knife makers. Grinding on a large wheel will create a low angle hollow grind that is hard to match by any other method. Straight razors could be ground in one pass. Japanese chisel grinds will be a simple task, and have the proper shallow hollow grind on the back. Few makers of Japanese style knives actually have the proper geometry ( myself included). Who knows, I may even attempt a hollow ground katana.

As to the cost???/ I think I can build it for about $1000. That is because I lucked into so many of the parts at pennies on the dollar.
 
I have put a lot of thought into doing this myself. I really like the ideas bouncing around here. I had never thought about the axle, wheel idea, but it is definitely on the list, as i have easy access to this stuff. My father owns/operates an auto garage/hot rod shop. I have numerous drawings for this i have done trying to get a design finalized and i can not wait to see this build kick off!
 
Just draw it up as a heavy...make that very heavy....duty three wheel grinder. The frame will have to be at least 1/4" thick angle and plate, with the large wheel being supported on 1/2" steel. The housing/cabinet can be aluminum, galvanized sheet, Plexiglas, or wood ( cypress would be a good choice). Mount the main wheel as strongly as possible to a large plate, and then attach the drive and tracking wheels to a frame that bolts/welds to the main plate. Making the whole thing movable on heavy duty locking caster wheels is a good idea.

The main components are:

A contact wheel - The truck tire and axle assembly.
A drive wheel run by a good size motor and a pulley system to make the max SFPM around 800-1000. The motor can then be run with a VFD to slow it as needed.
A tracking wheel . It needs to be large and sturdy. A solid spare tire, on a small car front wheel axle,with the idler arm on a threaded rod, with a large hand wheel on the end of the rod would work great. You could turn the tire to true round and dome it at 5 degree arc easily.

A small water pump like the ones used for desk-top fountains would be fine to supply the water drip/spray.
Waterproof belts can be sourced from many suppliers.
Other design issues are a catch pan and drain. A spray shield inside the cabinet. A waterproof/dust proof housing for the motor and controls.
Make the non-axle side of the unit accessible by hinging the side to open as a door. This allows fast and easy belt changes.
 
I just drove through town... saw a bunch of wheels that could be perfect. I think they are off the front end of primitive tractors and ag machines.

Antique and old tools stores have 'em outside for flair. These are heavy iron spoked wheels with a flat iron rim, about 26-36" diameter, with a 4-5" wide rim. The rim is about 3/16" thick, and the spokes are riveted through it. I could tack the spokes on from the inside and grind the rivet heads off, but I figure I can cast the rubber over the rivets and they'll disappear.

These wheels have old iron hubs with sleeve bearings, I figure I could rig a solid axle through and mount it on heavy bearings on one side, for easy belt change.

I'll post if I ever start this.
 
I wish you guys would stop all this talk, you're really grating at my sub-conscious where I've buried this many years ago. I really don't need to be thinking about this again! :(
 
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