Need a little HELP on a Design Please?

[Kevin Jones]

I would like your help on a design I have been kicking around. It’s a Ring Guard Bowie.

We see San Francisco Bowies equipped with double ring guards, however single ring guards on bowies seem more rare. I’ve seen photos in the past of historical examples and liked them. It’s kind of cool how they can be twirled (similar to side arms) while sheathing them, though not so sure I would recommend it.

I’m planning on having this piece (or an altered design of it) made. I have a maker in mind to possibly create this bowie. Though I have an order with him coming up very soon we have not discussed this design. Before discussing it with him and getting his input I would appreciate feedback (positive and negative) and suggestions from you here.

I’m wondering how much interest there is in Ring Guard Bowies?

These are just sketches, the proportions are close however they are not scaled drawings.

The first has an approximately 9” Damascus blade and the second an 8” with a slightly different blade profile. I believe the guard, frame and fittings on both will also be Damascus though I haven’t decided on a pattern as of yet. Spacers are fileworked stainless steel. Frame constructed coffin shaped handles w/stainless fileworked liners and mammoth ivory slabs.

• Any suggestions/input as to the knife make-up?

• And which blade length and profile do you prefer?

Thank you in advance for all your comments, opinions and feedback.

 

[percy]

Don't think about twirling it too much. I made a chef's like that for someone who twirled it too much and it started cutting on the way around.
Either design looks great.
Good luck

 

[sheathmaker]

Kevin, I like the blade profile on the shorter blade. The straighter the clip, the better for me. I think the frame coffin handle will look great. You might review some of Dave Kelly's frame handle work for an idea or two concerning the parts of the handle. A lot of really nice decorative file work can be done using the liners and spacers and yet be very subtle.

Paul

 

[ddd]

Either look good to me, Kevin, even though I prefer the shorter blade.
With a dramatic Damascus pattern blade and cleverly matching handle
material you may probably come up with an amazing piece of knife art...

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[Lorien]

a finial might be a nice touch. Also, it the top quillion is to be clam shelled, I wonder if the ring could echo that in some fashion.

Great thread Kevin, it's great seeing the process- from the VERY beginning! Especially with an invitation for input:thumbup:

 

[stabber]

I think you nailed it Kevin! Nice design:thumbup: Git Er Done!!

 

[JParanee]

Kevin very interesting post and idea.

I have a single ring knife but it is not a bowie it is one of those sabertooths

I like the nine inch version of your designs

 

[haggismonger]

I'll have to reiterate Lorien's observation- I think you should really consider making an equal clamshell on the ring side as well. I think it's a great pattern, and deserves to get off the paper as soon as possible.

 

[dbl-edge]

Kevin,

Since you asked, here goes.

Not a bad idea at all. I have no particular preference for one blade over the other. They are very similar and one doesn't have a greater affect on the overall design than the other.

Here is how I would tweak the details. The single ring guard is the dominant feature of the knife. As you've drawn it, it is top heavy. The upper piece stands out further than the ring. This throws the visual weight of the knife to the top. I think you should increase the diameter of the ring and decrease the height of the clamshell guard so that they stand out the same distance, or the ring stands out a little more.

Would the guard be made by forging the ring around into a circle, or cut from a solid block of material? Either way, carving a clamshell in the ring to match the carving on the other end is a nice idea, but it's not really going to be seen. Now if the ring were carved in such a way that the main element, the clamshell, was at the rear of the ring (where a finger would bump up against it), not at the end, and the rest of the material that finished up the ring continued on around to finish the circle, it would work. However, I've just created an organic element, and a clamshell doesn't fit the theme. Maybe something more scroll like.

I think the coffin shape suits the overall design. I would probably flair it out a bit wider toward the butt end.

As for the make up, what comes to my mind first is a carbon steel blade with hamon. Don Hanson's always come to mind because they are so wild! Second blade material would be damascus, something that is fine and jumbled up everywhere, then laddered along the edge (Fisk's "Wolf Tooth"?). The stainless and ivory you have already chosen are excellent. I like rope file work myself. I'd make those two pins in the scales gold.

I think this will make a great knife!

David

 

[bluejaunte]

David nailed it (big surprise)--first thing that came to mind when I saw your drawing was "Gee, that looks top-heavy".

 

[r connally]

The design looks great. Like the suggestion of the double clam shell vs a ring on the knife you sketched, Kevin.

Understanding your question relates to a single ring knife, I'd personally have a shorter blade. If you do spin it the blade length will need to be proportioned to your body, particularly forearm length. Don't know if you have martial arts weapons experience but balance will be everything on a knife of this design. I wouldn't be able to resist practicing with it. Taping the blade is a trick some butterfly knife folks use when practicing (although you can't close it).

Regardless of your intention to actually spin it or not the knife should be built with a fit for purpose approach (unless your thinking pure "art knife". My thoughts here reflect those I stated in the "Does sharpness matter" thread).

If you proceed please post a video of your spinning abilities when they are as good as this young lady's Can she snap a blade around or what!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSmfK498DjI&NR=1

to all: the attached video is not meant to hijack or detract from Kevin's original serious question to us.

 

[Kyle Royer]

Hi Kevin,

I think your second drawing is very nice. If it was me I would go with a blade like your second drawing but with a 9" blade. Also I would make the guard a little smaller on top and a little bigger on the bottom, or better yet make it a double clam shell with the ring guard as in the picture. I would also put a set of rear bolsters on the handle and make the handle a little larger towards the end. As for damascus I would go with an Explosion, "W" Ladder, "W" Feather or a tight pattern of some kind with lots of shimmer.

Here is my take on your drawing. (please excuse my lack of skill in drawing)

 

[xaman]

Wow, this is an interesting thread Kevin.

I like what the guys have come up with, especially David and Kyle... This is just my personal opinion, as one who doesn't care aesthetically for clamshell guards --- I like David's idea of something organic like scroll. I love Kyle's rear bolster idea as well.

Good luck!

 

[JParanee]

Nice drawing Kyle

Weight and balance are going to be everything with this knife with that said I think alot of the dimensions or at least thickness of the guard and ring are going to be dictated by how the knife balances.

I can twirl a snub nose revolver but I can twirl a single action colt style revolver with a longer barrel better so then again blade length is going to come into play if ya know what I mean

I like the look of the the guard with a bottum extension kinda like an s guard with the ring inside but my only problem with anything that hooks that way is that it could catch an impede my draw. So maybe the plain ring is the way to go.

Have you thought about a nice piece of stag for a handle . Ivory handled knives crack when dropped and that would suck. As you know stag is very durable and when scuffed only shows character.

Just some thoughts I am sure what ever you do it will be very nice.

If I may ask who are you thinking of for the build

 

[dbl-edge]

I think Kyle and I drink the same coffee in the morning! His flaired handle is what I had in mind, and I do like the idea of the rear bolsters. If you went with clamshells on the guard, then replicate it on the butt as he said. If you want with a more organic guard, then carved scroll-like elements on the rear bolsters. It would work well with stainless or sterling silver, and in damascus with selective etching and texturing. If you like engraving, make the butt bolsters and the ferrule flat, and you'd have them and the stainless false tang frame for some nice engraving.

David

 

[betzner]

Hi Kevin-

I wasn't going to contribute to the thread, primarily because I am not really attracted to ringed daggers. I felt it would compromise any suggestions I might make.

But after seeing Kyle's drawings, I figured I would kill two birds with one stone. First, I like Kyle's drawing and design alot. Second, I like Kyle's drawing and design alot.

What a talent.

 

[Gary Mulkey]

I built this one a year ago and though different, it probably will present some similiar construction and I can tell you from experience that if you make the ring guard of 416 rather than damascus (as I did) there will be far fewer headaches.

Gary

 

[Lorien]

+1 on a rear bolster. Likin the idea of echoing the theme from the guard there, too:thumbup:
I keep seeing handle design elements of the ring dagger Bruce Bump made awhile ago, on this design.

 

[Kevin Jones]

WoW, been away all day and I'm very pleased to see all the input. Just what I was looking for. I will be responding to your suggestions.

Kevin, I like the blade profile on the shorter blade. The straighter the clip, the better for me. I think the frame coffin handle will look great. You might review some of Dave Kelly's frame handle work for an idea or two concerning the parts of the handle. A lot of really nice decorative file work can be done using the liners and spacers and yet be very subtle.

Paul

Hi Paul, I like the fighter style blade profile on the smaller knife as well. Will probably use it even if going with the longer blade. In addition to the longer clip, the second piece's tip is also dropped quite a bit. The first blade is more a camp style or utilitarian type profile as is what I've most seen in old photos on this style Bowie. Blade length will play a part in this knife's balance/weight since the handle will have some weight.

a finial might be a nice touch. Also, it the top quillion is to be clam shelled, I wonder if the ring could echo that in some fashion.

Great thread Kevin, it's great seeing the process- from the VERY beginning! Especially with an invitation for input:thumbup:

The maker I have in mind for this piece often utilizes finials for his handles. I left the butt condition off my drawings as it will most likely require a rear bolster condition to allow for ivory lengths. There's so many options for the rear condition I thought it better left for discussion with the maker rather than draw something in this preliminary stage of the knife's creation.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,

Since you asked, here goes.

Not a bad idea at all. I have no particular preference for one blade over the other. They are very similar and one doesn't have a greater affect on the overall design than the other.

Here is how I would tweak the details. The single ring guard is the dominant feature of the knife. As you've drawn it, it is top heavy. The upper piece stands out further than the ring. This throws the visual weight of the knife to the top. I think you should increase the diameter of the ring and decrease the height of the clamshell guard so that they stand out the same distance, or the ring stands out a little more.

Would the guard be made by forging the ring around into a circle, or cut from a solid block of material? Either way, carving a clamshell in the ring to match the carving on the other end is a nice idea, but it's not really going to be seen. Now if the ring were carved in such a way that the main element, the clamshell, was at the rear of the ring (where a finger would bump up against it), not at the end, and the rest of the material that finished up the ring continued on around to finish the circle, it would work. However, I've just created an organic element, and a clamshell doesn't fit the theme. Maybe something more scroll like.

I think the coffin shape suits the overall design. I would probably flair it out a bit wider toward the butt end.

As for the make up, what comes to my mind first is a carbon steel blade with hamon. Don Hanson's always come to mind because they are so wild! Second blade material would be damascus, something that is fine and jumbled up everywhere, then laddered along the edge (Fisk's "Wolf Tooth"?). The stainless and ivory you have already chosen are excellent. I like rope file work myself. I'd make those two pins in the scales gold.

I think this will make a great knife!

David

David, thank you for putting so much thought to this. Just what I had hoped for. You addressed several items of the design that I had struggled with.

The top guard does perhaps extend away from the blade too much making it as you say appear "top heavy". I believe I over compensated as I deplore when shell guards crowd the blade spine. I like a finger width between. I drew it with what appears to be a bit more than that.

I was leaning more towards forging the ring rather than cutting from a block of material. I like your idea of integrating a second clam shell into the ring. Would be interesting.

As far as the taper of the coffin handle, I prefer a more subtle flare as opposed to one that screams coffin at a glance. I hope others will give input on this as well.

I also agree the second blade profile especially screams for carbon steel with a crazy/wild hamom, however I'm a damascus "NUT".
Again thanks David. Big help:thumbup: