Need help from the sharpening pros...

A

AaronJAnderson

Joined
Sep 2, 2010
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I've always been a fan of knifes and recently stumbled upon some videos that have renewed my interest, and I need a winter hobby.

All I've ever used is one of those red (600 grit) pocket sharpeners from DMT. That needs to go in the trash or the bottom of my backpack for camping.

Part of me just wants to go blow 230 bucks and get an EdgePro because I want instant gratification. Part of me wants to take my time to learn and enjoy a time honored craft and sharpen my blades by hand on a stone.

I went to Woodcraft today and picked up an 800/4000 grit Japanese waterstone and a strop along with some green chromium polishing compound.

I started out having a go at my kitchen knifes. They're all in bad shape. 10 minutes each and they're slicing through phone book pages like you'd expect to see at a trade show. Excellent. Very happy.

Then I switched to my cheap CRKT and Victorinox knifes. Spent some time building a good 22 degree edge on the 800, polished up on the 4k stone and hit the strop. All very sharp and sexy. They're not awesome, but they're cheap knifes. Very happy.

I spend some time on my Spyderco Delica (FFG). I worked on the 800 grit stone until the factory grind marks were gone and it was looking smooth. Very carefully spend some time honing on the 4k stone until it was shiny like a mirror. Lightly went over it with the strop and bang, shiny smooth and full of sex appeal.

Here's my question.... It's very sharp to me, but I'm no expert and I've never dealth with sharp knifes before (dad is a cabinet maker, so I know what sharp hand plane blades and chisels are supposed to feel like)

When I'm done, the edge doesn't feel sharp. It will slice phonebook, cut paracord, and it looks great. It will stick in my fingernail like I would expect a sharp knife to do. But if I run it into my skin like you would slice a Tomato it doesn't really cut... Not like a razor blade would anyway (I'm obviously being very careful here!) Maybe that's just because the edge is perfectly smooth? Maybe it's because I'm a noob :)

Help from anyone would be appreciated... What should I expect?
 
It depends. For me, if it easily cuts what I want, then it's sharp enough. I'm not into trying to make the world's sharpest cutter (It's an obsidian scalpel - edge one molecule thick).

I use paper wheels to sharpen my knives and a steel each time I pick one up. I can go a couple of months between sharpening. I have a friend who's a butcher and his edges last a month.

I carry a Schrade Honesteel in the field. If my knife stops working to my satisfaction while skinning an animal, a couple of licks on the Honesteel and my knife is sharp enough to finish.

I don't know whether I can whittle hairs with my knives. It's immaterial.
 
I have the same issue with water stones, it has to do with technique and getting to know the stone. Its also a little to do with driving the edge into the stone unknowingly.

I have yet to overcome this little problem so I usually switch to stones I'm good with.
 
AaronJAnderson said:
I've always been a fan of knifes and recently stumbled upon some videos that have renewed my interest, and I need a winter hobby.

All I've ever used is one of those red (600 grit) pocket sharpeners from DMT. That needs to go in the trash or the bottom of my backpack for camping.

Part of me just wants to go blow 230 bucks and get an EdgePro because I want instant gratification. Part of me wants to take my time to learn and enjoy a time honored craft and sharpen my blades by hand on a stone.

I went to Woodcraft today and picked up an 800/4000 grit Japanese waterstone and a strop along with some green chromium polishing compound.

I started out having a go at my kitchen knifes. They're all in bad shape. 10 minutes each and they're slicing through phone book pages like you'd expect to see at a trade show. Excellent. Very happy.

Then I switched to my cheap CRKT and Victorinox knifes. Spent some time building a good 22 degree edge on the 800, polished up on the 4k stone and hit the strop. All very sharp and sexy. They're not awesome, but they're cheap knifes. Very happy.

I spend some time on my Spyderco Delica (FFG). I worked on the 800 grit stone until the factory grind marks were gone and it was looking smooth. Very carefully spend some time honing on the 4k stone until it was shiny like a mirror. Lightly went over it with the strop and bang, shiny smooth and full of sex appeal.

Here's my question.... It's very sharp to me, but I'm no expert and I've never dealth with sharp knifes before (dad is a cabinet maker, so I know what sharp hand plane blades and chisels are supposed to feel like)

When I'm done, the edge doesn't feel sharp. It will slice phonebook, cut paracord, and it looks great. It will stick in my fingernail like I would expect a sharp knife to do. But if I run it into my skin like you would slice a Tomato it doesn't really cut... Not like a razor blade would anyway (I'm obviously being very careful here!) Maybe that's just because the edge is perfectly smooth? Maybe it's because I'm a noob :)

Help from anyone would be appreciated... What should I expect?
Click to expand...

Well, it's far from perfectly smooth, but comparatively it's a lot smoother. Edges finished on coarser abrasive will have that imparted on the finish of its blade. That is to say, if you have an abrasive that's 600 grit, then the edge will ( more or less ) have microserrations on it that are equivalent to 600 grit abrasive in their size and scale. Of course it depends on the actual size of the abrasives doing the cutting so it's not exactly proportional, but basically speaking anyway if you go from 600 mesh ( 25 micron ) to 1000 JIS (14 micron ) the finish that's left on the edge is going to have much smaller ( finer ) microserrations. Going up to 4000 grit and then stropping on chromium oxide gets even finer. Numbers aren't exact enough to have specific meaning here, but to give you an idea, 4000 grit JIS is 3 micron and chromium oxide is .5 micron.

So, yeah, it's not really "perfectly smooth" but it's a lot finer than something off of 600 grit and probably won't have the same flesh tearing feeling, so it doesn't feel as sharp in that regard. Of course, there are different types of sharp; you could probably shave with the edge that you have, whereas you probably couldn't with an edge finished on 600 grit. For some 600 grit is the right level of "fine" and I've seen this granted toward more utilitarian task sets; on the other hand wood-workers, barbers, chefs/cooks and other hobbyists/professionals seem to have more demand for that very high polish as they're task sets are more delicate and precise in nature. Around kitchen enthusiast forums I've often seen 1K water stones suggested as the ideal grit, whereas in other places I've heard people say that water-stones are too fine.

I always found this "smoother" feeling very deceptive, even when I was a a lot younger using the stones in my Lansky set. The coarse stones left a "toothy" edge that felt sharper to my finger than the "polished" edges from the finer stone. In a lot of ways it just depends on what your definition of "sharper" is; if I was trying to make a knife that would make very smooth cuts where I couldn't use a lot of slicing movement, I'd want a polished edge for push-cutting. On the other hand, if I need something that can slice something without having to apply too much lateral force which could move the material around, toothy is better.
 
You can always try a set of paper wheels. For $50 and a bench grinder, it pretty much defines "instant gratification" for sharp edges. Though I've been going back to freehand because it was getting a little TOO easy and I haven't been able to dull my edges fast enough in order to make good use of it. Edges won't look very pretty without lots of practice, but at 1-2 minutes per knife, the speed is worth it.
 
AaronJAnderson said:
Help from anyone would be appreciated... What should I expect?
Click to expand...

Well... you can expect a bunch of people to completely disregard your question about using your new water stones and tell you to buy paper wheels instead. :jerk it:

Using a new tool takes some time and patience. You are basically learning an entirely new skill, despite the fact that you are only sharpening on a new medium. Don't rush the results. Take the time needed to learn to handle the water stones. They require a different touch than Arkansas stones or Diamond plates. You need to pay attention to the slurry that you build up, learn to use that slurry to your advantage, and not try to use pressure to do the work instead of the slurry. Slurry is your friend. :D


Stitchawl
 
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I appreciate all the comments. I've had the paper wheels discussion on here before... I'd rather not use them. I don't have a good bench grinder and I don't really want to invest in one. It's more of a space/size/portability thing.

I'll do some research on waterstones and what's different about them. I might also get some of the DMT diamond stones... but I don't want to spend 300 dollars on crap to end up spending 230 on an Edgepro.
 
AaronJAnderson said:
I appreciate all the comments. I've had the paper wheels discussion on here before... I'd rather not use them. I don't have a good bench grinder and I don't really want to invest in one. It's more of a space/size/portability thing.

I'll do some research on waterstones and what's different about them. I might also get some of the DMT diamond stones... but I don't want to spend 300 dollars on crap to end up spending 230 on an Edgepro.
Click to expand...

Water stones have a very different feel to them compared with diamond stones or ceramics. It's almost an 'earthier' feeling, perhaps more 'in contact with the the stone' than with diamond or ceramics. And even though EdgePro uses water stones, the feeling is different between them and free handed water stones. Once you get used to them, and get them working properly for you, you might just love them. There are stones that are faster, stones that are smoother, but for some reason, the Master Sharpeners of Japan all use water stones. There's gotta be a reason, right?

Stitchawl
 
I have not done a lot of research on waterstones, but the impression I get is that you would soon far exceed the cost of an edgepro before you had a full "set" of quality waterstones. I briefly looked into buying two combination waterstones, but decided against it for budget reasons and that I can not justify buying another sharpening "method" when I have plenty already that all work well as designed.
 
ChapmanPreferred said:
I have not done a lot of research on waterstones, but the impression I get is that you would soon far exceed the cost of an edgepro before you had a full "set" of quality waterstones. I briefly looked into buying two combination waterstones, but decided against it for budget reasons and that I can not justify buying another sharpening "method" when I have plenty already that all work well as designed.
Click to expand...

A "full set" of 4 grit steps (2 combo stones) costs under $150 and it includes a flattening stone. Not bad at all.

It sounds like the OP is close to his target sharpness already so it's really about refinement at this point.
 
knifenut1013 said:
I have the same issue with water stones, it has to do with technique and getting to know the stone. Its also a little to do with driving the edge into the stone unknowingly.

I have yet to overcome this little problem so I usually switch to stones I'm good with.
Click to expand...

I've seen some people cut into the edge on the rougher stones and switch to going away from the edge on the finer grits, effectively stropping the edge and avoid rounding off the edge by mistake. Maybe that's a good way to avoid the problem.


Edited to add:
Hell, buy the paper wheels and your dreams will come true. :p
 
dsmegst said:
It sounds like the OP is close to his target sharpness already so it's really about refinement at this point.
Click to expand...

I have some rougher diamond stones I use if something is damaged but that rarely happens.

Refinement is where I am at. I should probably just order the Edgepro and shut up about it. :)

I'd love a set of diamond stones from DMT, but damn they're expensive!
http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2000226/2000226.aspx
 
do you get your knife shaving sharp after the 800 stone ? it should be before switching to 4k. a 4k stone can only refine an edge, the edge must already be there so if the knife isn't shaving sharp after the 800 you either haven't hit it or have a coarse burr that you have to deal with before refining the edge. another tip is to strop between the 1k and 4k to deburr the edge then restrop when you're done with 4k to refine it further. and don't forget one bad stroke on your polishing stone and you'll have to go back to 800 as you won't correct any flaw on a polishing stone. it's very easy to round and edge when polishing that's why i advise you to train your muscle memory on the 800 first.

most people who buy a set of japanese waterstone for the first time have this problem. when i learned sharpening i was only alowed to use the 1k grit first. when my sous chef seen that my edges where good at 1k he let me use his 6k. not before. coarser grit came after so i was sure not to screw an edge on a 220 stone that can do serious damages if used wrong.
 
first, do you get your knife shaving sharp after the 800 stone ?

it should be before switching to 4k you have to get a burr on one side then the second, work on it a good number of strokes, alternating sides to weaken it and decrease pressure to abrade it then you can move.

a 4k stone can only refine an edge, the edge must already be there so if the knife isn't shaving sharp after the 800 you either haven't hit the edge or have a coarse burr that you have to deal with before refining the edge.

another tip is to strop between the 1k and 4k to deburr the edge then restrop when you're done with 4k to refine it further.

and don't forget one bad stroke on your polishing stone and you'll have to go back to 800 as you won't correct any flaw on a polishing stone. it's very easy to round and edge when polishing that's why i advise you to train your muscle memory on the 800 first.

most people who buy a set of japanese waterstone for the first time have this problem. when i learned sharpening i was only alowed to use the 1k grit first. when my sous chef seen that my edges where good at 1k he let me use his 6k. not before. coarser grit came after so i was sure not to screw an edge on a 220 stone that can do serious damages if used wrong.
 
AaronJAnderson said:
Here's my question.... It's very sharp to me, but I'm no expert and I've never dealth with sharp knifes before (dad is a cabinet maker, so I know what sharp hand plane blades and chisels are supposed to feel like)

When I'm done, the edge doesn't feel sharp. It will slice phonebook, cut paracord, and it looks great. It will stick in my fingernail like I would expect a sharp knife to do. But if I run it into my skin like you would slice a Tomato it doesn't really cut... Not like a razor blade would anyway (I'm obviously being very careful here!) Maybe that's just because the edge is perfectly smooth? Maybe it's because I'm a noob :)

Help from anyone would be appreciated... What should I expect?
Click to expand...

I don't think this is a sharpening issue as much as it is you're getting a finer edge than you're used to. KennyB's answer is the one that sounds the best in this instance. It's possible you're rounding it a bit on the leather too.

You might try just refining your edge on the 4K stone and not use the strop... it's more likely to leave an edge that's pretty refined but still has a little "bite" still in it.

cbw
 
Hi dsmegst,

I was pricing an entry level kit which would only get me started. My idea of a full set was based on the Naniwa 220, 400, 800, 1000, 2K, 3K, 5K, 8K, 10K, 12K individual stones which I have only priced once so far. It is possible there are less expensive stores, but my total in US dollars before tax or shipping was going to be $606.65.

That did not include a handy adjustable foot plate, flatening stones, or abrasive grit for the flattening stones. Would that be necessary, I would guess not, but I would probably end up buying them anyway. :)

Doug
 
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dsmegst said:
I've seen some people cut into the edge on the rougher stones and switch to going away from the edge on the finer grits, effectively stropping the edge and avoid rounding off the edge by mistake. Maybe that's a good way to avoid the problem.


Edited to add:
Hell, buy the paper wheels and your dreams will come true. :p
Click to expand...


Sorry, I don't like dull knives.
 
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