Need a little HELP on a Design Please?

[Kevin Jones]

The design looks great. Like the suggestion of the double clam shell vs a ring on the knife you sketched, Kevin.

Understanding your question relates to a single ring knife, I'd personally have a shorter blade. If you do spin it the blade length will need to be proportioned to your body, particularly forearm length. Don't know if you have martial arts weapons experience but balance will be everything on a knife of this design. I wouldn't be able to resist practicing with it. Taping the blade is a trick some butterfly knife folks use when practicing (although you can't close it).

Regardless of your intention to actually spin it or not the knife should be built with a fit for purpose approach (unless your thinking pure "art knife". My thoughts here reflect those I stated in the "Does sharpness matter" thread).

If you proceed please post a video of your spinning abilities when they are as good as this young lady's Can she snap a blade around or what!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSmfK498DjI&NR=1

to all: the attached video is not meant to hijack or detract from Kevin's original serious question to us.

I'm with you Rob, no matter how good looking or "Artsy" a knife, it has to perform to function at a high degree.
And I enjoyed the video you shared. I wouldn't want to get on her bad side.

Nice drawing Kyle

Weight and balance are going to be everything with this knife with that said I think alot of the dimensions or at least thickness of the guard and ring are going to be dictated by how the knife balances.

I can twirl a snub nose revolver but I can twirl a single action colt style revolver with a longer barrel better so then again blade length is going to come into play if ya know what I mean

I like the look of the the guard with a bottum extension kinda like an s guard with the ring inside but my only problem with anything that hooks that way is that it could catch an impede my draw. So maybe the plain ring is the way to go.

Have you thought about a nice piece of stag for a handle . Ivory handled knives crack when dropped and that would suck. As you know stag is very durable and when scuffed only shows character.

Just some thoughts I am sure what ever you do it will be very nice.

If I may ask who are you thinking of for the build

Yep, weight and balance will be important Joe. Interesting juxtaposition of the clamshell and ring, though Kyle's and David's ideas of incorporating the ring with the clamshell looks and sounds good. Would like other opinions on this please. Clamshell top, ring bottom, vs. clamshell top, and clamshell/ring bottom?

Don't worry Joe, if I drop this knife I will be sure to break it's fall with my foot. The foot heals better than the ivory.

I drew the knife with Kyle in mind, however if he would rather not tackle this in lieu of something else than I have an order slot coming up with Larry Fuegen as well.
I assume Kyle is interested thus his drawings, so we will talk soon I hope.

+1 on a rear bolster. Likin the idea of echoing the theme from the guard there, too:thumbup:
I keep seeing handle design elements of the ring dagger Bruce Bump made awhile ago, on this design.

I don't know Lorien, the only thing I see similar in my and/or Kyle's drawing to Bruce's Dagger is the ring.

 

[Lorien]

I'm so glad you posted that photo. I was referring to the carving and pin thing going on on the handle. I don't know the proper terminology to describe it. Cross hatching? Anyway, I hope you know what I mean.

When I first saw your design my immediate thought was that Larry Fuegen would be your go-to guy.

 

[r connally]

I like the double clam & ring better than the upper clam/lower ring.

I like Kyle's rendering except the "air spaces" between the ring and the guard bother me. Having said that, my mind's eye is having trouble envisioning how to fill the void without getting cluncky. Perhaps carving the lower guard so those airspaces are solid? Would a "waterfall" extension flowing off of the back of the top guard balance it? Kyle, if you'd like me to explain better what I mean give me a shout on the cell. Maybe you could draw it.

By the way, I'm really liking that Bruce Bump knife!!!

 

[Bruce Bump]

I like this style of knife. Your pictures all look good but be sure the ring is big enough to feel good. When you grip the knife hard the index finger swells up. I made a couple of them before finding that out the hard way. To get the ring bigger you will need to move it into the handle about 1/4". Make a wooden knife and move the ring around until it fits the hand.

 

[JParanee]

I like this style of knife. Your pictures all look good but be sure the ring is big enough to feel good. When you grip the knife hard the index finger swells up. I made a couple of them before finding that out the hard way. To get the ring bigger you will need to move it into the handle about 1/4". Make a wooden knife and move the ring around until it fits the hand.

Excellent advice Mr Bump. If the ring is to small it will force a certain hand hold position that may not be optimal

 

[koyote]

I'm going to be basic and respond to the earlier part of the thread and give you my take:

1: Add and inch to the handle by reducing the ricasso/tang area forward of the guard.

2: pull the ring INTO the handle area about 3/8 inch. slightly larger diameter

I really like the basics of the drawing, and I love the idea, but I would have to skip the ABS forge pattern on it, for myself.

EDIT: to add that now I read Bruce's post and I feel redundant. +1 on Senior Bump.

 

[trentinistefano]

A pair of ideas from Italy

 

[canineforge]

Looks like a fun project, Kevin. And, lots of good input here. Kyle's drawing gives a better overall look for the knife than your origionals, I think. Something needs to go with the ring for better balance. And, after Bruce and Christof's input on the ring postion, plus several nice examples shown, it seems the ring 'moved into the handle' would be a more comfortable design. Not sure if that was the case in the early ring guard bowies, but it seems like an important design change.

- Joe

 

[Kevin Jones]

I like this style of knife. Your pictures all look good but be sure the ring is big enough to feel good. When you grip the knife hard the index finger swells up. I made a couple of them before finding that out the hard way. To get the ring bigger you will need to move it into the handle about 1/4". Make a wooden knife and move the ring around until it fits the hand.

Very informative post Bruce. Thank you as handle comfort is of utmost importance.
To add to the complexity I have fairly large fingers.

I'm afraid that recessing the ring into the handle may present an aesthetic dilemma. Thought on some designs it actually adds to the flow of the knife (your dagger and the more modern examples posted above), I don't think it be the case for this design. The old or historical examples I have seen have had exterior rings. Wish I had the photos or remembered where I had seen them. "The Antique Bowie Knife Book" perhaps??? If anyone has photos of OLD Ring Guard Bowies please post them or e-mail them to me so I can post them.
I would like to see drawings to demonstrate best way to recess the ring into this handle design while maintaining the classic look.

I'm going to be basic and respond to the earlier part of the thread and give you my take:

1: Add and inch to the handle by reducing the ricasso/tang area forward of the guard.
Not sure I understand? If we reduce the ricasso area by an inch there will be no ricasso area. As it's less than an inch now.
2: pull the ring INTO the handle area about 3/8 inch. slightly larger diameter
Commented above. Again great point.
I really like the basics of the drawing, and I love the idea, but I would have to skip the ABS forge pattern on it, for myself.
Please explain. Again not sure I understand?

EDIT: to add that now I read Bruce's post and I feel redundant. +1 on Senior Bump.

Looks like a fun project, Kevin. And, lots of good input here. Kyle's drawing gives a better overall look for the knife than your origionals, I think. Something needs to go with the ring for better balance. And, after Bruce and Christof's input on the ring postion, plus several nice examples shown, it seems the ring 'moved into the handle' would be a more comfortable design. Not sure if that was the case in the early ring guard bowies, but it seems like an important design change.

- Joe

Hi Joe. Thanks for your input. I'm interested in Kyle's thoughts on the recessing the ring.

Good point on my and Kyle's drawings. They are actually different style drawings. Mine is called an isometric or concept drawings though I cheated a little by only showing the guard area three dimensional. Concept drawings usually show an object in more of a photo view or with depth.
Kyle's is a plan view or shop drawing format which is more used to actually build something and shows an object in one dimension, lists dimensions/descriptions, has multiple drawings showing component detail, and is to scale.
I usually draw knives in plan view as they show more detail, however for this exercise I thought it important to show the depth of the shell guard for clarity, and though I knew we would probably use a rear bolster, I wanted input before putting my ideas on paper.

I'm so glad Kyle went to the trouble of providing additional drawings, ideas and details. He had no advance notice of this thread or that I had him in mind for creating this knife. Just one example of many why he's gained such popularity and respect in just a few years in spite of his young age.

Thanks for all the input. I feel many of us are learning here. I know I am.

I shortened the clamshell guard in the drawing below as a result of several of you guy's feedback. Really think it helps to balance and improves the overall look of the knife.

 

[Kyle Royer]

Hi Mr. Bump,

If you don't mind me asking, what is the Inside diameter of the ring on your Dagger?

Thanks.

 

[Bruce Bump]

Hi Mr. Bump,

If you don't mind me asking, what is the Inside diameter of the ring on your Dagger?

Thanks.

Hi Kyle,
I used a 1 1/8" hole saw and hogged it out a bit more with sanding drums until it felt right.

 

[koyote]

Can't tell without holding, but the design just looks like you'd want to be holding closer to where the ricasso is now. I like to minimize that area, but I realize it is also an aesthetic choice- you can ignore my habit of calling it the ABS Ricasso - that's just my mental name for the style.

An inch total handle length is what I was going for in the suggestions, not necessarily all from the ricasso. I would, personally, want the ring as far in and forward as is possible to do, and the extra inch of handle would be for when I'm not putting my finger through the ring.

The second drawing is looking really nice

 

[Kevin Jones]

Can't tell without holding, but the design just looks like you'd want to be holding closer to where the ricasso is now. I like to minimize that area, but I realize it is also an aesthetic choice- you can ignore my habit of calling it the ABS Ricasso - that's just my mental name for the style.

An inch total handle length is what I was going for in the suggestions, not necessarily all from the ricasso. I would, personally, want the ring as far in and forward as is possible to do, and the extra inch of handle would be for when I'm not putting my finger through the ring.

The second drawing is looking really nice

The Bowie will most likely have a 9 inch blade with 5 inches +/- a little on the final handle design.

 

[blad5]

Hi Kevin-

I wasn't going to contribute to the thread, primarily because I am not really attracted to ringed daggers. I felt it would compromise any suggestions I might make.

But after seeing Kyle's drawings, I figured I would kill two birds with one stone. First, I like Kyle's drawing and design alot. Second, I like Kyle's drawing and design alot.

What a talent.

I couldn't say it better, so I will echo these thoughts!

Paul

 

[Kyle Royer]

Thanks for the info Mr. Bump. I had the ring too small on my original drawing.



So here are some more ideas. Keep in mind that this is what the clam shell will basically look like from the side. These are not 3D drawings.


Here is a picture I found that relates a little. It has the double guard but not clam sells.

Here is a sketch with the ring guard going only a little into the handle.

In this sketch the top handle has the ring guard totally external. In the bottom one the guard is set quite a ways in the handle.

And in the top of this sketch is a kind of sub-hilt ring guard that you could make to have one or two clam shells on the bottom and a clam shell on top. Also you could connect the sub-hilt to the guard or leave it as is without clam shells on the bottom. On the bottom sketch is the ring totally external and with a clam shell coming of the bottom. It also has the small hole between the ring and spacer filled with an extra little triangular piece left on the guard.

 

[Bill Burke]

Kevin, How about a double clam shell guard and then incorparate the ring into the handle frame so that it (the ring) snugs up into the bottom of the guard. this would let you move the ring into the handle a little and slim up the front of the handle so that it seems less rectangular. this would let you you get away with less flair at the back end of the handle. frame ring and spacer could all be forged from one piece of damascus.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Very nice drawings Kyle. I like handle/ring designs "A" & "B".

I also like the short clamshell extension on the lower guard on version "B". It would look good IMO on version "A" as it continues the shell theme, without cluttering the ring area. Considering Bruce's input in regard to recessing the ring into the handle for comfort, "A" may be the best choice, though the external ring looks good on "B" IMO.

Other Opinion's? Suggestions?

Here's the Mammoth Ivory we will use.

Kevin, How about a double clam shell guard and then incorparate the ring into the handle frame so that it (the ring) snugs up into the bottom of the guard. this would let you move the ring into the handle a little and slim up the front of the handle so that it seems less rectangular. this would let you you get away with less flair at the back end of the handle. frame ring and spacer could all be forged from one piece of damascus.

That makes a lot of sense Bill. I'm sure Kyle will ponder on that.

 

[dbl-edge]

Other Opinion's? Suggestions?

Kevin,

From a design standpoint, I do not like A at all. As it has been drawn previously, the choil area and the index placement area of the handle are in line with each other, just as the top is. I've used a philosophy for most of the nearly 3 decades I've been doing that that generally dictates these areas line up, no matter how much guard is cutting across them. Unless you made a radiussed cut in the choil to match the concave cut that the ring makes into the handle, it won't flow as well.

I also don't think a sub hilt is the answer. Totally different look that you've stated you wanted.

I think B is the best one so far. Both the ring and the top piece are balanced visually with their lengths. The ring that runs out from behind the clamshell is good, and having that clamshell ties the ring guard in very well with the top one. It looks like there is a gap between the underside of the lower clamshell and the ring. If it is done right, you don't need that gap. I'd let the ring itself "grow" out from under the clamshell. It's going to take some careful carving and finishing, but it can be done without the gap.

One last thing that I would change if it were mine or if I were making this as a spec knife is to make the butt round. Normally I like the coffin shape with the panels, but with the rear bolsters cut to compliment the clamshells on the guard the rounder look will coordinate better.

These are, of course, MY opinions. Do what YOU want, even if it's brass and pink G-10!

Kyle's drawings are very clear.

So get the mammoth ivory to Smith and let's see the knife!

David

 

[koyote]

I think B might work out better. But, one thing I haven't seen considered-

How about moving the ring forward a bit? make it a bent S guard extended into a ring, but slide the bottom of the S forward some instead of dead straight vertical?

 

[Mike Craddock]

Kevin

This is just a slight mod. to one of Kyles drawings.

Mike