Need help with forging press build.

[Salem Straub]

Nice job with the profile.
To build a a press with a 5" cylinder and halfway decent speed and power, you'll need AT LEAST a 5hp motor and 11 gpm pump.

 

[PoorestBoy]

Nice job with the profile.
To build a a press with a 5" cylinder and halfway decent speed and power, you'll need AT LEAST a 5hp motor and 11 gpm pump.

Thank you, im glad you like it.

I found out today that i do have what appears to be a 5 HP electric motor, only its 12 v DC. I also have a pump which i mentioned in another post, which was taken off of a forklift. Im assuming that the pump is big enough for my needs. The motor is 12 v DC though. I need to power it with a transformer i guess. I have an old HF mig welder that isnt worth replacing the mig torch on, and i thought i might be able to use the transformer from this welder to power the DC motor i have. THe Mig welder transformer is DC but i have no idea if it would power this DC motor or not. Do you have any understanding of transformers? Also, i wonder if i can hook this DC motor up to the pump using a direct drive connection. Do you know if this will work? I have no idea what the RPM on the motor is, i only know that it is probably 5hp.

 

[Lieblad]

Fwtor.

 

[PoorestBoy]

Fwiw, just doing the rough math in my head, 5hp takes a bit over 300 amps at 12volts.
That motor will run on less amperage. Of course it wont produce 5hp...

A transformer & rectifier to output 300A is going to draw around 18amps at 240volts
I dunno what a "HF mig welder" is, but any 300amp output welder is a very substantial machine. You sure its not worth replacing its torch ?
You might be better off keeping the battery, motor controller & charger from the forklift to run this motor.

Thanks. Yes, you're correct, it is 300 amps. That's a lot of juice. THe welder is only 110 amps, and its a cheap import welder. I only paid $89 for it on sale many years ago. THe torch would cost more than the welder so i wont be fixing it, although it would be worth it if its the only welder i had, because i could put a better torch on it than the factory supplied. However i do have another mig welder now anyway, so fixing it is a waste of money. I dont have the other forklift parts, and all i have is the pump. 300 amps is a lot of amps. I dont think i could even get a cheap 300 amp power supply, and it would be cheaper or just as affordable to buy a 5 hp AC electric motor. Looks like im back to the drawing board again. lol.

 

[jdm61]

Which I think is the recipe used to build my Imagination Xpress. At the "lower" pressure you get like 15-16 tons and it can be run up to 20 or so from what I have been told. Mine runs on an old style 240V 20A window unit air conditioner plug because that is what my Paragon oven has.

Nice job with the profile.
To build a a press with a 5" cylinder and halfway decent speed and power, you'll need AT LEAST a 5hp motor and 11 gpm pump.

 

[PoorestBoy]

Which I think is the recipe used to build my Imagination Xpress. At the "lower" pressure you get like 15-16 tons and it can be run up to 20 or so from what I have been told. Mine runs on an old style 240V 20A window unit air conditioner plug because that is what my Paragon oven has.

Thats what i'll shoot for, and in the mean time maybe i'll just build the poorman's press. I'll build the press frame and slap a air assist hydraulic jack under, and when i get all the parts for a more functional press i'll use that same frame.

 

[PoorestBoy]

I do have another question. How do you measure a hydraulic cylinder? When you say that i need a 5" cylinder, is that the outside diameter of the cylinder case, or is that the size of the ram? I saw one guy measure the cylinder on the outside of the cylinder case, but i also hear about bore size. I am a bit confused. How do i measure a cylinder?

 

[Lieblad]

Cylinders normally measure bore x stroke x rod dia.
Since bore is the only measurement what has to do with calculating potential force, I suspect that 5" suggestion was bore dia.

Fwiw,
remember a dual acting cylinder can extend much higher force more than retract.

 

[PoorestBoy]

Cylinders normally measure bore x stroke x rod dia.
Since bore is the only measurement what has to do with calculating potential force, I suspect that 5" suggestion was bore dia.

Fwiw,
remember a dual acting cylinder can extend much higher force more than retract.

Thats what i assumed but i wasnt sure. I saw a video showing a sales rep who demonstrated how to measure a cylinder so his company could help you find a replacement cylinder. He measured from center to center of the rods which hold the cylinder together. Here is the video im referring to.

https://youtu.be/8umhGl-jHho

 

[PoorestBoy]

I looked a hydraulic cylinder schematic and i understand how to measure a cylinder now.

 

[PoorestBoy]

This schematic explains it all.

 

[PoorestBoy]

Im found this 16 ton press (see youtube video in the link) and it seems to work well enough. I can build this for $500, not counting the steel for the frame. I might be able to use my existing pump and control valve, and all i need is a 2hp electric motor and a 4" cylinder. That would cost about $240 which is in my price range.

https://youtu.be/_26nwrh6NHU


Specs on the 16 Ton unit:

2hp Motor
11 GPM 2-Stage Pump
10 Inch Stroke, 4″ Cylinder

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Just remember that the steel will run you another couple hundred, and then you will need to make dies. The main thing is that you have welding w=equipment to do this type welding. Hobby/home type wire welders won't work. You will need at least 1/4" penetration, and 3/8" would be even better. This takes some real amperage, as well as welding skill.

There are many of us who have seen a weld come apart under stress. It can be anywhere from a sickening groan to a gun shot noise. In any case, it usually makes for a bad day.

The rule to follow for designing and building a forging press is to figure out how heavy it and the welds need to be ... and double that.

 

[Overmountain]

Just remember that the steel will run you another couple hundred, and then you will need to make dies. The main thing is that you have welding w=equipment to do this type welding. Hobby/home type wire welders won't work. You will need at least 1/4" penetration, and 3/8" would be even better. This takes some real amperage, as well as welding skill.

There are many of us who have seen a weld come apart under stress. It can be anywhere from a sickening groan to a gun shot noise. In any case, it usually makes for a bad day.

The rule to follow for designing and building a forging press is to figure out how heavy it and the welds need to be ... and double that.

Just to add to Stacy's weld comments, it kind of comes under the ability to weld though.... Preheat thick sections to ensure your penetration.... There are probably plenty of qualified welders in your area that will at least lend their time to educate or oversee.

Cheers. If I was closer by I'd hook you up with some steel from a local skill center going under.... Up to 1" thick plate. We have a 100A plasma that will cut it too...


-Eric
Overmountain Knife and Tool
Overmountain.us.com

 

[Willie71]

Just remember that the steel will run you another couple hundred, and then you will need to make dies. The main thing is that you have welding w=equipment to do this type welding. Hobby/home type wire welders won't work. You will need at least 1/4" penetration, and 3/8" would be even better. This takes some real amperage, as well as welding skill.

There are many of us who have seen a weld come apart under stress. It can be anywhere from a sickening groan to a gun shot noise. In any case, it usually makes for a bad day.

The rule to follow for designing and building a forging press is to figure out how heavy it and the welds need to be ... and double that.

A rod oven to allow the 7018 rods to work properly, proper fitment and bevelling for the joint type is needed, and at minimum 150 amp DCEP, with 200 being likely. AC requires higher amperage yet, if that's all you have. This is a high stress structural application. I'm no expert on welding, but with my limited knowledge, this is the minimum.

 

[PoorestBoy]

Just remember that the steel will run you another couple hundred, and then you will need to make dies. The main thing is that you have welding w=equipment to do this type welding. Hobby/home type wire welders won't work. You will need at least 1/4" penetration, and 3/8" would be even better. This takes some real amperage, as well as welding skill.

There are many of us who have seen a weld come apart under stress. It can be anywhere from a sickening groan to a gun shot noise. In any case, it usually makes for a bad day.

The rule to follow for designing and building a forging press is to figure out how heavy it and the welds need to be ... and double that.

Yes, the steel would be expensive, however i am planning on making it as miniature as possible, to cut down costs. I do have that 2" bar stock. I could use that to make a frame. I could put 4" of that on top and bottom, and 2" on the sides. I could also bevel them to get full penetration through the joint itself, and i could use 200 amps to weld it, using 5/32 7018 rod. 7018 is supposed to be more ductile than 6011, although 6011 is a more deeper penetrating rod. I welded my anvil horn with 7018 and it has really held up under a lot of hammering, without any sign of cracking yet. AS you say though, its better to add more strength than we may think is adequate, so i would probably weld plate steel over the joints after i welded the joints themselves. That would add a lot of strength i think. I also thought about notching out the sides of the frame as well, where the top and bottom join to the sides. I thought this may add even more strength by reducing the vertical stress on the joints. It would rely more on lateral strength then. (if im not confusing lateral with vertical) It would be like notching the sides of a wooden frame with a dado joint, or similar to a mortise and tenon joint, only its not a true mortise but is just a notch cut into the frame. Im not sure if that would work but it seems like it would. Doing all of tis together may just make a very strong frame, maybe. I sure dont want to have a bad day and have a weld break, especially it it might injure me in some way

About the dies. I thought about using that 2" bar stock for dies as well. Im not sure what kind of steel they are made from, but they were axles taken from an old trailer. In that case i would need to buy some heavy duty square tubing for the frame.

 

[PoorestBoy]

Just to add to Stacy's weld comments, it kind of comes under the ability to weld though.... Preheat thick sections to ensure your penetration.... There are probably plenty of qualified welders in your area that will at least lend their time to educate or oversee.

Cheers. If I was closer by I'd hook you up with some steel from a local skill center going under.... Up to 1" thick plate. We have a 100A plasma that will cut it too...


-Eric
Overmountain Knife and Tool
Overmountain.us.com

Thanks for the thought. Free salvaged steel is nice. Thats ok though, im sure in time i'll get what i need. You're correct that preheating thick bar stock is needed to get the best welding results. When i welded my anvil horn it was already pretty hot after i flame cut it with a torch and ground it with my grinder. I also took a little time after each welding pass in order to let the heat travel through the anvil. My anvil is all steel, i made it from forklift tines that i bought from a repair shop. They were in the scrap bin and he said he would sell them for 60 bucks. It was money well spent i think. When i weld dies, or any thick steel, i think i might just preheat with a torch, if maximum strength is critical. This is how they usually do it, if im not mistaken. Placing it in the forge might be good as an alternative.

 

[PoorestBoy]

A rod oven to allow the 7018 rods to work properly, proper fitment and bevelling for the joint type is needed, and at minimum 150 amp DCEP, with 200 being likely. AC requires higher amperage yet, if that's all you have. This is a high stress structural application. I'm no expert on welding, but with my limited knowledge, this is the minimum.

When i welded my anvil, I bought my rods new and hopefully they were dry enough. I dont have a rod oven. Proper fit and beveling are correct. I did bevel the joint. I was able to weld the entire joint that way. I beveled the top and bottom of the joint which ended up with a v shaped end on the horn. The horn itself was almost 3 inches thick at the joint. It was a lot of welding but it seems to be holding up good.

 

[PoorestBoy]

I believe that 300F- 400F is the desired preheat temperature for welding thick stock. Of course if you talk to a welder they will tell you that many factors are involved, but im not welding on the space shuttle, or a battleship, so maybe my skill and knowledge will be adequate.

 

[Willie71]

I thought your welder is 110 amps. That's fine for thinner steel. You need more juice for this project.

Have you considered using your money for some good hammers and just hammering your stock?

I have $1800 to $2000 budgeted to build a press. I could get it done for $1500 if I limit myself to 25tons. I don't want to buy twice here, so spend once, cry once.