National Id..... Whaaaat?

I'm all for GPS in phones and cars and such. Hey, if my butt is in trouble I want to know that if i call for help help is going to find me. I went canoeing over the July 4th weekend. The river was very very very low (deep parts maybe 6', but most of it was less than 1 foot deep.) Pretty safe, but i made sure that the GPS on my cell phone was working. Things can get bad quite in the woods and telling the 911 operator that I was located by the tree with the branches by the river was not going to be an option;)
However, I want nothing further of it than that. If i get out of my car and throw my phone in the river, then i obviously don't want to be found. I'd like to keep that freedom.

Jake
 
Edward Teach said:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin​

Old Ben is a very quotable guy and was a good propagandist for what turned out to be a good cause, but his statement has no practical value. It does not help answer the question of what is "essential" liberty. It's meaning varies with the reader.

We have folks who have used that same statement as a basis of refusing to use a driver's license at all (or license plates) -- that would interfere with their liberty. Ditto for speed limits. Ditto for their paying any taxes (But they accept payments from government and drive on public roads). Ditto for having actual money to back checks they write. They are freemen - sovereign persons.

Our SSN's have been a de facto national ID number for decades, with all the problems that use produces in the way of indentity theft.

So, in light of what is now going on on the world, is it "essential" to our concept of liberty that police, who have had the power for generations to ask you for ID, should be able to ask you to produce a "national ID"?

Same question as to businesses asking for "national ID" to cash a check --- or rent an airplane.

And what does the legislation provide as consequences if no "national ID" is produced on request?
 
A lot of us have had a National ID card for a long time, along with our photos, blood types and fingerprints. I had to trade in my old one for a new one now though...

The old one? My military ID...

The new one? My CAC (Common Access Card) that I have to use for the computer systems, base entry, door locks and such at work.

FWIW, one of my job titles is System Security Manager...and knowing where it can go, I am just happy that so far the things are detachable...and that I only have to have the thing on base.

.
 
OK. I read the legislation.

I could be wrong, but all it seems to say, in substance, that the feds won't accept a state driver's license as ID unless it meets certain standards. (I presume, for example, that could have implications for buying airline tickets as regulated by the FAA.)

If that is the case, what is the problem I am missing?
 
hollowdweller said:
Really. I'd much rather risk some terror than fight more wars or letting big brother in my life more.

I agree with HD on this. You guys are scaring me with all this talk of implanted chips. Yikes! :eek:
 
Perhaps i am a little bit dense, but what is so wrong with a National ID? What freedom in the Bill of Rights does it infringe upon?

alf
 
alfred tan said:
Perhaps i am a little bit dense, but what is so wrong with a National ID? What freedom in the Bill of Rights does it infringe upon?

alf
The right to privacy! With the National ID implemented, privacy would be limited to going to the bathroom, (maybe) without anybody directly observing your actions!

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Emphasis upon the necessity of warrants places the judgment of an independent magistrate between law enforcement officers and the privacy of citizens, authorizes invasion of that privacy only upon a showing that constitutes probable cause, and limits that invasion by specification of the person to be seized, the place to be searched, and the evidence to be sought.

In numerous cases, the Court has referred to the necessity that warrants be issued by a ''judicial officer'' or a ''magistrate.'' ''The point of the Fourth Amendment, which often is not grasped by zealous officers, is not that it denies law enforcement the support of the usual inferences which reasonable men draw from evidence.

Its protection consists in requiring that those inferences be drawn by a neutral and detached magistrate, (a disinterested third party) instead of being judged by the officer engaged in the often competitive enterprise of ferreting out crime.

Any assumption that evidence sufficient to support a magistrate's disinterested determination to issue a search warrant will justify the officers in making a search without a warrant would reduce the Amendment to a nullity and leave the people's homes secure only in the discretion of police officers.''

Where the warrant process is used to authorize seizure of books and other items entitled either to First Amendment protection or to First Amendment consideration, the Court has required government to observe more exacting standards than in other cases. Usually these exacting standards have applied to computers, journals and other forms of written materials.

Seizure of materials arguably protected by the First Amendment is a form of prior restraint that requires strict observance of the Fourth Amendment. At a minimum, a warrant is required, and additional safeguards may be required for large-scale seizures.

We are unfortunately moving rapidly in the direction of our personal privacy being history and even our homes being secure only at the discretion of police officers. This is called a police state! For some of us, at least, this is a problem!
Thanks,

iBear
 
Thomas Linton said:
Old Ben is a very quotable guy and was a good propagandist for what turned out to be a good cause, but his statement has no practical value. It does not help answer the question of what is "essential" liberty. It's meaning varies with the reader.

We have folks who have used that same statement as a basis of refusing to use a driver's license at all (or license plates) -- that would interfere with their liberty. Ditto for speed limits. Ditto for their paying any taxes (But they accept payments from government and drive on public roads). Ditto for having actual money to back checks they write. They are freemen - sovereign persons.

Our SSN's have been a de facto national ID number for decades, with all the problems that use produces in the way of indentity theft.

So, in light of what is now going on on the world, is it "essential" to our concept of liberty that police, who have had the power for generations to ask you for ID, should be able to ask you to produce a "national ID"?

Same question as to businesses asking for "national ID" to cash a check --- or rent an airplane.

And what does the legislation provide as consequences if no "national ID" is produced on request?
And what does the legislation provide as consequences if no "national ID" is produced on request? - Thomas Linton
*****************************************************
JUST WAIT... probably jail? Uhhh, I can't find my ID, but, ahhhhh I'm not a terrorist.

iBear
 
alfred tan said:
Perhaps i am a little bit dense, but what is so wrong with a National ID? What freedom in the Bill of Rights does it infringe upon?

alf
Under the Fourth Amendment, detention must be 'reasonable. ' See U.S. v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 542-44 ('85) (analyzing constitutionality of length of traveler's border detention under Fourth Amendment reasonableness standard); Caban, 728 F.2d at 75 (considering whether duration of border detention without a hearing was reasonable).

In the context of a criminal arrest, a detention of longer than 48 hours without a probable cause determination violates the Fourth Amendment as a matter of law in the absence of a demonstrated emergency or other extraordinary circumstance. See County of Riverside v. McLaughlin, 111 S.Ct. 1661, 670 ('91). However, the Supreme Court arrived at this rule by considering the time it takes to complete administrative steps typically incident to arrest.

Unreasonable Searches And Seizures: Non-consensual extraction of blood implicates Fourth Amendment privacy rights. Skinner v. Railway Labor Executives' Ass'n, 489 U.S. 602, 16 ('89) ('this physical intrusion, penetrating beneath the skin, infringes [a reasonable] expectation of privacy'); Schmerber v. California, 384 U.S. 757, 67 ('66) (compulsory blood test 'plainly involves the broadly conceived reach of a search and seizure under the Fourth Amendment').'

'The Fourth Amendment does not proscribe all searches and seizures, but only those that are unreasonable.' Skinner, 489 U.S. at 619; accord Vernonia School Dist. 47J v. Acton, No. 95-590, 1995 WL 373274, at *3 (June 26,'95) ('the ultimate measure of the constitutionality of a governmental search is `reasonableness''). A search's reasonableness under the Fourth Amendment generally depends on whether the search was made pursuant to a warrant issued upon probable cause. U.S. v. Place, 462 U.S. 696, 701 ('83).

'An essential purpose of a warrant requirement is to protect privacy interests by assuring citizens subject to a search or seizure that such intrusions are not the random or arbitrary acts of government agents.'

The Supreme Court has reaffirmed and expanded the privacy principle, stating that, in some contexts, 'testing based on `suspicion' of wrongful activity would not be better, but worse' than suspicionless testing. Acton, 1995 WL 373274. In Acton, the Supreme Court upheld as constitutional a school district's practice of conducting random, suspicionless urine testing of school athletes for drug use.

The Court rejected the proposition that the school district could conduct such testing only if school officials had suspicion that a specific athlete was using drugs, holding that this alternative 'entails substantial difficulties -- if it is indeed practicable at all.' Id. Accusatory drug testing would 'transform the process into a badge of shame' and would increase the risk that school officials would impose testing arbitrarily upon disfavored, but not drug-using, students.

Except in certain narrowly limited cases, the Supreme Court has repeatedly stated its "insistence upon probable cause" as a minimum requirement for a reasonable search permitted by the Constitution.' Chambers v. Moreny, 399 U.S. 42, 51 ('70).

RIGHT TO PRIVACY: Because 'the integrity of an individual's person is a cherished value in our society,' searches that invade bodily integrity cannot be executed as mere fishing expeditions to acquire useful evidence: 'The interests in human dignity and privacy which the Fourth Amendment protects forbid any such intrusions on the mere chance that desired evidence might be obtained.' Schmerber, 384 U.S. at 772, 769-70.

So, as you may see, with privacy, we are dealing with the integrity of an individual's person, a cherished value in our society! Searches that invade bodily integrity cannot be executed as mere fishing expeditions to acquire useful evidence!

'The interests in human dignity and the privacy which the Fourth Amendment protects, forbid any such intrusions on the mere chance that desired evidence might be obtained.'
Thanks,

iBear
 
Edward Teach said:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

-Benjamin Franklin​
As a security technologist, I regularly encounter people who say the United States should adopt a national ID card. How could such a program not make us more secure, they ask?

The suggestion, when it's made by a thoughtful civic-minded person like Nicholas Kristof (Star-Tribune, March 18), often takes on a tone that is regretful and ambivalent: Yes, indeed, the card would be a minor invasion of our privacy, and undoubtedly it would add to the growing list of interruptions and delays we encounter every day; but we live in dangerous times, we live in a new world.

It all sounds so reasonable, but there's a lot to disagree with in such an attitude.

The potential privacy encroachments of an ID card system are far from minor. And the interruptions and delays caused by incessant ID checks could easily proliferate into a persistent traffic jam in office lobbies and airports and hospital waiting rooms and shopping malls.

But my primary objection isn't the totalitarian potential of national IDs, nor the likelihood that they'll create a whole immense new class of social and economic dislocations. Nor is it the opportunities they will create for colossal boondoggles by government contractors.

My objection to the national ID card is much simpler: It won't work. It won't make us more secure.

In fact, everything I've learned about security over the last 20 years tells me that once it is put in place, a national ID card program will actually make us less secure.

My argument may not be obvious, but it's not hard to follow, either. It centers around the notion that security must be evaluated not based on how it works, but on how it fails.

It doesn't really matter how well an ID card works when used by the hundreds of millions of honest people that would carry it.

What matters is how the system might fail when used by someone intent on subverting that system: how it fails naturally, how it can be made to fail, and how failures might be exploited.

The first problem is the card itself. No matter how unforgeable we make it, it will be forged. And even worse, people will get legitimate cards in fraudulent names.

Two of the 9/11 terrorists had valid Virginia driver's licenses in fake names. And even if we could guarantee that everyone who issued national ID cards couldn't be bribed, initial cardholder identity would be determined by other identity documents ... all of which would be easier to forge.

Not that there would ever be such thing as a single ID card. Currently about 20 percent of all identity documents are lost per year. An entirely separate security system would have to be developed for people who lost their card, a system that itself is capable of abuse.

Additionally, any ID system involves people... people who regularly make mistakes.

We all have stories of bartenders falling for obviously fake IDs, or sloppy ID checks at airports and government buildings. It's not simply a matter of training; checking IDs is a mind-numbingly boring task, one that is guaranteed to have failures.

Biometrics such as thumbprints show some promise here, but bring with them their own set of exploitable failure modes.

But the main problem with any ID system is that it requires the existence of a database. In this case it would have to be an immense database of private and sensitive information on every American -- one widely and instantaneously accessible from airline check-in stations, police cars, schools, and so on.

The security risks are enormous. Such a database would be a kludge of existing databases; databases that are incompatible, full of erroneous data, and unreliable.

As computer scientists, we do not know how to keep a database of this magnitude secure, whether from outside hackers or the thousands of insiders authorized to access it.

And when the inevitable worms, viruses, or random failures happen and the database goes down, what then? Is America supposed to shut down until it's restored?

Proponents of national ID cards want us to assume all these problems, and the tens of billions of dollars such a system would cost -- for what? For the promise of being able to identify someone?

What good would it have been to know the names of Timothy McVeigh, the Unabomber, or the DC snipers before they were arrested? Palestinian suicide bombers generally have no history of terrorism. The goal is here is to know someone's intentions, and their identity has very little to do with that.

There are benefits in having a variety of different ID documents. A single national ID is an exceedingly valuable document, and accordingly there's greater incentive to forge it. There is more security in alert guards paying attention to subtle social cues than bored minimum-wage guards blindly checking IDs.

That's why, when someone asks me to rate the security of a national ID card on a scale of one to 10, I can't give an answer. It doesn't even belong on a scale. - Bruce Schneier

Thanks,
iBear
 
We havent lost anything IF YOU CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVES AND TELL THEM HOW YOU FEEL..

That's important, your personal participation in the democratic process.
If they dont listen to you, kick em out, then run for office and change the laws.
Thats Democracy.
Use it or lose it.
 
DannyinJapan said:
We havent lost anything IF YOU CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVES AND TELL THEM HOW YOU FEEL..

That's important, your personal participation in the democratic process.
If they dont listen to you, kick em out, then run for office and change the laws.
Thats Democracy.
Use it or lose it.

Danny, I'm not trying to start a confrontation but in my experience it does little good to call our representatives. They basically do what they want or what their party tells them to do. Even the good ones cannot personally read the thousands of pages of laws that they are asked to sign into being. At best our reps depend on staffers to give them a rough idea about what they are about to sign. The respective political party basically dictates the way they vote.

As for "If they dont listen to you, kick em out, then run for office and change the laws. Thats a fine and noble idea until you've actually tried to do it or at least investigated how much it costs and/or checked the huge political machine that it takes to run for office. Only the rich and very powerful stand a chance of achieving elected office. Consider also that only the Republican and Democratic partys have a chance at federal matching funds and television/radio coverage. Third partys don't stand a chance.

Power and money dictates the course of our government; not the will of the people. IMO our system is broken and cannot be fixed. I think that we are fast racing toward a huge financial breakdown that will cripple if not destroy America. This is not what I want but it is surely coming.

Ice
 
With all due respect, thats a load of $hit. (It might seem that way from the armchair, but its just not true.)
What I said isnt just a fine and noble idea, its the heart of American Democracy. Its what we fight and die for every day.

Grassroots revolutions happen every day in our country and they'll happen again for you if you have the will and the passion to do so.
The people have the power and we always will.
By peaceful protest or armed revolution, America will always be free.
If you're not willing to fight for your rights, then you dont deserve them.
Thats Democracy and that's America.
 
I live in a country where people really do believe what you said Green Ice, and if you ever really want to see Zombies, Ill show you 100 million of them.
That kind of negative , helpless, defeatist drivel is nauseating to me.
Tell me you dont mean that.
Please.
 
DannyinJapan said:
I live in a country where people really do believe what you said Green Ice, and if you ever really want to see Zombies, Ill show you 100 million of them.
That kind of negative , helpless, defeatist drivel is nauseating to me.
Tell me you dont mean that.
Please.

Danny, you live in fantasyland. Period. Your tone in answer to me is rather insulting because I am neither negative, helpless or a defeatist and I don't put out drivel. This is a fine forum and I will not get involved in shouting match with you. Reply in any manner you desire but I have nothing further to say to you.

"By peaceful protest or armed revolution, America will always be free.
If you're not willing to fight for your rights, then you dont deserve them."


I will agree with you on that point but its only certain people, not the whole America.


Ice
 
only certain people, not the whole America

Who might that be?
Just the white folks?

You need to read a history book.
I didnt go to graduate school to delude myself. I went there to learn about the world and brother, I am still at it.
I've met plenty of non-Americans who believe as you believe.
They dont give a rats a$$ about freedom or democracy.
Thats why they dont have it.

Dont listen to him, guys and gals. If you dont like the way things are being run, call your congressional reps and give them an earful. That's their job, to listen to you. You have a stake and a responsibility in our country and how it is run.
Dont ever forget it or doubt it.
 
Danny,
It's very easy to disagree with Ice without using harsh language.

Though one can generalize that power and money control all, the public will is very important too. Noam Chomsky had a great model in manufactured consent, what he is unwilling to understand is that consent can be manufactured by a variety of ideologies, not just the Right/industrial complex, as he sees it.

Consider too that being proactive with the political process makes for a healthier individual as well as society. Unless of course, one become filled with too much rancor and bitterness. Trying helps.


munk
 
"Who might that be? Just the white folks?" Low blow there buddy. Nope I mean that the majority of people regardless of ethnicity will not fight for freedom. Only a small percentage of people actually became involved in our own Revolutionary War or so the history books say.

Thats right folks. Don't listen to me. I'm just a liar and a crackpot who's afraid to speak my mind and make a stand on anything. You know, this discussion leads to nowhere at least in this thread. Maybe I should have kept my yap shut. I don't think Uncle Bill would be proud.

Ice
 
The new law provides that a driver's license will not be acceptable to the federal govenment as a form of identification unless it complies with certain minimum standards <ed.: as to contents and issuance> -- standards that make it more difficult to counterfeit driver's licenses.

Search and seizure? The law does not deal with searches or seizures.

Privacy? The information required is already available on virtually everyone in some -- usually multiple -- existing goverment file(s), not to mention private databases. There is no provision for collection of the information from driver's licenses in a national database that I can find. I'll go back and look again. I thought driver's license info was already generally available to law enforcement - like for years.

<ed.: It's a drafting mess. Forget spelling errors. Taken literally, I cannot get a driver's license in compliance with the law unless I prove that I have an approved application for asylum or proof of lawful alien status. (English as a foreign language! :rolleyes: )

There is a provision that the data be available for a national database. So now, "they" will KNOW:

1. Your legal name
2. Your d of b
3. Your gender
4. Your license/ID card #
5. What your face looks like when you applied for the license/ID card
6. The address of your "principle" place of residence
7. What your signature that you placed on the application looks like.

OMG! :eek: >
 
Green Ice; your opinion is valued and now you've let off some steam I trust this is the end of rhetoric between you and Danny.

We know change is an uphill battle. Everyone knows the odds against change are always stacked by power and money.

Funny thing is if you change public opinion, power and money must listen.


munk
 
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