Naniwa 12k super stone ???????

Jason B.

Jason B.

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
11,164
My stone arrived today and me being me I put it to use right away. The first thing I noticed is how the stone feels a bit sticky if you use anything but very light pressure and I guess you could say its not as smooth grinding as I would like it to be. The surface of the stone builds up fast with metal particles making the sticky feeling increase, the stone works great but this build up of metal brings concern to me.


The finish it leaves on the edge is a very high polish and the sharpness it yields is also good but not as impressive as I thought it would be. I'm sure I need some time to get use to how this stone works but keeping the surface clean and some tips and tricks to its proper use would be helpful if anyone has more experience with this stone?


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Wow that does look like fast buildup, but it could also be a mind trick since you are use to the gray DMT stones. You can see the metal more clearly on the white backing than gray. That sticky feeling is probably a coating that will either wear away or get washed off if you are using the proper amount of water. I've also heard that waterstones do build up quickly and require frequent cleanings.
 
Do you keep it moist while in use, or pre-soak, I don't think it's recommended, before use?

Did you try lapping it in with, say your DMT 8,000 stone?

Is the polish and sharpness on par with the DMT 8,000 or better?

Just curious, as I was thinking of getting the same stone and would probably try these steps.
 
No I can not whittle hair with the edge, its like the edge is too smooth to do so. It cuts like a high polished edge but does not have the same bite, almost like a edge that has been rounded over from stropping.

I lapped the surface because it was not perfectly flat but this did not make a difference in its performance. The only way to remove the surface build up seems to be lapping :confused:

No pre-soak but I do keep the stone very wet, their is also no slurry build-up but I think this is normal.

The polish is better than the DMT EEF but its not nearly as sharp.




FYI, DMT EEF should never be used for lapping.
 
It's a resin stone, so I think it will keep the sticky feeling. My 10K also gets a lot of swarf very quickly, I just rub my fingers over it to clean most of it, I keep the surface very wet. I use an artificial nagura from King every now and then to clean fully, and have lapped it a couple times with a coarse DMT. I don't know if you can get any kind of 'bite' off this stone, they are kinda popular with straight shavers, and they don't like harsh edges much (such as some preferring chromium oxide to diamond for final compound stropping)
 
I'm using a cheap "fine" diamond like a nagura stone and its working good for removing the build up without taking too much off the stone. My scrapper 5, ZDP endura, and JYD II CB have been my test subjects so far, I'm in the process of re-doing the S5 now and have started to get a hair whittling edge in some spots. I think it will take a little time to get the feel for this stone but so far its doing just what I wanted.

Hardheart, you bring up a good point, taking into account the type of abrasive I realize now why I'm not getting that bite. My S5 is starting to take a impressive edge at this time, I'll be back with a update soon :)
 
A little more work and this stone is showing its true colors, the edge is not really hair whittling but its very close and I'm sure with a little more practice I'll be getting those results every time. My main reason for getting this stone was for the finishing carbon steels like my SR101, O1, 1095 and others, though my diamond stones worked well these type of steels seem to like a smoother/higher polished edge than the diamond are capable of. I'm on to stropping the edge now and like I thought this is where I'm starting to see the difference. Thanks to all of those that helped me with my decision in my other thread...... looks like I'll be getting more of these :D

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Looks better in person but if you catch it in the right light this is what the scratch pattern looks like.

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Scratch pattern at 100x
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Looks good, the pictures look similar to what I get pre-loading of the stone. Yes this stone is notorious for loading up easily, but for polishing it works better this way. The finish is finer once it's loaded up, though it will cut very slow which is expected. The only way to clean it up is to either lap it with DMT 8XC or rub the surface with a slurry stone, but if you're moving up from an 8k Naniwa you can just leave the stone permanently in its loaded-up state as a dedicated polishing stone.

I'm getting biting edges with mine, though it typically already has a biting edge from the previous stone (Shapton 6k "High Carbon"). The Shapton's are less gummy, harder, and doesn't load up as easily. The Naniwa's are grittier and provide more feedback. Same results though.
 
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Good to know, I was expecting a better/finer scratch pattern for the rated grit but I have a feeling I will need the 8k and blue aoto I plan on getting next to see the results I feel it should be producing. I'm still not a fan of the gummy feeling but that's not a big issue.
 
I think you're on the right track, some stones work better when preceded by the same type stone.

FWIW, I've had good results by using more pressure at the beginning, then finishing up with lighter pressure. You may also want to try not lapping and/or using the diamond nagura on it as much, and it won't feel as 'sticky'. (I say that because I don't lap mine that often... when I do, it feels a bit soft for a short while, but it goes away). It may look loaded... but it will still polish.

cbw
 
The light came on flickered and died but I know whats wrong :foot:


I thank thombrogan, and I kick myself in the a$$ for not checking in the first place. I was wondering why at some angles the edge looked like it had a perfect polish but at other you could see a scratch pattern :confused: and then at a third angle I spotted the problem...... this stone is REALLY fine. That's when what thom said in the DMT 8000 thread made that little light flicker in my head. This stone is 0.5 microns and I was trying to use it directly after the EEF :eek::foot::o


I was just working on a carbon steel kitchen knife when I noticed the fine scratch pattern and though about the micron rating of the stone. Needless to say I need to get the 8k Naniwa to make this work right.
 
knifenut1013 said:
The light came on flickered and died but I know whats wrong :foot:


I thank thombrogan, and I kick myself in the a$$ for not checking in the first place. I was wondering why at some angles the edge looked like it had a perfect polish but at other you could see a scratch pattern :confused: and then at a third angle I spotted the problem...... this stone is REALLY fine. That's when what thom said in the DMT 8000 thread made that little light flicker in my head. This stone is 0.5 microns and I was trying to use it directly after the EEF :eek::foot::o


I was just working on a carbon steel kitchen knife when I noticed the fine scratch pattern and though about the micron rating of the stone. Needless to say I need to get the 8k Naniwa to make this work right.
Click to expand...

well daaahhhhh!!!!
 
I got some Naniwa stones: 400, 1000, 3000, 8000 and 12000 — works great.
I also have a small Suehiro combo stone at 1000/3000 and it is also very good.
And, I've got a couple of Nagura stones from King to clear the buildup.

I'm really interested in this thread because I too am having difficulties getting a mirror edge. I keep struggling between 3000- 12000. The knives get hairpoppin' (not whittling), but I can't get rid of the scratches. I know that traditional Katana sharpeners could and can spend several months with the same blade, in order to reach that mirror finish, so maybe there's no point in trying —*although I still want to.
 
stoffi said:
I got some Naniwa stones: 400, 1000, 3000, 8000 and 12000 — works great.
I also have a small Suehiro combo stone at 1000/3000 and it is also very good.
And, I've got a couple of Nagura stones from King to clear the buildup.

I'm really interested in this thread because I too am having difficulties getting a mirror edge. I keep struggling between 3000- 12000. The knives get hairpoppin' (not whittling), but I can't get rid of the scratches. I know that traditional Katana sharpeners could and can spend several months with the same blade, in order to reach that mirror finish, so maybe there's no point in trying —*although I still want to.
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Depending on steel and size of blade it could take many hours to sharpen a blade. Work a little longer with each finer grit and see if your results change.
 
Something to keep in mind...
Nagura is a soft ultra-fine stone that is used to create an abrasive slurry on the surface of the Japanese waterstone which speeds up grinding and polishes the edge at the same time. It's not used for cleaning stones unless used BEFORE the sharpening process begins. The local Japanese sharpeners in Seki call them 'helper stones' because they build up a working slurry quickly. I see these guys adding a handful of water and a rub with a nagura after every 5-8 stokes. More water, more slurry, then rub. But then, these are folks who will spend all day (if not 4-5 days) sharpening one blade. Me... I don't have the patience.

Stitchawl
 
I guess using the word nagura was a little wrong, I was just using it as a cleaning stone. I was not using a slurry when sharpening.
 
I wouldn't use a slurry on a synthetic stone as fine as the 12K, Naniwa actually suggests against it for Super Stones IIRC. The nagura really aren't that fine a grit, and will not break down to the same level as the Naniwa, or the higher end naturals. I've seen sharpening progressions where they will start with a nagura and slurry, but the slurry is diluted/rinsed off and the polishing is finished with plain water or light slurry from the stone itself (same thing with guangxhi stones or coticules, even Arkansas stones). The synthetic nagura aren't at all similar to the real thing, some people don't like them at all.
 
The shop in Kyoto that I use for 'wishing and dreaming' about stones sells Nagura stone in three different configurations; natural stone cut into rectangles about 1 x 1 x 2½ (one end rough,) synthetic stone the same size, and a small (half the size of a cigarette pack) of tiny chips of natural stone. The chips are about the size of a grain of rice but flatter. The shop keeper told me that they are used more by sword polishers rather than knife sharpeners. Some years ago I bought one of each just to try, (less than $10 USD for all three together,) tried it a couple of times with some waterstones, then never again. Couldn't say that I noticed any difference, but what do I know?!? :o

Stitchawl
 
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