Need a good folder for diving and boating.

[STR]

The Boye knife is non magnetic. Although Cliff apparently was not impressed with this knife Practical Sailer did a review of 14 different knives including the Boye knife and the Boye knife was the one they picked as the best knife.

http://www.boyeknives.com/reviews.cfm

This review, coming from people that use the knife they carry while boating at sea seems to hold some weight in my book.

As I said. GPS is electronic. Many people buy the GPS system for their boats and many don't replace it when it stops working a year or two later once they realize it is an ongoing cost to keep it up in a salt water environment. Maybe things have changed in the last six years with longevity for these electronic items I don't know. It is possible I guess. Last I heard they were just something else to have to care for, maintain and replace considered by the guys I knew as another expense on top of many others. Perhaps to those doing the cruise thing for a living it is a viable expense. The guys I know that have personal craft don't bother with it.

 

[xsrdx]

kgriggs8 said, "or maybe an orange Rescue "

Can't go wrong with a Rescue around water. The C14SOR is my choice for a scuba folder, along with a 440C Gerber Patriot fixed blade.

The ATS55 will spot-rust if not rinsed quickly after exposure to salt water, but a quick brush with a brass bristle brush or steel wool will restore it easily. I treat the blade periodically with BreakFree CLP, just wiping it down, and that helps keep rust from forming even after prolonged exposure. Keep in mind, the knife is on my dive gear, so it's completely immersed in salt water regularly.

The orange handle is great, especially at depth, and it's easy to manipulate one handed. Great blade shape for marine utility, IMO.

 

[Pete1977]

Don't forget about the magnetic nature of what you carry. The reason I say this is because I don't know if you own your own boat or if you plan to hire someone to take you out to dive or fish or whatever. When I lived near the ocean many times my wife and I were invited out on friends boats. On more than one occassion the owner, no, I'm sorry, the "Captain" of the boat or one of the crew would ask us before we even got to the boat if we had any metal items that would attract a magnet on us and if so they made us leave them behind. This included knives, belt buckles, and anything else with a magnetic signiture. So, if the knife you have has a magnetic signiture you may not get to take it with you unless you have your own boat and you are the "Captain", and even then you won't want to be carrying it when you get near the compass.

Mainly in "traditional" boating out at sea where you lose sight of land, especially out at sea at night where the only things to guide you besides the stars are your wits and your steering compass you want a knife that won't give that compass false readings if it gets too close to it. If you carry a knife or anything for that matter that has a magnetic signiture you have to remember to take it off and do without it when sailing and/or when getting near the steering compass on a boat which is generally a pain to remember and pain to have to do without your knife if you are like me and used to carrying one at all times.

One off reading because of a magnetic influence on your steering compass could be very costly if supplies were running low, a storm was approaching or you didn't catch the err until you had already gone quite a ways off course. Just imagine heading due east for 20 miles and then heading back at what you thought was due west to go home for 20 miles and then still not seeing any sign of land because one of your passengers was too close to the compass and had metal on him while standing with you by the wheel. You just found out the hard way by going 20 miles north or south and not west as you thought. (extreme I know but you get the point.)

In some instances say after a bad storm when your modern day electronic satellite tracking goes off line you still have to use the old fashioned methods to get you home safely. But actually a surprising number of people still don't have modern day electronic tracking stuff like that on board their vessels. For one thing, electronics in a salt water environment have to be specially protected just like everything else you have in a salt water environment also so most people are pretty stubborn about investing in something else to have to buy every couple of years. Buying a new electric generator on average every two years due to salt water corrossion is bad enough.

I've seen many stainless knives basically turned useless in a matter of weeks from the ocean. Just somemore food for thought if it applies.

STR-

Carrying a steel bladed knife around a ship's compass usually has minimal, if any, effect on the deviation of that compass. Most boats have magnetic metal parts actually used in their construction, and these parts, plus other factors, affect the compass' reading. It is called deviation. There is a simple formula, requiring only a deviation chart which should be aboard the boat if the compass has been recently calibrated by a professional, a nautical chart, which gives the variation, or the difference between the true north pole, and the magnetic one, (in the northeastern US waters it is about 16-18 degrees west of true north) and a compass. Using the formula, which is taught in any basic seamanship or navigation class, you should be able, even with no electronics aboard or working, get an accurate position and heading.

Also, I have never used H-1 in any knife, and I work around the water all the time. I carry a vg-10 endura, and have done so for about two or three months now. It hasn't displayed a single sign of corrosion in that time.
My number one concern with a knife used on a boat is that it will be sharp when you need it in an emergency. Edge retention is imperative. So is carrying a backup, or spare knife. If you are blue water sailing, offshore fishing, or cruising, and you will be away from land from days to months, you increase your chances of losing your knife overboard, and will want another to replace it.

Aboard the boat, taped to one strap of my oilskins, I carry a fixed blade knife for easy, immediate access. A folder may be fumbled if your hands are wet, cold, gloved, etc.
check out benchmade's 100SH20 (??) fixed bladed, h-1 knife. It may suit your needs better when diving or boating.

Plus, you can always get the spydie anyways

cheers
Pete

 

[brownshoe]

According to his literature, Boye's serrations are designed to compete with his basic plain edge. They offer increased cutting power with primarily rope over his regular plain edge. It's by design that they are not pointy like spydercos because, as stated, they don't hang up in some materials and you can sharpen them with a stone and don't need a special sharpener. So being "inferior" to some serrations actually makes them "superior" in some applications, but his serrations should be better than his plain edge on rope.

 

[Pete1977]

Although I have never seen a Boye knife in person, in the pictures I have seen, boye's serrated edges seem to be "scalloped" edges, which are usually used to increase the surface area of the sharp edge, without increasing the length of the knife's blade. Spyderedge serrations were designed to use the points to make the initial cut in the medium, thus saving the curved edges from the brunt of the work. Serrations like cold steel seem to be a purely "ripping" cut, and my least favorite of them. Cold steel serrations, in my experience, tend to hang up more in fibrous material. Sharp spyderedge serrations have cut easily through denim and corduroy without hanging up on threads or fibers, loose hung t-shirts, and old bath towels. When they are dull they tend to have more resistance, and pull more on the cloth, but when sharp, my tests on the above material showed that they cut aggressively through both taut and loose cloth materials.

 

[STR]

Pete1977

I've been around enough boats that were docked to test your theory that a metal knife has little affect if any on the steering compass of a boat. The needle of the compass would follow me as I walked sometimes so I don't agree with your comments based on my own personal experiences. It does have an affect I've seen it.

Sailers wouldn't caution people about carrying metal on board before going on a cruise if this was not an issue they have had to deal with at one time or another. Granted not all make the passengers remove their items, they do however, ask them to stay away from the steering compass.

I doubt knife makers would feel the need to make a knife of a 'non magnetic' material for both military and civilian sailers if this wasn't an issue. Navy Seals are not the only ones needing non magnetic knives for working around mines.

I am glad to hear your stainless blade is holding up for you but this isn't the usual case. Some of the guys I know get about 2 to 3 months life out of similar knives to yours on the ocean. I think there is a market for titanium and non magnetic knives just for these reasons or they wouldn't even be available. That is why 'magnetic interference' is one of the criteria used in testing marine use or sailor knives.

Also, my boat is made entirely of aluminum and non magnetic materials like fiberglass and resins including a large portion of the engine components. I'm sure you are correct about other metal being around the boat. But those are not variables like the metal on a passenger would be. So, as you pointed out they can be corrected for.

Good info.

http://www.boyeknives.com/images/review.pdf

 

[Pete1977]

Pete1977

I've been around enough boats that were docked to test your theory that a metal knife has little affect if any on the steering compass of a boat. The needle of the compass would follow me as I walked sometimes so I don't agree with your comments based on my own personal experiences. It does have an affect I've seen it.

Sailers wouldn't caution people about carrying metal on board before going on a cruise if this was not an issue they have had to deal with at one time or another. Granted not all make the passengers remove their items, they do however, ask them to stay away from the steering compass.

I doubt knife makers would feel the need to make a knife 'non magnetic' for civilian sailers if this wasn't an issue. Navy Seals are not the only ones needing non magnetic knives.

http://www.boyeknives.com/images/review.pdf

STR-
I won't debate your boating experience or knowlege in this thread. I simply stated that a knife in your pocket has minimal effect on the deviation of a compass reading, and compared to the other magnetic metallic items aboard a power or sailing vessel, including screws, rails, stays, cables, turnbuckles, blocks, etc, that the steel in a knife blade, unless it was placed directly next to the compass, would likely be a nonissue.

a nonmagnetic knife may have its benefits aboard ship, but it is hindered by its cost. Most boaters unfortunately are not knife people, although they should be, a good knife may save their life. However, most recreational boaters, commercial fishermen, blue water sailors, etc. are cost concious and tend to consider more wallet friendly tools. I can't begin to list the $#it knives I have seen on the boats I have been on.

this thread, however, is about a knife to use around water, and I don't want to hijack it with a discussion on navigation and seamanship, so I will refrain further from commenting on this subject. If you would like to continue this discussion, feel free to send me a private message. I will be more than happy to continue it there.

Take care

Peter

 

[STR]

I have seen some crap knives on boats also. In fact I have one still from the last time I was in Florida.

I guess if you lose alot of knives you wouldn't want to have much invested in one.

I am sorry if my comments came across wrong. I don't want to debate more on it either. I have been long winded enough on this thread. Chances are most of the over abundance of info is more than was needed for the original author of this thread anyways. So, my apologies if I went 'overboard'. (Pun intended!)

 

[kgriggs8]

It is going to be used in fresh water 90% of the time and salt water the other 10% when I go to the coast. I live in Indiana so there is not a lot of salt water. I go Kayaking on lakes and rivers most of the time and some swimming/diving/boating when I got to the coast. I guess rust resistantance is not as important for me as someone that would use it everyday in salt water. I can clean my knife after a day out or after the vacation.

It will get sand and gunk in the lock and insides though. Is there a folder that would deal with sand and gunk better than others? Maybe it should be able to be taken apart for cleaning.

I know a fixed blade would be better in a lot of ways but that fact is, i won't carry a fixed blade because I feel strange with one strapped to me. A folder can be carried and concealed so I don't look like a tool. Well, I may still look like a tool but not because of my knife. Hehe.

 

[trains are bad]

I worked at a marina for 3 years and never wanted for anything but the same Spyderco delica plain edge. Saved my life and at least one expensive boat.

 

[Mike Ferrara]

I might be a new knife makerbut I'm not so new to diving. LOL I dive a lot, everything from caves to wrecks. As a side note since Kgriggs8 is from Indiana, I used to own a dive shop in Lafayette untill it started to interfere with my diving. I'm very picky about equipment configuration and here's my tast in dive knives...although it may not meet your other needs. Also in my case the knife is primarily there as insurance in case of entanglemens which can happen using lines in caves or in busted up wrecks. I use a CHEAP kitchen knife like a steak knife...a two dollar kind of thing. I break the blade off so it's only a couple of inches long (the point is useless anyway). I scrounge or make a tight fitting sheath with no tie downs (friction holds the knife in) because when you need it you sometimes need it fast. I wear it on my belt just left of center where I can reach it with either hand.

I also carry a pair of EMP shears in a thight pocket. These will cut anything including steel wire and other stuff that the knife won't even scratch. The only exception is that sometimes I put the knife in the thight pocket and wear the shears on the belt.

Personally I would NEVER consider a folder for a dive knife. Even one that can be opened one handed would be tough to open with heavy wet or dry gloves on and cold water is par for the course in this part of the world. Big expensive knives worn on the leg are just entanglements waiting to happen and once your tied up you likely won't be able to get to the knife anyway. Although if you need a digging or prying tool the bigger knive certainly serve those specialized functions.

So for diving...small, sharp, fast/accessable and cheap is what works best for me.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The Boye knife is non magnetic.

You can magnetize a steel knife of course, just as you could with the rest of the steel on boats. When using a compass you have to be aware of such influences and take steps to deal with them. Many people, including survival experts pack a compass with them while they pack a lot of steel gear, some of it is even magnetized. Magnetic fields are inverse square so you have to put it very close to a compass to effect it. As with all navigation equipement it takes knowledge to use it correctly.

Although Cliff apparently was not impressed with this knife ...

I was not impressed with the cutting ability compared to various other knives, for example the serrated version took 26.0 +/- 1.2 lbs to cut through 3/8" hemp (unsupported), the Alantic Salt took 7.0 +/- 1.0, it is a very smooth cut. The difference grows on larger and harder to cut ropes like large pieces of poly.

The Salt also has more bite on plastics and other hard synthetics. I used Boye's on a variety of material and found little to no use for it compared to even a polished plain edge (Sharpmaker fine) let alone a coarse one (Sharpmaker medium) which was many times over more aggressive than it.

[Practical Sailer]

The review while a lot better than most because they never compare knives, does ignore many aspects of performance which would skew the performance in favor of a Rescue such as :

-larger handle being more ergonomic in many uses and very much more secure

-much harder blade material able to handle much more difficult cutting without rolling or indenting on accidental impacts

-edge retention of the much harder steel

The H1's also have much more corrosion resistance than the older Rescues.

None of this makes Boye's knives a horrible choice, I would take either of them compared to a lot of what I have used, however for their price you can easily exceed their performance.

I was impressed with a lot of aspects of the Boye folders of course, solid lockup and security, nice thin edge which readily took an edge on the Sharpmaker with no profiling, no sharp bits on the handle, customer service was prompt from Boye, etc. .

This review, coming from people that use the knife they carry while boating at sea seems to hold some weight in my book.

My family have been fishermen here for many generations, I have been on boats more than once. Most fisherman around here actually carry very cheap knives, usually Buck knockoff's. Does this somehow make what I said any more valid, it should not.

The smaller local boats don't even use a compass as they didn't use to go out side of land (inshore shoal fishing), the ones that did go outside did, and they of course carried a lot of steel gear, knives, hooks, gaffs, spears, etc., all of this containing a lot more steel than a small pocket knife .

Sailers wouldn't caution people about carrying metal on board before going on a cruise if this was not an issue ...

Facts and logic are not the only thing that dictates policy, on board boats and elsewhere. As noted it is common to find a lot of steel on board fishing boats which use a compass. Yes GPS is nice, but you didn't always have it.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I will say this. I used my SE Salt yesterday to cut off an old leaking lower radiator hose on my 55 International (my baby) and it cut through that thing like a hot knife going through butter. Saved me a bunch of work trying to get off an old corroded strap too.

That was the first time I have been really really impressed with the Spyderco serrattions. Usually they hung up on the rope and other softer materials I used it on making it hard to get it to start cutting instead of grabbing. But with this old hardened from age almost brittle rubber hose it ate it up nicely.

.

 

[STR]

Oh yeah. Almost forgot. Shomer Tec did a review of that Boye knife also. As I recall it was a three or four month test of use on the ocean. The knife didn't corrode or suffer from the salt water at all. Not sure of how to find that test but it may be out there also.

I rather like the dendritic steel. It sharpens easier than anything else I've ever had and I think it cuts great. It may require more push to cut with from the start like Cliff pointed out but I doubt it changes cut after cut after cut like it will with the other knives. I think David's point was that it kept that same edge consistantly over time and use and that it could be relied on to do so. I've found that to be true in my use.

Cliff I'd be interested in seeing a test like you stated for starting out on 3/8 rope where the Boye knife required 26 lbs and the Spyderco 7, only start the test on cut number 50 with each knife and then see how the two steels compare on the same material after 50 or more cuts in the rope. (or even after 25 or 30 cuts also) Forgive if you are ahead of me and already did, but if so provide the link please.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The knife didn't corrode or suffer from the salt water at all.

The Cobalt alloys need extreme enviroment to induce corrosion, very harsh chemicals or extreme temperatures, the user would long be dead. H1 is similar as is Beta-Ti.

[dendretic]

It sharpens easier than anything else I've ever had and I think it cuts great.

Both of these are due to the geometry not the steel, especially the second one.

It may require more push to cut with from the start like Cliff pointed out but I doubt it changes cut after cut after cut like it will with the other knives.

Unless your other knives are made out of copper this isn't the expected performance. I have ground knives out of mild steel and have done 126 cuts with a gain of ~20 lbs through the cutting, so this is half a dozen cuts per pound and this is again *mild* steel.

start the test on cut number 50 with each knife and then see how the two steels compare on the same material after 50 or more cuts in the rope. (or even after 25 or 30 cuts also)

Serrated edges will ignore 50 cuts like I ignore flames. I attempted this with Missions serrated edge which is in Beta-Ti and did 256 cuts and saw a difference of a couple of pounds, barely measureable.

I did run a few loose trials of the plain edged Boye vs a few S30V knives and it wasn't in the same league. This was EDC with alternating use during the cutting. The Boye knife was resharpened several times and the S30V knives not.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

Supposedly the Rc hardness of the dendritic steel is 40, but the carbide crystals are like 70Rc so that would explain the cutting and edge retention.

I think you are the only one that has used this Boye knife that doesn't think it cuts great Cliff. The edge on the one I have always has a nice bite to it. Always.

I have an old old article about dendritic steel from one of the blade or knife mags before it was available in mass like now and even that went on and on about how well dendritic steel cut due to the aggressive hard teeth and so on..

Something isn't right. This knife simply cuts better than you describe. I'm sorry, but it does.

Here is a link to an add I found for it. Even they say how well it cuts as one of the selling points. Are you suggesting that this is just a flat out lie?
http://www.shomer-tec.com/site/product.cfm?id=99884DF0-0F9B-7016-B469823B3482F249

BTW, I just read your review on the two knives you tested. Did not catch earlier that you had both a serrated and plain edge to test.

One question. What was your reason for comparing this small blade knife to the Chinook which is a whole different league in size and blade thickness and also made for different purposes? Woudn't it make more sense to compare it to say another boat knife of a same or similar size?

 

[STR]

But to go on to more info about the Salt 1. I have been carrying my upgrade that I built myself for some time. I carried it for a while before I rebuilt the handles to my liking also and I must say I am impressed with both the steel's corrosion resistance and the cutting and edge retention.

Krigs you can't go wrong with any of the Spyderco Salt knives. The edge retention of the serratted is up there with anything else I've ever used. I have literally been standing in 3" high shavings from trying to see how long I could whittle with it and finally just gave up. It has needed very little attention since buying it.

About the only thing I'd like to see done different with this H1 series of water and marine use knives by Spyderco is to see Sal offer them with a half serration pattern and go one step further and offer it with a half serratted blade where the serrattions were up toward the tip leaving the back plain edge. Kind of like this knife offered by A.G.Russell. http://www.agrussell.com/content/view/full/7576.html

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Supposedly the Rc hardness of the dendritic steel is 40, but the carbide crystals are like 70Rc so that would explain the cutting and edge retention.

Annealed steel is full of hard carbides, it doesn't have great edge retention, and carbides are far too small to do any cutting. Wear resistance is secondary to deformation in most cutting which is why steeling makes such a massive difference as you are correcting roll and deformation. If the base material is soft and it rolls it doesn't matter if the carbides didn't wear as the edge isn't formed any more.

I think you are the only one that has used this Boye knife that doesn't think it cuts great...

This is what I said in the review :

"If a really high corrosion resistance is required then these are an excellent choice, ergonomic handles, secure lock, easy to sharpen and solid cutting ability."

I would not argue that it doesn't cut great as that is too vague to contend as you have not given a baseline.

In general I was not extremely impressed with the cutting ability having lots of knives that would out cut them several times over as noted.

Mainly I was disappointed as I was expecting the performance similar to the Boye hunters which had much more acute edge profiles, I was pretty surprised by the shallow hollow grinds.

I was expecting something more like the U2 actually.

I have an old old article about dendritic steel from one of the blade or knife mags before it was available in mass like now and even that went on and on about how well dendritic steel cut due to the aggressive hard teeth and so on..

Yeah that is nonsense, you can find the same thing about wootz, there are lots of myths about knives. The size of carbides is too small to provide aggression on a slice, you can see this if you just look at the edge under mild magnification 10x-20x and compare a polished dendretic edge to a medium spyderco finished non-dendritic edge.

The reasons that dendretic steels got a reputation for high aggression is because of two reasons. First off all Boye ground his older blades, specifically his drop point hunters and the smaller folders which high flat grinds and very thin edges, ~0.005" so the cutting ability was high and the edges were left coarse which raised the slicing aggression.

Here is a link to an add I found for it. Even they say how well it cuts as one of the selling points. Are you suggesting that this is just a flat out lie?
http://www.shomer-tec.com/site/product.cfm?id=99884DF0-0F9B-7016-B469823B3482F249

Depends, there are two common definations of lying, one means to tell false information with the intent to deceive, the other ignores intent. I personally use the first one and I don't think the above is lying, they probably believe it themselves. However it does contains lots of false information as well as pure promotional hype such as :

"will out-cut any other knife"

which is nonsense, when you see something that over the top you basically write it off as promotional fluff.

I have lots of knives which will out cut that one, some many times over. As well not all materials are uniformly cut better by the same knife, there are lots of things that an Alantic Salt will out cut an Opinel on for example, the reverse is true as well.

Arguing for performance because you can find an ad for a knife supporting your viewpoint is hardly solid ground, take a look around and see some of the ads that are out there. Even Shomer-Tec isn't consistent, they have no problem stating this in another ad :

"In fact, the overall feel, cutting prowess, and carry comfort will convince you to select this knife as your first choice for everyday carry."

and yet about another knife still :

"No matter how many knives you own, the Clipit® is the one that you will carry and use. "

etc.

What was your reason for comparing this small blade knife to the Chinook which is a whole different league in size and blade thickness and also made for different purposes? Woudn't it make more sense to compare it to say another boat knife of a same or similar size?

That comparions was used to reference the edge retention of the steel, it wasn't extended to overall functionality, on such a comparison the Salt or the Calypso Jr. would be more sensible choices which would have been the case if the review was more extensive. I didn't do it because the performance wasn't there and I had looked at the blade material extensively already.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

It wasn't just any add, but an add from a company known for selling top of the line stuff. So, I guess the adds from Shomer Tec for the Busse and Emerson knives they sell side by side with the Boye are hype also then since all they do is, what did you call it? Push promotional fluff and nonsense?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It wasn't just any add, but an add from a company known for selling top of the line stuff.

The key words there would be "ad", "selling".

So, I guess the adds from Shomer Tec for the Busse and Emerson knives they sell side by side with the Boye are hype also then since all they do is, what did you call it? Push promotional fluff and nonsense?

Yes, there is similar nonsense in the Emerson ads like "deep biting ATS-34 steel".

One of the quotes in the above was from the Rat Trap page. Yes they contain pure fluff as well.

Of course every knife they sell is the one you will pick had you all choices available. There is kind of a problem with that obviously.

-Cliff