Need advice from knifemakers!

Sorry I can't see a MasterSmith finishing out a handle with a crack like that in it.
He would'nt have got his MS rating with a handle like that.
TJ
 
Natural materials like ivory and bone are prone to this type cracking later as much as early on and its usually considered to be something out of our control. You can see notations in small print on many sites saying as much about these materials as well as in packaging for production folders. Many of my Case natural handled folders have waivers if you will that talk of this and they are enclosed in the box with the knives.

This unpredictable nature of natural materials is why I like synthetics as my first choice. Its also one of the reasons why I only use what I have in stock that I use myself and ask the people wanting something else outside of my normal in stock materials of Micarta or G10 or G11 to send the material they wish me to use after buying it themselves. I've had them drop shipped to me as well as mailed by the customers.

In any case I'd still work it out to make you happy because if nothing else I'd yank the handles off of a folder I made if they were that bad and put something else on it and sell it to someone else so its not like its a total loss but thats the way I would do it where you are still out the money for the material you didn't like. I would do this because it was your choice and being a natural material I would feel that is in you lap and the risk you take using something like that. If the knife is a safe queen I can personally tell you I've got 35 plus year old knives in my collection that had cracks in the bone and stag handles when I bought them and they are still just as they were back then but they are in display cases not a pocket.

If I paid for the material myself I'd take repsonsibility for that and just saythis is in my lap. I would eat that if it were me, and this is especially true if the reason the scale cracked was from my own doing but chances are we would have discussed the pros and cons of using something like ivory or bone and I'd have said something about not being held responsible for small cracks either when you get it or what develops over time with use.

What I'm thinking is that you picked the material and if it now doesn't suit you due to something within the norm for what is often times seen in that material that you pretty much made your bed, but if you and the maker both can agree its outside the norm I'd say work it out. Thats what I'd do. None of us are perfect but we do try to go out of our way to keep our customers happy.

STR
 
As well, I am very interested in the way this is deal turns out.
Please post what happens.....I am betting 20 to 1 that the maker and you come to an agreement that is good for both of you.......Frankly, I'd be surprised if that isn't what happens......And also, if the other side of the handle can be made into something at least 5/8"x 3"x 2 quantity and made pretty surface-flatish, I'd probably be willing to work with the maker to salvage part of the cost and the ivory.... just a thought and an offer....if most of the dark colors aren't gone..........
 
I want to thank you all again for helping me figure out what to do in this situation. STR, as I said earlier in my post, I have never had a knife made with ancient ivory before, the maker offered to look for some and found what you see. This knife is NOT a safe-queen. It will be an EDC knife. He never told me there was any type of crack, never had any discussion with me about the eccentricities inherent in using something as old as mammoth ivory, only said he'd found a "gourgeous pair of scales." Since he is someone who encourages the use of ivory on his website ("if you can afford it, mammoth ivory for your knife's handle is second to none.") I assumed (and I know that's a newbie mistake) that everything was fine. I sent him the 170.00 extra for the ivory and, when the knife arrived and I e-mailed him about the crack, his only reply was "yeah, I didn't know how big the crack was until I cut into it." I have e-mailed him and asked if he would consider refunding 85.00 of the money I sent for the scales and, as of yet, he hasn't replied. I'm not woried about that since it is the weekend and I have never had any problems with communication with him. I have been careful not to reveal this maker's identity because I agree that this is something that will get worked out eventually. I certainly do appreciate all the input from all you guys who deal with us picky types for a living. It must be a pain in the ---! As I said earlier though, after owning probably 15-20 mastersmith knives, this is the FIRST time I have ever had a complaint. I'm trying not to make a habit out of it.
 
at first I thought the concern was if the so called Crack, which I would rather call a possible separation , I'm having a hard time calling Ivory laminated in the first place so it's what I would call it rather than a Crack, if I have to pick one or the other to call it.. with that said

is it more of a concern to you in the looks of it where as when you show it to people that they call it cracked? as said some knife nuts like it or do not like it that way.. .

as I said I've seen Ivory discolored just under the bark
and the above the 2nd cut. to me it's not unsightly other than it's not the same on the other scale that is the only slight imbalance I can pick out from it's look.

but that is for my eyes to enjoy or not..
the guys web sites obviously speaks his love for the material and not the thoughts of others,

this is a mere difference of Opinion on the subject and Material.
should he have told you it was cracked,, ?? personally I wouldn't call it cracked but that's just me
I'd call it a now stabilized separation that comes from more of a, lets say , it's seen more of a hostile environment than some other ivories have seen

it has more degrading then you'd care to see? but maybe not in the masters eyes ?
case and point I have some Mammoth jaw bone that has micro cracks all thought it and a lot of it and I think it adds a ton of character to it rather than just being brown in color, but that is my Option.. and could be of many others out there..

ultimately you have to live with what you buy and should be happy with it.
where as who you buy from can have different Ideas than you do about what is nice and pleasant to look at, I see it as a matter of not being on the same page with each other.

the worse thing here is he found you some scales and you paid for them
he didn't see the so called crack until he cut them, at this time there was no returning them , who do the scales belong to now??.. you or the maker?

I'm wondering? would it have better for him to say,

I can't finish the knife for you until I ask you this question..
the Ivory I received for you with your permission and your money,, is separated I'm sorry but there was no way I would have known this until I cut into it and of course once it's been cut the suppler will not give a refund for it..because it's what happens with 10,000 year old Ivory and he doesn't know what it's like underneath either..please go to the suppliers site www. XXXX and see his polices.
and then he asks you, do you want to use it or do you want to buy another set? if you do not use it I'll send it to you with the knife when I send the knife to you once finished.

the only thing I can see wrong with the picture is a statement or not to what happens to this stuff and the consequences of old Ivory...

you said he's not gotten back to you,, by chance did he ever tell you after you decided to use old Ivory on the knife that when you paid for it he was just the middle man for the sale of it and the responsibility was in thge end yours just the same as if you bought it and sent it to him ?
I'm just wondering? you may not have known of any problems in it either if you bought them yourself.

I'm just adding in things here just for thought as you asked for makers opinions and thoughts.. I hope it works out OK for you..
 
:DThanks Mr. Gray. I guess it is indeed the fact that all these folks look at my knife and say "wow! It's cracked!" that upsets me however, that isn't the whole problem. I feel like it throws the look of the knife out of balance somehow. The maker DID know it was cracked when he bought it--he told me as much. He said he didn't know the EXTENT of the flaw until he cut into it. As to your question about the maker telling me of the crack, yes it probably would have made a difference to me. In this digital age I feel like it would have been pretty easy to fire me off a picture and let me decide from that. In any case, I told him in my last e-mail that I certainly respect his work and that I didn't want to do anything to damage our "relationship." I told him that I truly wanted to reach an agreement we BOTH were happy with. If, in the end, I end up taking a knife that sells for 150.00 less than the one I paid for, then so be it. I guess I feel like I am trying to be as reasonable a buyer as I can be however, I am certainly not wealthy, and I'm certain my kids could find something to do with that 85 dollars! :D
 
As a knife maker I think I would bite the bullet on this one. Buying natural materials is always a gamble, one i think the maker should assume. If there was a major flaw in the material and he knew it before shaping I think maybe he should have looked for a different set. He may have been able to use this set on a much smaller knife, slipjoint or? If you receive the knife with no flaws and after a time period natural scales crack, shift, shrink etc, thats the gamble of the knife buyer.


As a buyer of the knife, I know it would always be in the back of my mind, that the flaw was there and made the knife look unbalanced. With everyone that picked it up telling you that one scale was cracked. I feel for you and your situation.

Ken

ps, If he were to refund the $85 or rescale with a set you both agree to , would that not give this maker tons of good will between you and everyone you talk to ? I think it would, something to chew on
 
James Falor said:
:DThanks Mr. Gray. I guess it is indeed the fact that all these folks look at my knife and say "wow! It's cracked!" that upsets me however, that isn't the whole problem. I feel like it throws the look of the knife out of balance somehow. The maker DID know it was cracked when he bought it--he told me as much. He said he didn't know the EXTENT of the flaw until he cut into it. As to your question about the maker telling me of the crack, yes it probably would have made a difference to me. In this digital age I feel like it would have been pretty easy to fire me off a picture and let me decide from that. In any case, I told him in my last e-mail that I certainly respect his work and that I didn't want to do anything to damage our "relationship." I told him that I truly wanted to reach an agreement we BOTH were happy with. If, in the end, I end up taking a knife that sells for 150.00 less than the one I paid for, then so be it. I guess I feel like I am trying to be as reasonable a buyer as I can be however, I am certainly not wealthy, and I'm certain my kids could find something to do with that 85 dollars! :D
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you are 100 % now adays a picture can go out pretty fast..
albeit not every one knows how still :(:)
I wish you well on this one.. but it will at the least be a learning tool , I'm glad you brought this here..and kept the makers name low key for now.. at least.. :thumbup:
I think I would bite the bullet on this one. Buying natural materials is always a gamble, one i think the maker should assume. If there was a major flaw in the material and he knew it before shaping I think maybe he should have looked for a different set.
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ken I agree also, but the customer, some of them, as we know would like it this way, after all it's nature that did this to it.. it's not the way it was when it was a live for sure,, with the blues and greens the top cracks :D

I'm willing to bet that this master isn't well hung with money or he would have bought the Ivory where he already had a deposit on the knife..
how many Master makers can just go ahead orderr and spend $175.00 just to see if it will work or not and then let it set untill he can use it Cracked :eek: it could be a money isue on his part too who knows :confused::) just more input..:o
 
With natural materials there is always risk involved. I bet the maker assumed the customer knew what those risks were as most newbies don't ask for it. If it were my knife I wouldn't ask for a refund but I would ask the maker to seal the handle and refinish it. I wouldn't really say either party is playing the part of a "bad guy" here. It really is just the nature of those materials :( I would think a sealing job would be a quick and easy fix. Once it is sealed , it won't have that "look at me" affect :)
 
I have read this whole thing and would like to make a few observations. First nice to keep the makers name out of it. Never slammed the guy. I like Dans point about the money issue for the maker. I bet most makers, even MS makers are on a tight budget. It is more a labor of love than money. Seeing a thread like this gives me cause to remember to inform buyers of the possibility of natural problems with natural materials. I also keep thinking if there was a similar line in the other scale and both were filled and sanded smooth everything would be good. I would never use a natural handled knife as an EDC without accepting that the handle might be harmed. The more delicate the handle the more the risk. Mammoth ivory and tooth being pretty delicate, I hope this all works out and everyone comes away happy.

The thing about him getting the scales for you kind of reminds me of why I don't like to look at a or buy used cars for anyone. If a friend says will you look at a car for me and tell me what you think I always try to get out of it or be non commital. If I say it looks ok and something turns up bad later (even years later) your often expected to help make it right even though you had no way to tell what was going to happen. Not saying it is the same just brings that experience to mind.
 
Well, thanks again guys. I've just been told to go hang, essentially, by the maker. He says that even giving me the 150.00 LESS expensive knife is a "strech for me." Also told me he was "removing me from his customer list." Wow, I feel HORRIBLE about that. I think I tried to be as pleasant as possible but I don't think this maker has money problems--I think he's got EGO problems. You all probably would keel over if you knew who it was. Oh well, he can have the money. I will chalk it up to experience. Thanks again. Jim SEMPER FI
 
James Falor said:
Well, thanks again guys. I've just been told to go hang, essentially, by the maker. He says that even giving me the 150.00 LESS expensive knife is a "strech for me." Also told me he was "removing me from his customer list." Wow, I feel HORRIBLE about that. I think I tried to be as pleasant as possible but I don't think this maker has money problems--I think he's got EGO problems. You all probably would keel over if you knew who it was. Oh well, he can have the money. I will chalk it up to experience. Thanks again. Jim SEMPER FI
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ouch sorry to hear that Jim..
I wonder if he gets on these boards?
I for one would like to see what his web site says in it's entirety..
Jim would you send me his web link by email?
 
The crack is not what I expected either. I would not expect the customer to be satisfied with it. Also I would not have used it in the first place. Money is not the object here. I would have him replace the scale from the same tusk or find another set of scales. You got this knife at a killer low price possibly because the ivory is flawed.
 
By the way, reading the exact wording on the website, I'm now particularly surprised that he wasn't helpful.
 
Bruce Bump said:
The crack is not what I expected either. I would not expect the customer to be satisfied with it. Also I would not have used it in the first place. Money is not the object here. I would have him replace the scale from the same tusk or find another set of scales. You got this knife at a killer low price possibly because the ivory is flawed.
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Bruce going back some you'll see that the price of knife was set before the ivory was priced, the ivory was added later as an after thought in the place of wood.. and paid for by Jim in full and in advance seperatly of the knife deposit, if I got this right.. jim did he talk you in to the ivory buy or did you ask him to add the ivory on your own acord ?
 
Hey Dan, I found his paper catalog today. What got me was his statement listed as #1 under his 8-part "info" on his neck knives. Quote: "Mammoth for a handle on my hand forged neck knives takes second place to none. No one regrets such a decision if they can afford it." (except in my case) I thought this was interesting too, under "customer service" "While I'm glad to hear you received the knives in good shape, I am truly sorry to hear that your friend is not satisfied with his knife. Let me offer to replace it for him with a drop-point, and additionally I will pay for the shipping both ways."......As each blade is handmade, there can be quite a variety even within the similar models. Making these choices in the absence of the customer is a daunting task, one that I don't treat lightly. I guess I have been lucky so far in that 99% of my customers have been satisfied with my judgment, and believe that I always try to send only the knives which exemplify my best efforts. Again, after waiting so patiently, I am sorry that the knives were not to your satisfaction." I have sent every payment (3) to this guy Priority mail within 24 hours of his notifying me. I even included 10 dollars extra to help with the shipping costs! I have now returned the above knife insured, USPS Priority. I have been nothing but courteous and respectful in my communications with him. When, after he made it clear that he wasn't interested in OFFERING any kind of compromise, I suggest one: maybe we can split the cost of the ivory 85 apiece? For this I am told that I am going to be "removed from my customer list." and that "I assumed you knew what you were doing when you asked me to purchase the ivory for you." I only can hope he will actually SEND me the cheaper knife so I am not left holding air for 590.00. The saga cotinues...Jim SEMPER FI
 
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