Neck knives aren't technically illegal in California are they ?

[killgar]

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS? That something that is legal in one state becomes illegal when crossing the border in a new state is absolutely mind-boggling. Why should a tiny doubled edged blade and/or a tiny fixed blade be a crime anywhere in the USA? Pi$$es me off.

Neither double-edged knives, nor push daggers, are illegal in California. So long as double-edged fixed-blades, including push daggers, are worn openly. In ones vehicle however, there is no requirement that knives be out in the open, as the statute regarding the illegality of concealed dirks/daggers specifically, and only, refers to carrying them "upon the person". Here's that statute- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=21310.&lawCode=PEN

There are only three references to knives and vehicles in the California penal code. One refers to undetectable knives being prohibited in any public transportation vehicle, the second is the prohibition on "switchblades" in vehicles in public places, and the third is a reference to the restrictions placed on people who are on parole/probation (no blade longer than 2" in a vehicle).

 

[DocJekl]

K killgar I guess you know what you're talking about, and yet, people seems to be worried about being arrested for "carrying it the wrong way". It's almost the same as being illegal, especially when the law is not enforced uniformly and innocent people spend even one night in jail over it, before having to post bail/bond and having an affirmative defense in court to be free.

 

[Outlawed]

 

[killgar]

K killgar I guess you know what you're talking about, and yet, people seems to be worried about being arrested for "carrying it the wrong way". It's almost the same as being illegal, especially when the law is not enforced uniformly and innocent people spend even one night in jail over it, before having to post bail/bond and having an affirmative defense in court to be free.

The reason I have put so much time an effort into researching and knowing California's knife and weapons laws, aside from wanting to avoid arrest, is because I have a criminal record (assault with a deadly weapon). That means if I get busted breaking any knife or weapons laws I'm going to be in a LOT more trouble than someone with no record.

And yet, I don't worry about being arrested. Because I make sure that everything I carry, and how I carry it, is legal.

I'm 53, lived in San Diego most of my life (my only time away was during my incarceration). I'm also a biker, and look the part. I'm exactly the kind of person one would expect to get hassled by the cops.

I've had many interactions with law enforcement personnel on the street during my life, and they have all been positive, despite being a biker, despite having visible weapons, and despite having a record. I treat them with respect, and they have always treated me with respect. I also don't engage in criminal activity. Aside from personal interactions I've crossed paths with more LEO's than I can count (cop cars stopped next to me at red lights, cops in restaurants and stores, etc), and I've never been hassled by any of them. Not even when they could see the big fixed-blade hanging on my belt.

So I just don't worry. And when I hear stories about people having bad run-in's with cops, I always have to wonder- what's the REAL story. Because I've known LOTS of guys who complained about being hassled by the cops, or who got arrested, or who told stories about others being arrested, and at the beginning of their story they say they weren't doing anything wrong, but then the more they talk the more they reveal all the shady, or downright illegal stuff they were doing at the time.

I'm not saying there aren't a-hole cops out there, I know there are, and they are a genuine concern. And believe me, I know how corrupt the criminal justice system is, I've been through it. But I don't believe in going through life afraid of the cops, or so afraid of being arrested that I give up my legal rights. My philosophy is- Know the law, know your rights, and make the best, informed effort to obey the law. I also believe in being respectful to LEO's, and not giving them attitude. That's my way of avoiding trouble.

Now on the subject of bad LEO's, I said that all of my interactions on the street were positive, but I have encountered some truly A-Hole LEO's off the street (sheriffs personnel). One was the lead detective in my case (lying scum), and a few others worked in the San Diego jails (power-trippers). But on the street, like I said, every LEO I've ever encountered, police, sheriffs deputies, highway patrol, have all been cool to me. In fact some were outright friendly, and on various occasions gave me a break when I accidentally broke the speed limit or violated some traffic code.

 

[RobMofSD]

The reason I have put so much time an effort into researching and knowing California's knife and weapons laws, aside from wanting to avoid arrest, is because I have a criminal record (assault with a deadly weapon). That means if I get busted breaking any knife or weapons laws I'm going to be in a LOT more trouble than someone with no record.

And yet, I don't worry about being arrested. Because I make sure that everything I carry, and how I carry it, is legal.

I'm 53, lived in San Diego most of my life (my only time away was during my incarceration). I'm also a biker, and look the part. I'm exactly the kind of person one would expect to get hassled by the cops.

I've had many interactions with law enforcement personnel on the street during my life, and they have all been positive, despite being a biker, despite having visible weapons, and despite having a record. I treat them with respect, and they have always treated me with respect. I also don't engage in criminal activity. Aside from personal interactions I've crossed paths with more LEO's than I can count (cop cars stopped next to me at red lights, cops in restaurants and stores, etc), and I've never been hassled by any of them. Not even when they could see the big fixed-blade hanging on my belt.

So I just don't worry. And when I hear stories about people having bad run-in's with cops, I always have to wonder- what's the REAL story. Because I've known LOTS of guys who complained about being hassled by the cops, or who got arrested, or who told stories about others being arrested, and at the beginning of their story they say they weren't doing anything wrong, but then the more they talk the more they reveal all the shady, or downright illegal stuff they were doing at the time.

I'm not saying there aren't a-hole cops out there, I know there are, and they are a genuine concern. And believe me, I know how corrupt the criminal justice system is, I've been through it. But I don't believe in going through life afraid of the cops, or so afraid of being arrested that I give up my legal rights. My philosophy is- Know the law, know your rights, and make the best, informed effort to obey the law. I also believe in being respectful to LEO's, and not giving them attitude. That's my way of avoiding trouble.

Now on the subject of bad LEO's, I said that all of my interactions on the street were positive, but I have encountered some truly A-Hole LEO's off the street (sheriffs personnel). One was the lead detective in my case (lying scum), and a few others worked in the San Diego jails (power-trippers). But on the street, like I said, every LEO I've ever encountered, police, sheriffs deputies, highway patrol, have all been cool to me. In fact some were outright friendly, and on various occasions gave me a break when I accidentally broke the speed limit or violated some traffic code.

I am a tech who is about to turn 50. And apparently a neighbor! El Cajon currently. Sherrif deputy stole a damn benchmade prototype 10 years or so ago.


You never know.

However you are in reality 100% right in how to deal.

I am still not sure on the kick stop knives like the new Chaves. Whats your take on switchblade or not in Cali?


Funny factoid though. Had a family friend who in the 80s had a coup write him like 40 speeding tickets hassling him... he is a biker. His wife was a judge... Hilarious response in court by the commissioner in traffic court.

 

[killgar]

I am a tech who is about to turn 50. And apparently a neighbor! El Cajon currently. Sherrif deputy stole a damn benchmade prototype 10 years or so ago.


You never know.

However you are in reality 100% right in how to deal.

I am still not sure on the kick stop knives like the new Chaves. Whats your take on switchblade or not in Cali?


Funny factoid though. Had a family friend who in the 80s had a coup write him like 40 speeding tickets hassling him... he is a biker. His wife was a judge... Hilarious response in court by the commissioner in traffic court.

I'm all about switchblades. I occasionally make them. And some of mine are my most favorite knives, and most prized possessions.

As far as switchblades and California law, here is California's legal definition of a "switchblade"- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=17235.&lawCode=PEN

And here is the statute explaining what is illegal regarding switchblades in California- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=21510.&lawCode=PEN

And here's my take on California's switchblade laws, based on research and case law (specifically People v SC, 2009, a juvenile case, so no name)-

Switchblades of any size are legal to own and have in ones home, or in any part of ones vehicle as long as the vehicle is not in a place open to the public.

If a switchblade is transported in a car, or in a place open to the public, it must be stored in the trunk.

It is illegal to have a switchblade on ones person (in a pocket, in ones clothing, in a belt sheath, carried in a backpack/bag etc) anywhere in the state, including on private property, on ones own property, and even in ones own home (but who's going to know).

It's legal to buy switchblades in California, and under state law to order them from out of state, but it's illegal for someone in California to sell a switchblade to someone else in California.

Again, that's my take on the law.

There is currently a lawsuit underway to try and overturn the switchblade laws in California, but I won't hold my breath.

 

[RobMofSD]

I'm all about switchblades. I occasionally make them. And some of mine are my most favorite knives, and most prized possessions.

As far as switchblades and California law, here is California's legal definition of a "switchblade"- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=17235.&lawCode=PEN

And here is the statute explaining what is illegal regarding switchblades in California- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca....aySection.xhtml?sectionNum=21510.&lawCode=PEN

And here's my take on California's switchblade laws, based on research and case law (specifically People v SC, 2009, a juvenile case, so no name)-

Switchblades of any size are legal to own and have in ones home, or in any part of ones vehicle as long as the vehicle is not in a place open to the public.

If a switchblade is transported in a car, or in a place open to the public, it must be stored in the trunk.

It is illegal to have a switchblade on ones person (in a pocket, in ones clothing, in a belt sheath, carried in a backpack/bag etc) anywhere in the state, including on private property, on ones own property, and even in ones own home (but who's going to know).

It's legal to buy switchblades in California, and under state law to order them from out of state, but it's illegal for someone in California to sell a switchblade to someone else in California.

Again, that's my take on the law.

There is currently a lawsuit underway to try and overturn the switchblade laws in California, but I won't hold my breath.

The "or other mechanical device" is what has me thinking that the kickstop knives would be considered a switchblade. Since the flipper is not actually part of the blade (the part that gets flippers out of being switchblades in Cali). I was wondering if you think I am correct on that?

I am so hoping the Ritter lawsuit gets a win on smashing the switchblade laws.

 

[killgar]

The "or other mechanical device" is what has me thinking that the kickstop knives would be considered a switchblade. Since the flipper is not actually part of the blade (the part that gets flippers out of being switchblades in Cali). I was wondering if you think I am correct on that?

I am so hoping the Ritter lawsuit gets a win on smashing the switchblade laws.

I looked at the Chaves knives (flipper knives), and in my opinion they are legal, and do not meet the definition of a "switchblade" under California law (CA pc 17235).

First, in my opinion, the flipper is a part of the blade. It's all part of the same piece of steel.

And second, although the statute specifically refers to using ones thumb to open a knife, the difference between a thumb and a finger is insignificant. And from my experience with flipper knives, particularly ones with pocket clips, it only take a little practice to activate the flipper with ones thumb (grip the pocket clip with your fingers, and thumb the flipper). It's not necessary to open the knife that way as a standard practice, but only if you actually had to prove that it could be opened that way to meet the criteria of the exception in the law. Just being able to open the knife with ones thumb, by applying pressure to any part of the blade, meets the requirement, even if it's a bit awkward.

Also, being frame locks, I assume the Chaves knives have a ball detent set into the lock that creates a bias towards the closed position, and again, one of the characteristics of a folder that is exempt from the switchblade law is the presence of a detent.

I wouldn't have any concerns carrying a Chaves flipper-frame lock in California. Or any other flipper-opening knife with a detent.

 

[RobMofSD]

I looked at the Chaves knives (flipper knives), and in my opinion they are legal, and do not meet the definition of a "switchblade" under California law (CA pc 17235).

First, in my opinion, the flipper is a part of the blade. It's all part of the same piece of steel.

And second, although the statute specifically refers to using ones thumb to open a knife, the difference between a thumb and a finger is insignificant. And from my experience with flipper knives, particularly ones with pocket clips, it only take a little practice to activate the flipper with ones thumb (grip the pocket clip with your fingers, and thumb the flipper). It's not necessary to open the knife that way as a standard practice, but only if you actually had to prove that it could be opened that way to meet the criteria of the exception in the law. Just being able to open the knife with ones thumb, by applying pressure to any part of the blade, meets the requirement, even if it isn't very slick looking.

Also, being frame locks, I assume the Chaves knives have a ball detent set into the lock that creates a bias towards the closed position, and again, one of the characteristics of a folder that is exempt from the switchblade law is the presence of a detent.

I wouldn't have any concerns carrying a Chaves flipper-frame lock in California. Or any other flipper-opening knife with a detent.

Don't look at the flipper... look at the new kickstop. It uses a seperate flipper that tucks away after use. You are not pressing on the blade. They do have a detent.

 

[killgar]

Don't look at the flipper... look at the new kickstop. It uses a seperate flipper that tucks away after use. You are not pressing on the blade. They do have a detent.

Ohhh, I see, I was looking at the regular flipper Chaves knives.

I just watched a video for the Ultramar 229 Redencion Kick Stop, and yes, I believe that would definitely qualify as a switchblade under California law. I've never seen an opening mechanism like that before. Good catch.

 

[DocJekl]

Ohhh, I see, I was looking at the regular flipper Chaves knives.

I just watched a video for the Ultramar 229 Redencion Kick Stop, and yes, I believe that would definitely qualify as a switchblade under California law. I've never seen an opening mechanism like that before. Good catch.

However, unlike a switch blade, the blade doesn't open under its own power with the kick stop flipper. It's still using the finger's pressure against the detent to cause a build up before the blade releases from the detent and opens, again caused by your finger pressure; except that there is a small hinged bar of unsprung metal between your finger and the blade. If I took a pencil and pushed the flipper on a normal flipper knife until it opened, does that make a normal flipper a switchblade (using BATFE logic).

I don't have the statute in front of me, but I wonder if this would exclude the kick stop from being a switchblade, because last I checked it seems to be sold everywhere flippers are allowed without restriction.

 

[RobMofSD]

However, unlike a switch blade, the blade doesn't open under its own power with the kick stop flipper. It's still using the finger's pressure against the detent to cause a build up before the blade releases from the detent and opens, again caused by your finger pressure; except that there is a small hinged bar of unsprung metal between your finger and the blade. If I took a pencil and pushed the flipper on a normal flipper knife until it opened, does that make a normal flipper a switchblade (using BATFE logic).

I don't have the statute in front of me, but I wonder if this would exclude the kick stop from being a switchblade, because last I checked it seems to be sold everywhere flippers are allowed without restriction.

https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=17235.&lawCode=PEN

The exclusion is very specific and based on pressure to the blade. The kickstop is a mechanism that is not part of the blade.

 

[RobMofSD]

However, unlike a switch blade, the blade doesn't open under its own power with the kick stop flipper. It's still using the finger's pressure against the detent to cause a build up before the blade releases from the detent and opens, again caused by your finger pressure; except that there is a small hinged bar of unsprung metal between your finger and the blade. If I took a pencil and pushed the flipper on a normal flipper knife until it opened, does that make a normal flipper a switchblade (using BATFE logic).

I don't have the statute in front of me, but I wonder if this would exclude the kick stop from being a switchblade, because last I checked it seems to be sold everywhere flippers are allowed without restriction.

Another thought.

I honestly don't think people really even thought through the ramifications of a secondary component for opening as it is just a "flipper." Except, it isn't. But I think people assume it's the same. Kind of like the bump-stock, it was assumed to be ok, until it wasn't.

 

[killgar]

However, unlike a switch blade, the blade doesn't open under its own power with the kick stop flipper. It's still using the finger's pressure against the detent to cause a build up before the blade releases from the detent and opens, again caused by your finger pressure; except that there is a small hinged bar of unsprung metal between your finger and the blade. If I took a pencil and pushed the flipper on a normal flipper knife until it opened, does that make a normal flipper a switchblade (using BATFE logic).

I don't have the statute in front of me, but I wonder if this would exclude the kick stop from being a switchblade, because last I checked it seems to be sold everywhere flippers are allowed without restriction.

In my opinion, it would qualify as a switchblade under the statute. I linked the California definition of a "switchblade" in post #26.

California law doesn't require that the blade of a knife open under it's own power, like by a compressed spring, in order to be considered a "switchblade".

Also, the statute defining a "switchblade" specifically refers to opening the knife by "a flick of a button", "other mechanical device", as well as "by any other mechanism whatsoever". I think the Kick Stop meets those definitions.

Because the knife can be opened by a "flick of a button", "mechanical device" or "other mechanism" (the Kick Stop lever), and because this does not require one to apply any pressure directly to the blade with any part of their hand (the Kick Stop lever is a separate piece from the blade), and because the blade is over the 2" length limit, I believe that it meets the California definition of a "switchblade".

The presence of a detent alone does not disqualify a knife as a "switchblade". In order to not be considered a "switchblade", a folding knife needs three specific characteristics- 1. The absence of a mechanical device that is capable of overcoming the closed bias. 2. It must be possible to open the knife with pressure applied directly to some part of the blade, or a piece fixed to the blade, with ones hand. 3. There must be a mechanism that holds the knife in the closed position. Take for example a double-action side-opening switchblade. Even though it has a detent (closed bias), and can be opened manually by thumb pressure applied to the blade, the fact that it can also be opened by means of a mechanical device is enough to make it a "switchblade".

The reason using a pencil or other object to open a knife would not make that knife a "switchblade" is because that other object is not a part of the knife. Whether or not a knife is a "switchblade" depends on how it can be opened directly by ones hand.

What distinguishes the Kick Stop from a typical assisted-opening knife is that on an assisted-opening knife there is no mechanism present to overcome the closed-bias when opening the knife, the spring only completes the opening process after the bias is overcome by ones hand. That may seem like a small distinction, but it's enough to make assisted knives legal. Of course in my opinion all prohibitions on switchblades are silly and make no sense.

I wouldn't want to take the gamble that an LEO, or a prosecutor, or a judge, wouldn't consider the Kick Stop a "switchblade" when it can be opened by flicking a mechanical lever. I don't think a prosecutor would have any difficulty convincing a judge and jury that the Kick Stop is a switchblade. And then you get to try your luck on an expensive appeal. And bear in mind that even a misdemeanor switchblade conviction, and a sentence of probation (typically 3 years) comes with a lot of restrictions, including, not being able to possess any firearms, or any knives not approved by your probation officer, and a lot more.

If Kick Stop knives are being sold within the state of California, that does not make them legal. I've heard that there are stores in California selling obvious switchblades, but they are still illegal. I wouldn't want to be the legal test case for the Kick Stop, not when there are plenty of other clearly legal knives to choose from.

This is a perfect example of something my attorney would say. Sometimes I would ask him if there was case law on a particular topic, and he'd respond- "No. Do YOU want to be the case law?". My answer to that is always "no".

 

[Hickory n steel]

Another thought.

I honestly don't think people really even thought through the ramifications of a secondary component for opening as it is just a "flipper." Except, it isn't. But I think people assume it's the same. Kind of like the bump-stock, it was assumed to be ok, until it wasn't.

It was never " assumed " to be okay, the AFT said they were.
The manufacturers were okayed to make them.

I agree on the knife in question, I know nothing about it but it has always been my understanding that you had to be directly applying pressure to part of the blade and if it's a seperate piece it could be considered a switchblade.

It has a detent and " bias towards closing " though right ? If so maybe it could go either way.
I wouldn't be surprised if the knife pushes the limits enough to get assisted openers knixed here though, because that would be easier than keeping track of all the loopholes and grey areas.

 

[Legendary_Jarl]

What is illegal is to conceal a fixed blade knife on your person, it has to be openly carried. If the neck knife is under your shirt then it us concealed.

 

[DocJekl]

PENAL CODE - PEN​

​

PART 6. CONTROL OF DEADLY WEAPONS [16000 - 34370]​

( Part 6 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

TITLE 1. PRELIMINARY PROVISIONS [16000 - 17360]​

( Title 1 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

DIVISION 2. DEFINITIONS [16100 - 17360]​

( Division 2 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )

17235. ​

As used in this part, “switchblade knife” means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. “Switchblade knife” does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.
(Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. (SB 1080) Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711.)

(1) So, in the three sections I highlighted in bold above calling the knife a switchblade (other than >2"), this kick stop falls under the third one. It's not in the first section regarding "spring...snap...gravity...", and not in the second second highlight "released automatically". But it is "released by any type of mechanism whatsoever".

That is a shitty way to describe a switchblade, to include a kick-stop by such a general definition; because the only difference is that the flipper stays out of the way after flipping it open, but the function is essentially the same as a legal knife. Likewise, Bump stocks should not be machine guns because the firing is still accomplished by ONE SHOT PER FUNCTION OF THE TRIGGER. It's just the shooter pulling the firearm forward against the recoil action that operates the trigger.

(2) By definition of "not switchblade", flippers almost meet that definition, if not for the fact that one could awkwardly (albeit dangerously to one's own self) open it with a thumb. I tried to open my Hinderer XM-18 with my thumb and flung the knife across the room on my first try. If I cat paw the knife, with my pinkie and ring finger clutching the pocket clip, I can just barely get it to flick open without losing it. The rest of the time it only opens half-way. It's also a piss poor definition of Not Switchblade. Probably NONE of the people writing the law have ever used a flipper knife, a switchblade, or assisted knife.

 

[RobMofSD]

(1) So, in the three sections I highlighted in bold above calling the knife a switchblade (other than >2"), this kick stop falls under the third one. It's not in the first section regarding "spring...snap...gravity...", and not in the second second highlight "released automatically". But it is "released by any type of mechanism whatsoever".

That is a shitty way to describe a switchblade, to include a kick-stop by such a general definition; because the only difference is that the flipper stays out of the way after flipping it open, but the function is essentially the same as a legal knife. Likewise, Bump stocks should not be machine guns because the firing is still accomplished by ONE SHOT PER FUNCTION OF THE TRIGGER. It's just the shooter pulling the firearm forward against the recoil action that operates the trigger.

(2) By definition of "not switchblade", flippers almost meet that definition, if not for the fact that one could awkwardly (albeit dangerously to one's own self) open it with a thumb. I tried to open my Hinderer XM-18 with my thumb and flung the knife across the room on my first try. If I cat paw the knife, with my pinkie and ring finger clutching the pocket clip, I can just barely get it to flick open without losing it. The rest of the time it only opens half-way. It's also a piss poor definition of Not Switchblade. Probably NONE of the people writing the law have ever used a flipper knife, a switchblade, or assisted knife.

Traditional flippers fall on the "does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife," remember it does not say edge, just blade. The flipper tab is a part of the blade. That is how that is read.

The kick-stop is just screwed by this law.

 

[DocJekl]

Traditional flippers fall on the "does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife," remember it does not say edge, just blade. The flipper tab is a part of the blade. That is how that is read.

The kick-stop is just screwed by this law.

That's what I said, just I used the long way of doing it. My point was they specify deployed by the thumb, and I'm saying that's stupid because a flipper deployed by the thumb is likely to get you or someone else cut.

 

[RobMofSD]

That's what I said, just I used the long way of doing it. My point was they specify deployed by the thumb, and I'm saying that's stupid because a flipper deployed by the thumb is likely to get you or someone else cut.

No. What I meant is that it is either thumb OR part of the blade. So you don't need to use the thumb on a flipper.