Need Tips n Tricks for a Whispy hamon

Hankins

Hankins

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Dec 7, 2008
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Need Tips n Tricks for a Whispy hamon on Clay coated 1095 Oil quenched.
 
Last edited:
Just the right amount of clay
Controlled temperature HT
5-10 minute soak
Fast quench in #50
Proper finishing techniques
Lots of practise


Seriously, the question is so broad it is nearly impossible to answer.
 
Try this video
http://www.waltersorrells.com/blades/accessories.htm

hamon%20video%20dvd%20label%20small.jpg


MAKING HAMONS. The traditional Japanese method of heat treating swords yields a blade with a hard edge and a soft spine. This method manifests itself in the form of the "hamon," a visible line in the steel. This line was traditionally used to ornament the blade. On this video, three blades are "clay hardened", leading you from simple heat treating and clay layout techniques, through more complex and challenging designs. Includes information about various kinds of traditional hamons and how to make them, basic heat treating of carbon steel, and sources of tools and equipment. 1:15 minutes. $40 + shipping ($5 US or $10 international)


polishing%20video%20DVD%20cover%20small.jpg


HYBRID POLISHING FOR JAPANESE STYLE BLADES. This DVD hows basic polishing methods for Japanese style blades, including final polishing methods to make the hamon really pop. Several methods are shown including sandpaper, belt grinder and Japanese water stones. Etching and final hybrid (i.e. non-traditional) polishing will also be covered. It should be noted that this is not a "how to polish nihonto" video. It's aimed first and foremost at smiths who are making functional modern blades. That said, if you're looking to improve the polish or geometry on an imported tameshigiri blade, this video will have plenty of information for you. In particular we've tried to demystify the subject of Japanese water stones. Three blades are polished, including a shinogi zukuri blade, so you'll see how to set the geometry of the shinogi and the kissaki -- the two most difficult aspects of foundation polishing. 1:45 minutes. $49 + shipping ($5 US or $10 international).
 
I count Walter as one of my very first mentors in bladesmithing, he was the first shop I ever visited and I can wholeheartedly agree with the plug for his video, he did a great job.

That said, it all does come down to Temp, Quench, and Polish

those three need to be just about perfect to get a really good Hamon.


bladsmth said:
Just the right amount of clay
Controlled temperature HT
5-10 minute soak
Fast quench in #50
Proper finishing techniques
Lots of practise


Seriously, the question is so broad it is nearly impossible to answer.
Click to expand...

12345678910 said:
Try this video
http://www.waltersorrells.com/blades/accessories.htm

hamon%20video%20dvd%20label%20small.jpg


MAKING HAMONS. The traditional Japanese method of heat treating swords yields a blade with a hard edge and a soft spine. This method manifests itself in the form of the "hamon," a visible line in the steel. This line was traditionally used to ornament the blade. On this video, three blades are "clay hardened", leading you from simple heat treating and clay layout techniques, through more complex and challenging designs. Includes information about various kinds of traditional hamons and how to make them, basic heat treating of carbon steel, and sources of tools and equipment. 1:15 minutes. $40 + shipping ($5 US or $10 international)
Click to expand...
 
bladsmth said:
Just the right amount of clay
Controlled temperature HT
5-10 minute soak
Fast quench in #50
Proper finishing techniques
Lots of practise


Seriously, the question is so broad it is nearly impossible to answer.
Click to expand...
Its my guess that the last tip is the most important:D
 
What I am asking is:
Using an annealed 3/16" thick 1095 with a Flat grind that is 1" high with a Pre-HT edge that is .040 thick.
Clay used is High Heat Refractory Mortar applied at 1/8" thick
Edge Quenched in Fast Quench Oil from McMaster Carr Pre=heated to 130deg F
Heated to 1500deg in a Kiln that is ramped up slowly (approx 40mins)
Tempered in a 375deg two 2hr cycles with a 30min cool down in between
Take to 2000 grit finish

Ok what do I do next?:D
 
I would lower your austenitizing temp and thin your clay. I prefer Satanite for clay, but I know others do well with many different types of refractories.
 
Yup, what Nick said. I just got a crash course in hamon from Jesus Hernandez at the Fire & Brimstone hammer-in. I was AMAZED how little cay is applied. You really want the clay on your spine to be about .100-.125" thick at the most. Also, a very thin wash of clay over the entire blade first actually speeds up the quench during the vapor blanket stage, and then slows it down again during the convection stage. Very freaky stuff.

-d
 
It is actually Furnace cement it turns out.
Great advice... Have one drying and now it needs to be re-done.
My "Clay" is way too thick I will thin it out and post some pics if someone else will chime in and offer advice on the final finishing:thumbup:
 
Drop the austenitization to about 1425-1450F.
DO NOT EDGE QUENCH....full quench the whole balde.
As said by the others, satanite seems just about perfect, 1/10 to 1/8 thick.
For a whispy hamon, try ashi lines.
Polish by hand only. Use even pressure and avoid any "rubbing" of the abrasive...just clean cutting strokes.
Etch with FC diluted 10:1 or 100:1 nitric acid.
Work the hamon with hazuya, if needed, to enhance the nie and nioi.
Using shashikomi instead of kanahada can help accent the hamon,too.
 
Great advice that is over my head on this thread already. But here's something I do that seems to make the hamon pop a bit more. I sand cleanly as Stacy suggested (clean cutting strokes) up to 2000 grit before etching. Then I etch in a diluted Ferric Chloride, makeing sure the blade is COMPLETELY clean (no fuzz, fingerprints, dust, etc). After etching, I use a paper towel wrapped around a piece of angle iron, sprayed with WD40, with red rouge rubbed into the towel (I actually scrape very fine shavings onto the towel and work them in with my finger), and I polish the etched blade. This removes the surface oxides and helps polish out the hamon a bit. Frequent re-charges of your rouge can help. If you like, you can re-etch and re-polish. Just make sure you're clean every time you etch.

--nathan
 
buy the videos......

personally, I've used "finger stones" and don't care for them. I also don't use ferric chloride, I use a 50/50 solution of cider vinegar that I heat.
 
Went back and Re-Did the Clay/cement on the drying blade keeping it much thinner. Also adding some heavy and fine detail lines in the Clay. Added a fine coat of clay to the edge area and will do a full quench on it tomorrow.

Just did one with a heavier coat and many lines on the edge, it is in the Tempering oven right now. This one was an edge quench.
Very curious to see how this turns out.
Comparing the two results might get me closer to the goal.

Now... We wait
 
I'm just curious why the edge quenching with a clay coated spine? Clay coating the spine slows the cooling when the whole blade is quenched. Edge quenching a clay coated blade prevents cooling of the spine and may excessively auto-temper your blade as it isn't cooled adequately.
 
Nathan,
What you are describing is the kanahada ( red iron oxide) technique of hamon accentuation. If it doesn't seem to bring out the hamon details from the background ji, then an alternate technique using finely ground magnetite is done (shashikomi). The use of green chrome (green rouge) works very similarly to shashikomi.

69 knives,
You are correct in your understanding. An edge quench may show a quench line, but will never have a wispy hamon. To get a hamon, you need to have the spine form pearlite and the edge form martensite ( which an edge quench will do), but the boundary needs to have the ability to wander about and form floating crystals of martensite ( nie and nioi), which would not happen with an edge quench. The more the boundary gets diffused, the more activity the hamon has.
 
Take this FWIW, although I'm no expert on Hamon, I've done quite a few. Along with soak time & temp and clay thickness, I've found the quenchant to be an extremely important aspect of getting good activity. IMHO, water is # 1 when it comes to getting a great looking Hamon. Unfortunately, if everything isn't just right, it's also the quickest way to find out what your grain structure looks like ......... from the inside ;)

In regards to oil, I've found McMasterCarr High Speed Quenchant to not be very fast. Not when compared to Parks #50 anyway. I started getting much nicer looking Hamon when I switched from McMasterCarr High Speed to Parks 50. Like you've already mentioned, make sure you heat your oil to speed up the quench rate as fast as is possible.

Take notes :), detailed notes :thumbup:



:cool:
 
Is anyone able to compare the effectiveness of Houghton K quench vs Parks 50?

is it as fast? Does it hammon as well ?
 
Stacy, regarding kanahada vs. shashikomi to bring out hamon activity, is shashikomi done in place of kanahada, or is it a stepwise progression: kanahada followed by shashikomi? Thanks!

--nathan
 
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