Need advice on hanging this lugged Red Warrior

[Twindog]

I’m trying to hang this Kelly Works Red Warrior, but it’s not going well. The lugs are so narrow and tapered inward at the tips that they need to dig in deeply to the haft for the head to seat.


If I rasp/sand the haft enough to accommodate the tabs, the head will be loose everywhere else. The only thing I can think of is to chisel out bays on each side of the haft for the lugs to slide into (where you see the pencil marks).


The inside of the tips of the lugs measure 0.0657 inches. The base of the lugs measure 0.715 inches. Maybe the lugs got bent inward, but it's difficult to tell.


The kerfed haft is tapered enough so that it slides in easily from the top, hanging up only when it hits the tips of the lugs.


Before I start to chisel deep lug bays into the haft, I thought I’d ask for some advice. I’ve never hung a head with lugs before.

 

[phantomknives]

maybe try a router

 

[Woodcraft]

You will either have to cut them in or slim the haft. You look to be pretty close, I would just cut them in.

 

[Twindog]

OK, thank you. I'd just never heard of people having to cut bays into the haft for the lugs. Figured I must be missing something -- which is always a safe bet.

 

[phantomknives]

i'v never heard it either, just seems like a good idea

 

[Woodcraft]

OK, thank you. I'd just never heard of people having to cut bays into the haft for the lugs. Figured I must be missing something -- which is always a safe bet.

The Kelly perfect handles (originals) have them cut in. I have been trying to just slim the haft lately. But I have done it both ways. If you look in the what did you hang today thread you can see examples of it done both ways. The last plumb I did was "crimped" a bit. I thinned the shaft and you can see if you look closely while it looks like the ears slid over the haft, one of them is actually bit in. Personally if you have a lot of spaces and slip in the top of the eye I use a softwood wedge. A fat one and drive it home. If it is a great fit I use a slim hardwood wedge.

 

[Woodcraft]

A plumb 4lber I cut the ears in. And a council from the factory with just the handle under the ears.



A Kelly perfect with the original handle and ears cut in. And a plumb with a handle thinned ears "over".

 

[Woodcraft]

A close-up of the four pounder to show the ears are indeed cut in. (Crappy photography night)

 

[Twindog]

Well I'm starting to cut the bays in about an inch, which means removing a lot of wood from the shoulders. The thing is that the points are so crimped that if they're tight against the haft, the base of the lugs will be loose. Seems like a good way to have the head come loose.

The inside of the tips had some "nubs" on them. I filed them off because otherwise I was going to have to pound a long, eighth-inch deep grooves down both sides of the haft.

I think this hang is going to be a learning experience.

 

[Twindog]

Thanks for those photos.

 

[jake pogg]

The inside of the tips of the lugs measure 0.0657 inches. The base of the lugs measure 0.715 inches. Maybe the lugs got bent inward, but it's difficult to tell.

If the above is an accurate measurement(other than did you mean 0.657" vs 0.0657"?),the lugs then were surely bent in.
Straighten them to make a continuing,fair line down the inside of each side of the eye.
(you'll still probably need to cut them in,but not to a Negative space,as relates to the other section measurements of inside of eye.

 

[Twindog]

If the above is an accurate measurement(other than did you mean 0.657" vs 0.0657"?),the lugs then were surely bent in.
Straighten them to make a continuing,fair line down the inside of each side of the eye.
(you'll still probably need to cut them in,but not to a Negative space,as relates to the other section measurements of inside of eye.

Sorry, added a zero. The tips are 0.657 inches on the inside.

I'm having to cut into the shoulder about a quarter inch (sum of thins on both sides).

 

[quinton]

Filing a slight bevel on the inside tips of the lugs helps to keep them from digging in.

 

[Twindog]

Well, it didn’t turn out that well. It’s difficult to cut those bays into the haft because you have to cut them precisely enough so both sides settle evenly into their spaces.

And you have to leave just enough width to the haft shoulders so the head jams on hard. All that was beyond my ability, short of making this a weeklong project.


A lot of wood had to be removed. This was my second extension of the bays.

Here’s the bay with the lug approaching. You can see how deep that cut had to be.

Here it is fully set. The gap is ragged, and much of the resistance to further seating came from pressure against just a few spots, but at this point the head was stuck on hard.

The wedge went in tight, but it should have been longer. It could have gone in more. I ran out of wedge. I poured a lot of Swel-Lock into the kerf and on the wedge first — but it turned out that I grabbed the wrong bottle and poured Axe-Guard in instead (metal protectant). Either a senior moment, or I was in a hurry. At least the wedge won’t rust.

Otherwise, not a bad axe. I’ll try soaking it in BLO later. Maybe that will help.

It would be nice if one of you experienced hands would put together a tutorial on how to deal with these lugs.

 

[jake pogg]

Quinton is absolutely right about a slight bevel(just like any other inside edge really ought to be chamfered).

The key word here,though,is "slight"....1/4" is decidedly more than that...(in my book...).

Ironically,someone has fairly recently gifted me with that very critter,Red Warrior...He tried hafting it,(before burning out on the whole axe-collecting gig),and looks like the lugs is one of the spots that have given him particular grief,as they seem to be also compressed,more than looks right(the head still has that half-aborted haft in it,so can't measure it at this moment).
Again,if you have an anvil horn or similar handy,i'd spread them out to form a gentle flare the Other way,to more/less match the swell....

 

[Woodcraft]

Well, it didn’t turn out that well. It’s difficult to cut those bays into the haft because you have to cut them precisely enough so both sides settle evenly into their spaces.

And you have to leave just enough width to the haft shoulders so the head jams on hard. All that was beyond my ability, short of making this a weeklong project.


A lot of wood had to be removed. This was my second extension of the bays.

Here’s the bay with the lug approaching. You can see how deep that cut had to be.

Here it is fully set. The gap is ragged, and much of the resistance to further seating came from pressure against just a few spots, but at this point the head was stuck on hard.

The wedge went in tight, but it should have been longer. It could have gone in more. I ran out of wedge. I poured a lot of Swel-Lock into the kerf and on the wedge first — but it turned out that I grabbed the wrong bottle and poured Axe-Guard in instead (metal protectant). Either a senior moment, or I was in a hurry. At least the wedge won’t rust.

Otherwise, not a bad axe. I’ll try soaking it in BLO later. Maybe that will help.

It would be nice if one of you experienced hands would put together a tutorial on how to deal with these lugs.

You do ears the same way you get the handle to fill the eye completely. SLOWLY. You work the head on/ take it off making marks and removing material. Put the head back on, repeat. I would have had the head off and on several times between your first and second extension. Pounding so the head works it's way down a little each time and removing material so the fit is even. On a positive note it's an ax. If it is hung tight use it.

 

[Twindog]

Quinton is absolutely right about a slight bevel(just like any other inside edge really ought to be chamfered).

The key word here,though,is "slight"....1/4" is decidedly more than that...(in my book...).

Ironically,someone has fairly recently gifted me with that very critter,Red Warrior...He tried hafting it,(before burning out on the whole axe-collecting gig),and looks like the lugs is one of the spots that have given him particular grief,as they seem to be also compressed,more than looks right(the head still has that half-aborted haft in it,so can't measure it at this moment).
Again,if you have an anvil horn or similar handy,i'd spread them out to form a gentle flare the Other way,to more/less match the swell....

I did chamfer the lugs a bit, but the real problem was the crimping. Your idea of using an anvil horn is good, but I don't have one.

Love to hear how you solve the hanging of your Red Warrior.

 

[Agent_H]

Those lugs totally make a Jersey. They are classic but to hang them you pay into it as work.

One option is taking the whole handle thin all the way and not fight it:

I think cutting-in looks good and lets you keep a little more meat on the handle if you want. Same head, two handles:

I think about it like this: The lugs protrude below a straight line in a way.

A Jersey and a handle:

Lay the head on the handle where you think ideal (I leave a lot of the tongue over the over the eye).

Mark where you want the lugs to rest.

Make a line from front to back.

I try to treat everything from that line to the end of the tongue like an axe without lugs – fit it to be straight and in-line with the handle - everything above that line needs to be thinned down to the same size as the end that is just big enough to slip into the eye – like a normal axe.

After you have the tongue fitted above the line you can take a lot of material from the recesses to match the tongue above it using a file:

My problem is what to do with the area that is shaded in. The straight files don’t quit get in there. I have tried using chisels, curved rasps, and knives but I always struggle with cutting-in to the points.

This is an option if you have steady hand lol.

*I typed this up just thinking through how the Jersey is different from an axe without lugs and posted without seeing your last entry with your pictures.


Twindog, I think that is a really nice looking package in that axe. If it is wedged tight then it is a fine head on a shapely handle.
Having the head fit just shy of a ledge takes patience and is sound for the first life on a handle. You can always use it and change the shoulder at your leisure.

Very nice

 

[Twindog]

You do ears the same way you get the handle to fill the eye completely. SLOWLY. You work the head on/ take it off making marks and removing material. Put the head back on, repeat. I would have had the head off and on several times between your first and second extension. Pounding so the head works it's way down a little each time and removing material so the fit is even. On a positive note it's an ax. If it is hung tight use it.

I did go too fast, but I remounted the head about 8 times. Poor skills certainly were an issue. Once those bays got off by just a bit, the whole hang went sideways. I'll clean it up, soak it and see how it holds up to a serious splitting session. I drove a couple small copper nails through the exposed haft and into the wedge, leaving them just proud enough to block movement of the head. I'm guessing it will be good. Makes me appreciate the fine hangs I see people doing here.

 

[jake pogg]

Twindog,your hang looks good,and solid,and hopefully it serves you well and long.

If not,and you'll find yourself re-hanging it,than i'd certainly look for a way to open those lugs...(anything that would serve as a horn/bick/mandrel;some box-stores that rent tools throw away/sell off cheap the breaker-bits that wear past the point;i've bought them for $5 before).

I'll certainly post the process when i get around to hanging this Red Warrior,but it'll have to be a while...
Frankly,i've forged more axes with lugs than i re-hung the vintage ones.And a 1/4" shy of the eye width seems just plain wrong,i've opened them too much before,by not paying attention,but to close them narrower than the eye...well...Possibly,there's something that we don't know here.