Need dog advice

[Thomason]

Some people seem to have trouble understanding that pit bulls don't necessarily attack children/people more often than do other breeds, but once in attack mode, they do much greater harm than the other breeds.

That's a fact.

No one wants to see his 3 yr old toddler get a nip from a bitchy cocker spaniel or a deep bite from a Dalmation-- but a mangling from a pit bull is entirely different.

Excellent point. In my opinion this is the crux of the whole pit bull issue.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Yes, this is a good point he brings up, I tend to agree with him on this. What about the Komondor breed of dogs?

 

[m1marty]

I agree with you, the inaccuracy of the media is one of the reasons I've changed my views on pitbulls. Do you have any good stories about pit bulls to counterbalance the horror tales?

BTW, what in hell is a Corvair? Should I be scared?

LOL....yeah, the Corvair was a car Chevy built in the 60's. Ralph Nader wrote a book with pages devoted to how the Corvair was the most unsafe car in the world. Mass hysteria ensued.....total BS, but because it was in print and on the TV many people took this to heart. After all, the TV and newspaper doesn't lie, right?

. If you are at all interested in the breed, there are many good online sites that tell the story. Remember, these dogs were culled for being people aggressive up untill not too long ago(it still happens in some places) This is one of the most beautiful dogs I have ever seen.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

I love dogs, it's a shame that distinct breeds are labeled as "demon breeds" as I saw doing a Google search for pit bulls. Thanks for the info, Marty, I've found that your pits do some of the same exact things my retrievers and mutts have done over the years.

 

[bob bowie]

Excellent point. In my opinion this is the crux of the whole pit bull issue.

Yes, but does anyone have any scientific evidence that Pit Bulls cause inherently more damage per attack than other large breeds(GSD's, Rottweiler, etc...). I couldn't find any.....

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Yes, but does anyone have any scientific evidence that Pit Bulls cause inherently more damage per attack than other large breeds(GSD's, Rottweiler, etc...). I couldn't find any.....

Again, I guess it could be mass hysteria. Most of the breeds I've been interested in have been German sheperds, retrievers and Jack Russells, ergo, most of the books I've read have been on those breeds.

 

[Bob W]

The hysteria has a basis in reality, although not a scientifically statistical reality. Pit Bulls here account for more vicious dog calls to animal control than any other breed, perhaps more than all other breeds combined (1,700 Pit Bull calls in the last two years, in a town of only 12,000 people). One factor, the disgusting and cruel local tradition of leaving dogs chained in the yard for long periods. Any dog can (will) become anti-social, destructive, and dangerous when not allowed to socialize fully with people and other dogs. Another possible factor, there seem to be more pitbulls here than other breeds.

It varies by region though. The Albuqueque Animal Control has a worse problem with Rottweilers. And in Farmington the most common vicious dogs are, get this, Lab mixes.

American Pti Bull Terriers are sometimes beautiful, gentle, and loving. But it's my feeling that under the same circumstances Pit Bulls are more likely to maul, vs. other dogs that might only nip, bite-and-release, or growl. No, I can't back that up with stats.

Here are APBT articles with dog bite statistics, and how the stats are unreliable and misleading:
http://pitbulls.jentown.com/dogattacks.htm
http://s96980453.onlinehome.us/statistics.htm

-Bob

 

[jiminy]

Ralph Nader wrote a book with pages devoted to how the Corvair was the most unsafe car in the world. Mass hysteria ensued.....total BS, but because it was in print and on the TV many people took this to heart. After all, the TV and newspaper doesn't lie, right?

We had one. They were 'unsafe' ...as they only had 1/2 of a regular car chassis frame. Cool little car though.
Let's face it ...most small cars are 'unsafe' to be in if you get hit by a much large/heavier vehicle, (as most vehicles were when the Corvair was on the road.) And the half-frame of the Corvair made it even worse to be in when up against the tanks on the road back then.

As for the pit bulls... The other poster hit it right on the head. Other dogs bite and generally let go. Pit bull type breeds don't. They hang on for dear life, shake and maul their prey, and won't let go for anything. And their propensity for going for the head area of their prey is also well known, and also part of the problem. If a little kid starts screaming, and the pit bull goes off ...chances are good it's going for a lock on the childs head ...a lock that you won't be able to get it to release short of beating the dog with a club.
Now, that's a cute picture you've got there ...but I shudder to think what that dog could do to that child should the wrong circumstances present themselves. Do you see how nicely that childs head fits into that dog's mouth? Not good.
It's like putting a young child in a car and not strapping them in. They may be fine ...nothing may ever happen to them. But don't confuse luck with safety.

 

[A Dogs Best Friend]

Pit Bulls here account for more vicious dog calls to animal control than any other breed, perhaps more than all other breeds combined (1,700 Pit Bull calls in the last two years, in a town of only 12,000 people). One factor, the disgusting and cruel local tradition of leaving dogs chained in the yard for long periods. Any dog can (will) become anti-social, destructive, and dangerous when not allowed to socialize fully with people and other dogs. Another possible factor, there seem to be more pitbulls here than other breeds.
-Bob

Another possibility is that maybe more Pits are trained/conditioned to be hostile in your area than any other breed. I don't know why that might be a possibility, or even if it is a possibility, but many factors could contribute to the stats other than a particular breeds assumed inherent visciousness. There is always the "human factor" to consider when discussing the behavioral traits of any dog breed in question. As all domesticated dogs have been basically controlled by human beings for up to 30-40,000 years, which is the frame of time that Anthropologists and Paleontologists assume the "link up" between Canids and Human Beings and the domestication process began.

In the case of Pitbulls, the human factor has recently been one, basically, of stupidity and foolishness in regards to the way Pitbulls have been trained and used by people. When small minded people found that Pitbulls were tough looking dogs and had traits of tenacity and physical strength they took it upon themselves to pervert and modify what is inherently a good animal into one more suited for their antisocial purposes.

Note that it is not the dogs themselves who are at fault. It is people. Just like guns don't shoot people all by themselves, Pitbulls don't become aggressive antisocial animals all by themselves. It takes stupid people, which are unfortunately always in abundance to make mean dogs, barring any physiological condition like disease or sickness as a contributing factor. Pitbulls, per se are not mean, nasty dogs. But they can be turned into mean, nasty dogs by ill intentioned people. If there were no Pitbull breed, I'm certain that some idiots somewhere would have made some other breed the Pitbull equivalent. It is a fact of life that people often make bad decisions. As a matter of fact, if you give me enough of a population of my normally sweet natured, lovable Australian Shepherds and some time, I could do a lot of selective breeding and condition the most "promising" subjects to become nasty, antisocial "demons." They would snarl ,bite, attack with little provocation, etc. and be feared by the whole neighborhood. God forbid that scenario to come to pass. I just use it as an illustration of my point.

I just hate to see a whole breed of dog maligned and despised because of the actions of a few fools and the sensationalism of the media. No matter what problem we are talking about, the reason for the problem is almost always human behavior. As is the case with Pitbulls.

 

[jiminy]

The Pit bull, friend or killer? Is the Pit bull a fine animal, as its admirers claim, or is it a vicious dog, unfit for society?

America has a four-legged problem called the American pit bull terrier. And the pit bull, its ''ridiculously amiable disposition' ' notwithstanding, has a two-legged problem called Man. These two species are not new to each other. They have intermingled for some 200 years, and some say their common history goes back as far as the Romans. But something has happened to the pit bull in the last decade that says as much about the nature of American society as it does about the nature of this aggressive animal. Far from being an aberration, the American pit bull terrier has become a reflection of ourselves that no one cares very much to see. ''They're athletes. They're wrestlers. They're dead game,'' says Captain Arthur Haggerty, a dog breeder and trainer in New York City who owns five pit bull terriers and has trained hundreds of others. ''They will literally fight till they're dead. If you found that quality in a boxer or a football player, you'd say it was admirable. Will to win. That's what a pit bull has.'' Others call it a ''will to kill.''

''But the hysteria, or concern, is understandable. To the untrained eye -- or even to the trained one, in many instances -- it is virtually impossible to tell a docile pit bull from a mean one. None of them looks like a wimp, and a friendly pit bull jumping up to lick you to death has an eerie resemblance to a pit bull jumping up to rip out your throat. Your best bet is to pass a fast judgment on its owner. Pit bulls do not usually growl before attacking; they seldom bark. The hair on their backs does not stand on end when they are enraged. These are not dogs given to threatening displays.


Read the entire article here:
http://www.dogexpert.com/Popular Press/Pitbullfriend.html

 

[A Dogs Best Friend]

. They were 'unsafe' ...as they only had 1/2 of a regular car chassis frame. Cool little car though.

As for the pit bulls... The other poster hit it right on the head. Other dogs bite and generally let go. Pit bull type breeds don't. They hang on for dear life, shake and maul their prey, and won't let go for anything. And their propensity for going for the head area of their prey is also well known, and also part of the problem.
It's like putting a young child in a car and not strapping them in. They may be fine ...nothing may ever happen to them. But don't confuse luck with safety.

I would like to respectfully take exception to a couple of your points, here. As far as Corvairs are concerned, it would be more appropriate to say that perhaps they are not AS safe, or are less safe than other, larger cars. But, not necessarily that they are UNsafe cars. Taking your logic to it's ultimate conclusion, we would all be better off driving Hummers than economy cars or midsize cars, because they would take an impact better.

As for Pitbulls, because you (reasonably?) assume they could do more damage than another dog, you assume them to be more inherently dangerous than other dogs. This is akin to the logic of people who would assume you to be more dangerous because you had a large Cold Steel Voyager in your pocket rather than a Chris Reeve Mnandi. Sure you could hurt someone more with the Voyager, providing they were unarmed, etc., but it does not necessarily follow that you will do them damage. Many politicians would disarm the population with this kind of logic. And it is unfair to malign a breed of dog because they are genetically more "gifted" with strength and tenacity than other dogs. It would be disposition and conditioning that would be more appropriate indicators of potential visciousness than other physical factors. Just my two pennies.

 

[bob bowie]

NATIONAL CANINE RESEARCH FOUNDATION
Address:http://ncrf2004.tripod.com/index.html .

The above site is very decent at documenting dog bite statistics here and in Canada for an extended period. While APBT certainly does show up, many other breeds exceed or are on par with it in terms of biting.

 

[m1marty]

It's like putting a young child in a car and not strapping them in. They may be fine ...nothing may ever happen to them. But don't confuse luck with safety.

LOL...so now I'm lucky my dogs don't "maul" my kids? Please.....
Have you ever owned one of these dogs? I have. I have had right at 20 of them in the last few years. As an owner I have been around these dogs for about 7 years now. So unless you have dealt with one for a long period of time, NOT *Well, I read this in the paprer, this lady got bit in Anytown USA, my friends cousin had a real mean one" please keep the speculation to yourself. You folks remind me of the anti-gun pudnits who scream that an AK-47 is capable of causing more death than a small tactical nuke with only 4 rounds.
As I said earlier, these dogs were NEVER INTENDED TO BE "PEOPLE" AGGRESSIVE!! DOGS THAT DISPLAYED THIS TRAIT WERE AND STILL SHOULD BE CULLED!!!
And again, please feel free to continue the mass hysterical screaming and arm waving over something you know nothing about.
Now it's back to the JD single barrel. And yes, I know this too can cause horrible damage to my kids.
*edit* Lay a hand on my kids and we'll see how that luck/safety thing works for you when it comes to the dogs.

 

[A Dogs Best Friend]

I'm out. I wish Gigante and his family the very best with their soon to be new companion/family member. Dogs are wonderful creatures. Enjoy!

 

[sleepy]

When I was 8 years old the family 3 houses down had a female pitbull that was a family pet played with the children and "wouldn't hurt a fly". It got out one day and tried to attack me thankfully my basset hound didnt think i should be a chew toy for the pitbull. After about five minutes of them fighting the pitbull's owner shows up and cant get his dog under control. By this time the pitbull has got ahold of my dog and "locked on". Our nieghboor across the alley had to beat the pitbull unconscious with a baseball bat to get it off my dog. This was back in the 80's police and animal control did nothing because the guy calimed the dog was harmless and it had to be my fault it attacked. So we took them to court by this time the same "harmless" dog had attacked the owner so they ordered the dog put down and he had to pay for my dogs vet bill's. This same guy gets another pitbull witch a couple of years later attacked one of his kids. There are several other instances of family pet pitbulls attacking that i know about here locally. To this day if i see a pitbull running loose and it so much as looks in my direction i feel personally obligated to kill it. My 2 cents on the pitbull issue.

 

[Ashes]

The Pit bull, friend or killer? Is the Pit bull a fine animal, as its admirers claim, or is it a vicious dog, unfit for society?

America has a four-legged problem called the American pit bull terrier. And the pit bull, its ''ridiculously amiable disposition' ' notwithstanding, has a two-legged problem called Man. These two species are not new to each other. They have intermingled for some 200 years, and some say their common history goes back as far as the Romans. But something has happened to the pit bull in the last decade that says as much about the nature of American society as it does about the nature of this aggressive animal. Far from being an aberration, the American pit bull terrier has become a reflection of ourselves that no one cares very much to see. ''They're athletes. They're wrestlers. They're dead game,'' says Captain Arthur Haggerty, a dog breeder and trainer in New York City who owns five pit bull terriers and has trained hundreds of others. ''They will literally fight till they're dead. If you found that quality in a boxer or a football player, you'd say it was admirable. Will to win. That's what a pit bull has.'' Others call it a ''will to kill.''

''But the hysteria, or concern, is understandable. To the untrained eye -- or even to the trained one, in many instances -- it is virtually impossible to tell a docile pit bull from a mean one. None of them looks like a wimp, and a friendly pit bull jumping up to lick you to death has an eerie resemblance to a pit bull jumping up to rip out your throat. Your best bet is to pass a fast judgment on its owner. Pit bulls do not usually growl before attacking; they seldom bark. The hair on their backs does not stand on end when they are enraged. These are not dogs given to threatening displays.


Read the entire article here:
http://www.dogexpert.com/Popular Press/Pitbullfriend.html

jiminy, good quote. I think that different breeds have different temperments, just like diffent people do. Some are more prone to act agressively if threatened and some are more prone to back off and be submissive. Whether they act on their instincts though is largely a result of training. Pit Bulls are still widely trained to fight, and to fight to kill. This is an unfortunate effect of humans' selfishness. It still goes on a lot, and it's sick. But it does make a large number of Pit Bulls very dangerous as a result.

As far as not knowing whether a dog is mean or docile, I think it's safe to say that no one should ever go up to any dog without first asking the owner (and no owner should have their dog loose.) Even a normally-gentle Standard Poodle could bite if it had been trained badly or was frightened. And all parents should make sure their children know this. I can't tell you how many times little kids have run up to my dog and their parents weren't even watching them. Fortunately for me, I can totally trust my dog to be extremely gentle with kids. I've had kids pull her hair and bug her and the worst she'd do would be to whine and try to get away or hide behind me. But not all dogs are like that, and I'd never take a chance.

~ashes

 

[jiminy]

*edit* Lay a hand on my kids and we'll see how that luck/safety thing works for you when it comes to the dogs.

Unfortunately, it is the kind of mentality displayed in that statement that is exactly the problem with pit bulls, rather than the solution.

 

[m1marty]

Unfortunately, it is the kind of mentality displayed in that statement that is exactly the problem with pit bulls, rather than the solution.

That was in response to your post on how I am lucky that my dogs don't eat my kids. That "mentality" is that my dogs are protective of me and mine. As they should be. If you see my dogs protectivness as justifying your view that these things are kid killing machines......then I am obviously wasting my time here. If a dog stands by and cowers if I or my family is attacked, then that dog is not going to be part of my family. Have a good one.

 

[Cougar Allen]

I wonder how relevant the Corvair analogy really is. The fact is the Corvair was the most dangerous of cars in common use at the time -- slightly.

Ralph Nader made it clear in the first few pages of his book Unsafe At Any Speed that he considered all the cars of his time unsafe and that his intention was to begin by attacking the most unsafe one, the Corvair, and he made it clear that the statistics showed it was not much more dangerous than other cars. Then he filled the rest of the book with such emotionally slanted prose that he convinced vast numbers of people buying a Corvair was suicidally foolish. That was what drove the car off the market, not the facts.

Is that an off-topic digression, nothing to do with pit bulls? I dunno....

While I'm here, I vote for a standard poodle. My reasons have already been stated by others. I'll just add if you decide to get a smaller than standard poodle don't go too small. The really tiny dogs (not just poodles, all of them) are overbred and fragile and don't live as long as they should. When you breed for one quality alone you have to give up everything else....

 

[donovan]

Well, if your wife won't go for a boxer and you are looking at poodles you should check out the labradoodle (lab-poodle cross) and the goldendoodle (golden retriever-poodle cross). Silly names, but pretty cool looking dogs. Here's some info on the labradoodle:

Labradoodles - Sizes

Standard: Height: 21-24 inches; Weight: Female - 45-60 pounds; Male - 55-77 pounds.
Medium: Height: 18-23 inches; Weight; 40-55 pounds; Males being the larger.
Miniature: Height: 17 to 20 inches; Weight: 26-55 pounds; Males being the larger.
Labradoodles - Characteristics
The Labradoodle is known for its outstanding intelligence and trainability, low allergy coat, low to non-shedding coat and lack of doggie odor. They are slightly heavier than the Standard Poodle with strong front limbs. They are an overall balanced dog with a slightly longer than square build. They have three sizes: Standard, Medium, and Miniature. There are curly or wavy coats and they exhibit seven different colors: Black, Chalk, Creams, Apricot, Chocolate, Cafe au Lait and Silver. The coat should be about 4-6 inches in length. The Labradoodle's head is broad and their eyes are large, slightly round and set apart. Their nose is square and large. The tail is like a saber and should be low set.


Life Expectancy: Labradoodles tend to live for about 13-15 years.

Jack