Need advice from knifemakers!

J

James Falor

Joined
Nov 11, 2003
Messages
618
Hey all, I hope I am allowed to post this question here but I really do want some thoughts/input from all of you who actually make these beautiful cutting instruments. I just received a knife from a well-known mastersmith. It is a fighter and it has mammoth ivory scales. I don't want to divulge his name because he is a good guy who's work I really like and because he and I are still in "negotiations" on this matter. Here's the deal--I sent him a 50% down payment (200.00) then, when I inquired as to the price of adding mammoth ivory scales he told me he would look for some at an upcoming show in his area. A few days later he e-mailed me and told me he had found a "beautiful pair of scales" and I sent him the full amount he spent on them--170.00. When the knife was finished I sent him the remainder (220.00) and I got the knife. There is a VERY noticable crack that runs the entire length of the right scale. I asked him if that crack was caused by his pinning the scales or if they were like that when he bought them. He confirmed it was the later, but that he didn't know how large the crack was until he cut them. My question is this: should I be content with this? Should he have told me the scales were cracked and given me the option of using another material? So far he has offered to exchange my knife for another that I was interested in but it's price is 150.00 LESS than I paid and he hasn't offered anything regarding this, only that "this is why I now insist my customers supply their own ivory." He told me, and I belive him, that these scales were the best compromise for the color (which is that gorgeous blue/green with that great "crackled" texture) and the price. Everyone who handles the knife says "hey, did you know the scale is cracked?" after only a second or two holding it. The crack has been stabilized and I know that this is more of a cosmetic issue but am I wrong to want that crack gone? Please, let me know how you all would handle this if you were the smith. I have paid many times more for knives but it is the principle of all this that has me confloundered! Thanks for reading this long-winded story. Best Regards--Jim Falor SEMPER FI ----PHOTOS ADDED BELOW
 
Hi James - I don't know a maker out there who won't give you back your money or make it right in some other way that's acceptable to both of you. You should have been told about the crack before the scales were put on, if it wasn't expected. If he offers to replace the knife, you should get the difference in price back, or you should get a new knife of equal value to what you paid. Short of that, I think a refund would be in order, unless you'd be happy with just a discount.
 
The design is his. Thanks for the feedback. I don't want to get a reputation as a "whiner" I just have never had any maker--let alone a mastersmith--send me something I wasn't MORE than pleased with. The knife is beautiful but, the minute you handle it, you see the crack. I also worry that despite being stabilized the scale will become weak along the crack. I should post a picture. I think I can get a shot of just the scale so as not to give away the smith's identity. I feel like I am being petty but after owning probably 15 knives, all from different mastersmiths, this is the first time I have had a problem. It's like having a beautiful new car but discovering there's a rattle that won't go away while you're driving it ya know? It just starts to bug you the more you think about it. Thanks again for your input. I truly appreciate it. Best regards--Jim SEMPER FI
 
Since it is his design, my PERSONAL opinion matches AcridSaint reagrding a refund. A knifemaker should be willing to refund the money to an unsatisfied customer for a knife of his design and specs made with materials he chose, provided the customer does this in a timely fashion.

Now, that said, it is not at all uncommon for a knifemaker to put a caveat on certain materials, especially ivory, that cosmetic cracks on the interior of the handle material are not considered flaws. Teeth (tusks) crack during the growth process when the animal is alive. They are just there, part of the natural material, and the buyer should be aware that there is a distinct possibility of a surprise on the inside when they request ivory or oosic.

In my own case, rather than continue dealing with an upset customer, I'd just give him his money back and part ways amicably. My recommendation to you for the future is to only buy ivory on finished knives so you get no surprises.
 
Jim, I would send it back, you are not happy with it now, you never will be.

When I send a knife out, I want the customer to be happy with it. If he's not, then I want the knife back, will refund or make another knife.

I also wouldn't have used a piece of ivory that was cracked all the way through, surface cracks are fine. Sounds like this smith doesn't use much ivory and isn't a standard material for him.
 
Does the crack run right through the pins where there may be a little extra pressure on the slab from the pins....
Are the scales wide enough that 2 sets of smaller scales could be made to salvage the ivory for a couple of small slipjoints for example.
There is a certain risk to the maker about natural material. There is also a certain risk to the collector about possible cracking of natural material....
That said, if the ivory was cracked when it was used rather than cracking sometime after being installed, I personally would be responsible, as a maker.
I am always concerned about ivory that I use in Indiana in the summertime (warm and potentially very humid) vs a collector located in say Arizona...(real dry and really warm in the summertime)

I would also like to bet that the maker hasn't offered to trade for the $150.00 less costly knife AND that kind of rebate because it hasn't been brought up...try him/her.
There are "stinkers" in any craft/profession/business, but I'll bet you are not dealing with one! A maker that goes to the effort to become a journeyman or master smith of the ABS or a voting member of the Knifemakers' Guild wants to achieve enough that he/she will do what is right....almost in every case.......
 
I am somewhat perplexed...

Without pictures, I cannot say one way or the other. A lot of mammoth ivory is cracked and at times it adds a lot of character. It is never perfect...

I sure would like to see a picture...

Craig
 
I am not a knife maker.....yet, however business ethics dictate that you paid for something that is expected to be a certain quality and did not receive it. I am sure you feel partly to blame because you requested the handle material but it was not your job to obtain or manufacture the piece. The maker is responsible for making sure the materials he or she selects are of proper quality and if not or if something breaks or turns out in some way faulty they are at fault. I bet that this knife maker is a reasonable person so I am sure you both can come to a mutual agreement.

The fact of the matter is, you have a knife that has a fault and it is something that concerns you..... You are the buyer and therefore supposed to be 100 percent satisfied and clearly you are not.

Good luck, let us know how everything works out.
 
for me I've made knives with cracked Ivory still do and knowing so and was/is OK with it,
but I first tell the customer it is cracked. some collectors and customers don't mind them cracked one in particular I've make a lot of Bowies for calls them character lines others don't see it that way..it doesn't need to be repeated by me but what Mike said is very true putting a caveat on this stuff is common, many times it can crack a long time after the fact.. then now who is it at fault? it's in the nature of the beast really.

you have on the other hand also he put his money into this ivory and it's not going back to the supplier I'm sure, so he is going to be out some money, if he can't reuse it.. I think he's just feeling you out.. and will do you right but
understand, those crackle's are cracks also and Until the maker gets into it he may not have known it was cracked all the way though, or maybe he did? either way it's a tight rope to walk, IMHO it would have been in his best interest to let you know in the first place what can happen..
also
if he gave you the ivory at his cost with no cushion for such things then maybe he is learning a small business lesson from this also being a master smith don't teach you this stuff.. but all in all when it's done and over with it's his name he needs to deal with also..

sheet happens to this stuff.
maybe??? where you have a little insight on this now from all the comments on this thread,
a more experienced buyer may have known to ask such questions before hand too? could the fault lay both ways just a little.. just a thought?
where he has offered a knife valued for less money maybe it would be nice if you two meet some where in the middle and get a new piece of Ivory for the one side on the one you bought ? just an idea.. or maybe he could take it back sell it to a buyer that doesn't mine such character lines and make you another one?
just some points of view here..and not intended to dis anyone..
 
James, There are several things involved here.

First, a mastersmith made custom fighter for $400 is VERY under-priced. I don't know who he is, but there are darn few mastersmiths I know of who will make a simple knife for that.

Second , he offered to pick out some ivory for you, not to supply a finished ivory handled knife. The ivory was,I'm sure, suitable in his opinion, but it was YOUR ivory from the time you said "OK" and sent him the $170. His responsibility was to mount it on the knife - at your risk!!! If he sent the knife flying across the room while buffing and broke the handle, I think he would have replaced the scales at his cost. If they cracked, or revealed cracks, while finishing and grinding the handle - well that is what mammoth does.

Third, as has been stated by the others, Mammoth is cracked by nature (no pun intended). I have cut up whole tusks that had cracks in every set of scales. I sold every set to first rate makers, with no complaints. I personally LIKE the cracks in Mammoth. Most makers do,too.

Last, You are talking to the wrong folks here. You should be having this entire conversation with the maker - IN PRIVATE. If you can't come to an understanding of the above three items, you should ask for a refund. I would be amazed if he didn't immediately give it to you upon return of the knife. I can't think of many custom collectors who wouldn't be glad to buy it from him for the $570 price tag, cracks and all.

Stacy
 
I thank ALL of you for your replies. I have tried to take a couple photos but I am a crappy photographer. Hopefully you can see the crack clearly enough in the first picture at least. That view is looking down on the knife and shows the right scale and the crack runs from the front, dips down along the spine, and curves back out near the back end. The scary thing to me is that it runs the entire way through --end to end, top to bottom. I have never ordered a knife with ivory before so I am certain I didn't ask ANY of the right questions. That said, this maker advertises in his catalog--both hard copy and website--that "if you can afford it, mammoth ivory for your handle is second to none." I do think I got a great deal on a small, "tactical" neck knife (blade about 4 inches) I have paid many times that much for other mastersmith blades. I asked him if he was willing to perhaps split the difference in the price for the ivory and told him I obviously felt he should be paid for his labor in cutting and fitting, etc...Haven't heard back from him yet. I have to go to work but will check back in tonight. I'll let you all know how this ends up and again, thanks very much for all your input on this. Have a great weekend everyone. Best Regards--Jim SEMPER FI
 
I pictured in my head the crack in the Bark..
that's under the bark, are you sure that's a crack and not discoloration?
like there's not discoloration in it anyway haha..
sweet looking handle IMO
if it were me I'd keep it.
 
James,
The crack isn't what I imagined at the start of the thread. Is the crack filled with stabilizer? I imagine that the scales are bolted or pinned in place. If the crack is fill with stabilizer AND it's pinned/bolted then I say it's fine because the ivory shouldn't separate.

Natural materials are a b()&* at times to work, nothing worse to work on a handle and to have flaws exposed. I'll admit I don't work often with ivory but that crack doesn't seem worse than any other that I've seen.

Just my 2 knifemaker's cents.
 
Thanks guys. It is a crack. You can catch the edge of it with your fingernail anywhere you touch it on the top edge. The maker confirms it's a crack that he "didn't know was so large until I cut it." It IS filled with stabilizer and it IS pinned--no cracks anywhere around the pins. I really love the colors too. Like I said, I really don't want to ask for an exchange from a guy that poured his sweat and energy into getting those scales as close to perfect as he could but neither do I want to be handed a 600.00 knife that is going to break apart in a year. Late for work--Back around 6 EST. Thanks fellas. Jim SEMPER FI
 
I have a knife I made for Donna as a test from a piece of Bark Ivory with the same type of crack,It was stabilized and pinned on.I made the knifeabout 5 years ago,it hasnt given any problems.Just a part of using Ivory....

Me personally would work with a customer and make it satisfactory to the customer,either a new knife a trade for a different knife or a refund....I would have said something before attaching it.The piece could have been replaced and used on another knife that the buyer liked the look.

Just my 2 cents worth,you just need to talk to the maker.Give him a call and I bet you will get it all straightened out.

Bruce
 
Not as bad as I thought and a different type of crack, more like a delamination. I could never use a piece of ivory like that but at that price level, I think it's fine. It will most likely never be a problem but if you don't like it......

Hope you get it work out.
 
You can catch the edge of it with your fingernail anywhere you touch it on the top edge.

This is the part that bothers me.... I would expect the crack to have been, at the very least, filled with superglue and sanded out. that way even though you could see the crack, at least you couldn't feel it.
I have myself caused delamination like what is shown and it was from working the ivory too hot.
Matt
 
I lived in alaska for some time and probably handled/dug up about 2 tons of fossilized Ivory, a perfect set of scales would be hard to come by.
That said, try to find a replacement scale and have it changed out, or repair the crack.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top