Neck knives aren't technically illegal in California are they ?

[Hickory n steel]

I know the law mentions something about on the belt or on the hip, but it has always been my understanding/ assumption that it's the open carry in a sheath part that really matters.

I just saw a YouTube video where the person claimed neck knives were illegal to carry in California and it dawned on me that technically this might be true based on how the law is worded, but that it doesn't seem to really be the case in practice / enforcement.
I haven't heard of anybody getting in trouble because the knife they were openly carrying wasn't on their belt / hip, and any time I've looked up the knife laws I also look up the cliff notes so to speak on the various attorneys website who never mention anything about " it must be on your belt ".
Openly in a sheath always seem to be the important thing to focus on, this was the first time I've ever heard somebody say a knife legally had to be on your belt.

Maybe I'm wrong, but would neck knives not be readily available here if that technically wasn't a legal carry method here ?

 

[toker]

At the very least, all knives need a Prop 65 warning in CA.

 

[killgar]

I haven't seen, and nor can I find, anything official to lead me to believe that belt-carry is the only legal way to carry a fixed-blade, or that neck-carry is illegal. Lots of people say lots of things on youtube, and a lot of it is nonsense.

Here is CA pc 20200- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=20200.&lawCode=PEN

In my opinion, that statute describes one method of legally carrying a fixed-blade, but does not state that it is the ONLY legal method. My former (deceased) attorney theorized that the purpose of 20200 was not specifically to state that carrying a fixed-blade on ones waist was legal, but rather, it was to specifically state that a knife carried in a sheath (covering a portion of the knife) did not constitute "concealment". Notice how that statute specifically says "is not concealed within the meaning of...", and then it refers to several other statutes regarding blades hidden inside of things (sword cane, lipstick knife, pen knife, etc). In other words, the purpose of that statute is to make it clear that a blade in a sheath does not constitute concealment in the same way that a blade hidden in a cane is to be considered concealed.

I looked and could not find any case law on the subject of knives worn suspended by the neck, nor could I find any that say a fixed-blade MUST be worn "suspended from the waist of the wearer" in order to be legal.

Several of the case laws I've read about concealed fixed-blades refer to the intent of the person carrying the knife. Based on my reading, in my opinion, as long as the knife is clearly visible, identifiable as a knife, and it is clear that you had no intent to try and conceal the knife from view, then you are legally safe.

Although this is not legally definitive, I used to carry fixed-blades in back-pocket sheaths. Many LEO's (San Diego) saw them, but none had any problem with them. Only on one occasion when my open jacket accidentally covered a knife I was carrying in this manner did a cop mention it to me with a friendly warning. After recounting the experience to my attorney he recommend I carry my fixed-blade hanging lower, on my belt, so that my jacket could not possibly cover it.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I haven't seen, and nor can I find, anything official to lead me to believe that belt-carry is the only legal way to carry a fixed-blade, or that neck-carry is illegal. Lots of people say lots of things on youtube, and a lot of it is nonsense.

Here is CA pc 20200- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=20200.&lawCode=PEN

In my opinion, that statute describes one method of legally carrying a fixed-blade, but does not state that it is the ONLY legal method. My former (deceased) attorney theorized that the purpose of 20200 was not specifically to state that carrying a fixed-blade on ones waist was legal, but rather, it was to specifically state that a knife carried in a sheath (covering a portion of the knife) did not constitute "concealment". In other words, it's specifically about the sheath, and the subject of "concealment", and not about the waist (how/where the knife is carried). But like I said, that was his theory.

I looked and could not find any case law on the subject of knives worn suspended by the neck, nor could I find any that say a fixed-blade MUST be worn "suspended from the waist of the wearer" in order to be legal.

Several of the case laws I've read about concealed fixed-blades refer to the intent of the person carrying the knife. Based on my reading, in my opinion, as long as the knife is clearly visible, identifiable as a knife, and it is clear that you had no intent to try and conceal the knife from view, then you are legally safe.

Although this is not legally definitive, I used to carry fixed-blades in back-pocket sheaths. Many LEO's (San Diego) saw them, but none had any problem with them. Only on one occasion when my open jacket accidentally covered a knife I was carrying in this manner did a cop mention it to me with a friendly warning. After recounting the experience to my attorney he recommend I carry my fixed-blade hanging lower, on my belt, so that my jacket could not possibly cover it.

That was my assumption, and I never found any attorneys saying it was hip carry only.
I've never worried about it, but this statement made me think just maybe I could have been wrong all this time.

to be honest I only really checked out the video to see the hot chick with knives , because I pretty much know what the law says.
Beyond the chick talking who was definitely easy on the eyes, the video was painful to watch.
There were multiple things she said that weren't true including that assisted opening knives aren't legal, but because she's a hot chick nobody was questioning a word of it.

 

[Hickory n steel]

At the very least, all knives need a Prop 65 warning in CA.

I don't think I've encountered this warning on a single Buck knife or Case knife.
It wouldn't surprise me if that's only for Chinese knives, and honestly at least when it comes to the cheap ones I don't think that would be a bad idea.
I had so many flea market, gas station, and frost cutlery...etc knives as a teenager and many of them were covered in an odd smelling mystery oil.

 

[scdub]

I’ll chime in to agree with Killgar (as per usual).

As long as enough of the knife and/or sheath is showing to be easily identified as a knife, I believe the law is satisfied.

Riding on a backpack strap for instance is pretty common to see on trails in CA.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

At the very least, all knives need a Prop 65 warning in CA.

 

[RobMofSD]

So I have heard some attorneys recommend only hip carry; based on the old visibility rule (concealed if not visible from all four directions, which that change protected against, the knife could not be concealed if at the hip). That was an old standard that was enforced. However, we are talking about the state that threw someone in prison for box cutters packed away in a backpack as "switchblades." The ambiguity is the issue. With hip or belt carry, there is no ambiguity.

Shoot, I could argue a Kickstop knife is a switchblade here... so I am a bit conservative on my read, and so have some attorneys I follow.

 

[Hickory n steel]

So I have heard some attorneys recommend only hip carry; based on the old visibility rule (concealed if not visible from all four directions, which that change protected against, the knife could not be concealed if at the hip). That was an old standard that was enforced. However, we are talking about the state that threw someone in prison for box cutters packed away in a backpack as "switchblades." The ambiguity is the issue. With hip or belt carry, there is no ambiguity.

Shoot, I could argue a Kickstop knife is a switchblade here... so I am a bit conservative on my read, and so have some attorneys I follow.

Interesting.
I mostly find myself carrying a neck knife in the summer, so even if I cared it wouldn't be concealed in any way.
I never put it under my shirt because it's a cutting tool that I'd prefer to be conveniently accessed.

 

[RobMofSD]

Interesting.
I mostly find myself carrying a neck knife in the summer, so even if I cared it wouldn't be concealed in any way.
I never put it under my shirt because it's a cutting tool that I'd prefer to be conveniently accessed.

So someone can see it from behind you and both sides? That was what the visibility rule was. And that is why I am extra cautious.

 

[Hickory n steel]

So someone can see it from behind you and both sides? That was what the visibility rule was. And that is why I am extra cautious.

Is that a rule or a rule of thumb ?
It sure sounds like a nightmare of a hard to follow rule if it is.

Maybe I should be more cautious than I am, but I've generally figured as long as the fixed blade wasn't intentionally being concealed and was a fairly mundane utilitarian knife not being carried as a weapon I'd probably be fine.
That's just my attitude and personal gamble though, I'm not necessarily a " free men don't ask permission " type I just don't worry about slightly bending a law that could stand to be clearer.

 

[DK94044]

In San Francisco, California, the law abiding will be fined and prosecuted, but real criminals will get social rehabilitation.

 

[killgar]

There is no requirement in California that an openly carried fixed-blade be visible from every angle at all times. That would be physically impossible.

There is a case law on this point, that specifically says a fixed-blade need not be visible from every angle. It also says that carrying a box or something else that temporarily blocks the view of the knife doesn't make it concealed. Unfortunately I don't remember the case, I've read so many it's hard to remember them all.

But time and time again, the California Appeals Court has stated that concealment is defined by intent, and not solely by whether the knife is visible or not.

EDIT: People V Oskins (a case I had cited in this post) involved intent to use a concealed fixed-blade as a weapon, not intent to conceal. Like I said, it's hard to remember them all. So I deleted that part.

 

[RobMofSD]

Is that a rule or a rule of thumb ?
It sure sounds like a nightmare of a hard to follow rule if it is.

Maybe I should be more cautious than I am, but I've generally figured as long as the fixed blade wasn't intentionally being concealed and was a fairly mundane utilitarian knife not being carried as a weapon I'd probably be fine.
That's just my attitude and personal gamble though, I'm not necessarily a " free men don't ask permission " type I just don't worry about slightly bending a law that could stand to be clearer.

It was for freaking years.

There is no requirement in California that an openly carried fixed-blade be visible from every angle at all times. That would be physically impossible.

There is a case law on this point, that specifically says a fixed-blade need not be visible from every angle. It also says that carrying a box or something else that temporarily blocks the view of the knife doesn't make it concealed. Unfortunately I don't remember the case, I've read so many it's hard to remember them all.

But time and time again, the California Appeals Court has stated that concealment is defined by intent, and not solely by whether the knife is visible or not.

EDIT: People V Oskins (a case I had cited in this post) involved intent to use a concealed fixed-blade as a weapon, not intent to conceal. Like I said, it's hard to remember them all. So I deleted that part.

Nice. But they held up the at appeal that dang box cutter case. Freaking irritating.

Granted we have so much case law because we have a state with such vague laws... like what's a dirk or dagger? Lol.

 

[killgar]

Nice. But they held up the at appeal that dang box cutter case. Freaking irritating.

Granted we have so much case law because we have a state with such vague laws... like what's a dirk or dagger? Lol.

I assume you're referring to People v Hester. If you are then I agree that it is one of the dumbest legal decisions I've see in California. It's one I always refer to when giving examples of some of this states dumbest rulings.

If that is the case you're referring to, for the sake of accuracy, the Appeals Court ruled that concealed box cutters can be charged as concealed dirks/daggers, not as switchblades. But they also included in that ruling that it does not apply to people carrying concealed box cutters for legitimate use. Mr. Hester was a violent criminal engaged in violent crime when he was found in possession of the box cutters, which greatly influenced the decision of the Appeals Court.

Doing a search of case laws I couldn't find any cases where they ruled a box cutter was a switchblade.



As far as the question of what is a dirk or dagger, there is the statute definition here- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=16470.&lawCode=PEN

And then there are several case laws on the subject that provide further explanation, but it's a little complicated.

Once again, whether a person can be found guilty of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger is very much a matter of intent regarding the reason the person was carrying the item, as well as the design/condition of the item itself, and what activity the person was engaged in when found in possession of the item.

There are several case laws that provide legal exceptions for people carrying concealed items capable of ready use as stabbing weapons (including fixed-blades) but who do so "innocently", and who can demonstrate that they were in possession of the item for legitimate purposes. There are several such references to carrying scissors, or carrying a kitchen knife for food prep, or carrying a knife or awl for work. However, I would not want to test these exceptions.

The case I mentioned earlier (People v Oskins) is a good example. Oskins was initially arrested and convicted of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger after leaving his place of work at lunch with a work-issued fixed-blade in his pocket. Although the knife was concealed, and although it was capable of being used as a stabbing weapon, the Appeals Court determined, after Oskins provided witnesses, that he was not carrying the knife as a weapon. Because of that the court overturned his conviction.

Again, it's very much about intent, and design, and activity. If a person were carrying a concealed screwdriver to go fix something, that screwdriver should not, as a matter of law, be considered a concealed dirk/dagger. However, if a person were caught coming out of a business they had just broken into, or if they had just threatened someone with bodily harm, then that screwdriver could be charged as a concealed dirk dagger.

But then, even when a person is carrying a knife as a weapon, and admits to it, and has threatened to use it, the design of that knife can matter greatly. For example, People v Barrios. Mr. Barrios was convicted of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger after being found with a concealed bread knife. He admitted carrying it as a weapon, and according to the arresting officer, he claimed he was being followed and threatened to "kill them". But Barrios appealed his conviction claiming the knife did not meet the legal definition of a "dirk/dagger". And upon examination of the knife, the Appeals Court agreed and overturned his conviction. They determined that due to the design of the knife (flexible blade, rounded tip, no guard) that it would not make an effective stabbing weapon.

Like I said, it's a little complicated.

And for the sake of clarification, I will add that under California law a prosecutor does not have to prove intent to use an item as a weapon to obtain a conviction of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger, however, by law (as a result of P V Oskins), a defendant does have the right to offer evidence of legitimate use at trial, and the jury instruction on the charge of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger instructs the jury that if they believe the defendant was carrying the item for legitimate use that he/she should not be found guilty. It's legal hair-splitting, but it got Oskins conviction overturned.

 

[RobMofSD]

I assume you're referring to People v Hester. If you are then I agree that it is one of the dumbest legal decisions I've see in California. It's one I always refer to when giving examples of some of this states dumbest rulings.

If that is the case you're referring to, for the sake of accuracy, the Appeals Court ruled that concealed box cutters can be charged as concealed dirks/daggers, not as switchblades. But they also included in that ruling that it does not apply to people carrying concealed box cutters for legitimate use. Mr. Hester was a violent criminal engaged in violent crime when he was found in possession of the box cutters, which greatly influenced the decision of the Appeals Court.

Doing a search of case laws I couldn't find any cases where they ruled a box cutter was a switchblade.



As far as the question of what is a dirk or dagger, there is the statute definition here- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=16470.&lawCode=PEN

And then there are several case laws on the subject that provide further explanation, but it's a little complicated.

Once again, whether a person can be found guilty of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger is very much a matter of intent regarding the reason the person was carrying the item, as well as the design/condition of the item itself, and what activity the person was engaged in when found in possession of the item.

There are several case laws that provide legal exceptions for people carrying concealed items capable of ready use as stabbing weapons (including fixed-blades) but who do so "innocently", and who can demonstrate that they were in possession of the item for legitimate purposes. There are several such references to carrying scissors, or carrying a kitchen knife for food prep, or carrying a knife or awl for work. However, I would not want to test these exceptions.

The case I mentioned earlier (People v Oskins) is a good example. Oskins was initially arrested and convicted of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger after leaving his place of work at lunch with a work-issued fixed-blade in his pocket. Although the knife was concealed, and although it was capable of being used as a stabbing weapon, the Appeals Court determined, after Oskins provided witnesses, that he was not carrying the knife as a weapon. Because of that the court overturned his conviction.

Again, it's very much about intent, and design, and activity. If a person were carrying a concealed screwdriver to go fix something, that screwdriver should not, as a matter of law, be considered a concealed dirk/dagger. However, if a person were caught coming out of a business they had just broken into, or if they had just threatened someone with bodily harm, then that screwdriver could be charged as a concealed dirk dagger.

But then, even when a person is carrying a knife as a weapon, and admits to it, and has threatened to use it, the design of that knife can matter greatly. For example, People v Barrios. Mr. Barrios was convicted of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger after being found with a concealed bread knife. He admitted carrying it as a weapon, and according to the arresting officer, he claimed he was being followed and threatened to "kill them". But Barrios appealed his conviction claiming the knife did not meet the legal definition of a "dirk/dagger". And upon examination of the knife, the Appeals Court agreed and overturned his conviction. They determined that due to the design of the knife (flexible blade, rounded tip, no guard) that it would not make an effective stabbing weapon.

Like I said, it's a little complicated.

And for the sake of clarification, I will add that under California law a prosecutor does not have to prove intent to use an item as a weapon to obtain a conviction of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger, however, by law (as a result of P V Oskins), a defendant does have the right to offer evidence of legitimate use at trial, and the jury instruction on the charge of carrying a concealed dirk/dagger instructs the jury that if they believe the defendant was carrying the item for legitimate use that he/she should not be found guilty. It's legal hair-splitting, but it got Oskins conviction overturned.

So the thing that gets me is... The number of times where the conviction is broken on appeal. I know in OC there have been many cases where people with legal one hand opening knives have been arrested for switchblades. Think about how hard that is on the innocent party getting arrested.

As for dirk and dagger... that is a crappy "definition" that is kinda obsurd. That is insanity vague and once again gets interpreted by bad acting law officers terribly.

Years ago I knew people who were arrested and taken on on a fixed blade via not being visible from 4 directions. Which is pretty close to impossible... but it happened.

The problem with how things are written amd things being in case law and not code means you can get arrested for something completely legal... and it happens to people.

Frustrating really.

I deal with the same issue on privacy laws in California. Most of the real requirements are in case law and not CCPA/CPRA.

 

[Man with no name]

I used to keep a Cold Steel Safe Maker II Push knife attached to the drivers side sun visor in my vehicle. So when the sun visor was in the up or closed position it couldn't be seen but when down blocking the sun it was visible and available to me if needed. I also carry a folding knife in the front right pocket of whatever pants I am wearing but that knife would be too slow to access or deploy while driving, seated and wearing a seat belt as required by California law.

When approaching a stop sign or red light I keep at least one car length between me and any vehicle in front of me. My doors are always locked and I am scanning my surroundings. Not paranoid just aware. Parking lots, gas stations, off ramps and on ramps are all possible places of vulnerability. I thought of the push knife as one would think of a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.

One day I was discussing this with a member of a certain motorcycle club and he advised me to be careful about this. I asked why and he mentioned that a fellow MC member was arrested for a fixed blade knife that he had attached to the handlebars of his motorcycle. The knife was in plain view and not concealed in any way. Not sure if the knife was discovered during a traffic stop or was observed while parked on the street and I didn't ask. But the end result was a conviction for the knife. I didn't ask what the exact charge was either.

So I took a beaded lanyard chain and would wear the push knife around my neck while driving then throw it in the glove box when exiting the vehicle. But this made me wonder if there was some possible crime for having a small fixed blade (3.5") in the glove box of a parked vehicle, so I just stopped carrying it altogether.

 

[RobMofSD]

I used to keep a Cold Steel Safe Maker II Push knife attached to the drivers side sun visor in my vehicle. So when the sun visor was in the up or closed position it couldn't be seen but when down blocking the sun it was visible and available to me if needed. I also carry a folding knife in the front right pocket of whatever pants I am wearing but that knife would be too slow to access or deploy while driving, seated and wearing a seat belt as required by California law.

When approaching a stop sign or red light I keep at least one car length between me and any vehicle in front of me. My doors are always locked and I am scanning my surroundings. Not paranoid just aware. Parking lots, gas stations, off ramps and on ramps are all possible places of vulnerability. I thought of the push knife as one would think of a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.

One day I was discussing this with a member of a certain motorcycle club and he advised me to be careful about this. I asked why and he mentioned that a fellow MC member was arrested for a fixed blade knife that he had attached to the handlebars of his motorcycle. The knife was in plain view and not concealed in any way. Not sure if the knife was discovered during a traffic stop or was observed while parked on the street and I didn't ask. But the end result was a conviction for the knife. I didn't ask what the exact charge was either.

So I took a beaded lanyard chain and would wear the push knife around my neck while driving then throw it in the glove box when exiting the vehicle. But this made me wonder if there was some possible crime for having a small fixed blade (3.5") in the glove box of a parked vehicle, so I just stopped carrying it altogether.

Shoot I have had more than one police officer yell me any double edge was illegal in California... granted I don't agree, but that is complicated when the police seem to believe it.

I would be cautious in general. Granted I even carry my CKF Eagle Rock... so I take the state at their word on folders lol.

 

[DocJekl]

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS? That something that is legal in one state becomes illegal when crossing the border in a new state is absolutely mind-boggling. Why should a tiny doubled edged blade and/or a tiny fixed blade be a crime anywhere in the USA? Pi$$es me off.

 

[killgar]

I used to keep a Cold Steel Safe Maker II Push knife attached to the drivers side sun visor in my vehicle. So when the sun visor was in the up or closed position it couldn't be seen but when down blocking the sun it was visible and available to me if needed. I also carry a folding knife in the front right pocket of whatever pants I am wearing but that knife would be too slow to access or deploy while driving, seated and wearing a seat belt as required by California law.

When approaching a stop sign or red light I keep at least one car length between me and any vehicle in front of me. My doors are always locked and I am scanning my surroundings. Not paranoid just aware. Parking lots, gas stations, off ramps and on ramps are all possible places of vulnerability. I thought of the push knife as one would think of a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.

One day I was discussing this with a member of a certain motorcycle club and he advised me to be careful about this. I asked why and he mentioned that a fellow MC member was arrested for a fixed blade knife that he had attached to the handlebars of his motorcycle. The knife was in plain view and not concealed in any way. Not sure if the knife was discovered during a traffic stop or was observed while parked on the street and I didn't ask. But the end result was a conviction for the knife. I didn't ask what the exact charge was either.

So I took a beaded lanyard chain and would wear the push knife around my neck while driving then throw it in the glove box when exiting the vehicle. But this made me wonder if there was some possible crime for having a small fixed blade (3.5") in the glove box of a parked vehicle, so I just stopped carrying it altogether.

I'm not questioning you, just the details of the other guys story, as there is no law against having a fixed-blade attached to any part of ones motorcycle, or automobile. If however the guy was on parole or probation, then possession of the knife would have been a parole/probation violation, and that can certainly result in arrest and send a person back to jail or prison. So maybe that was the reason.

I was just reading a case last night (People v Molina, 1994), researching the billy club laws of California. In that case a guy got stopped by the cops, he had a loaded gun, drugs, a "billy club", and several fixed-blades, including a machete, attached to various parts inside the driver compartment of his vehicle (some visible, some not). He was charged for the drugs, gun, and club, but not the knives or machete. Prosecutors like to pile as many charges as possible onto a defendant for a variety of reasons, so the fact that they did not charge Molina for the cutlery only serves to demonstrate that carrying cutlery in such a manner is not illegal in California.

I used to carry a fixed-blade attached to the handle bars of one of my bikes (Entrek Cobra, the kydex sheath was attached to the bars). These days, I have a boot knife attached to the side of my exposed battery, in plain view. I have two bikes, and I have a different sheath attached to each battery. Whichever bike I ride gets the knife. I've had a few close calls while stopped at red lights, faced with sketchy/deranged individuals, that make me glad I have that knife handy.

The handle of the knife is visible sticking up around the lower left corner of this pic. Just to the right of the handle is a silver hook (my helmet hook), despite how it looks the knife handle is lower than the hook. when I'm away from my bike, and I hang my helmet on the hook, the helmet completely covers the knife.