Never buying liner or frame lock again!

M-16-03Z. I don't remember there being any play when it was new but after two years of use (and dare I say, abuse) it had a little. If I hadn't found such a good deal on my plain edge Spyderco Rescue I'd probably still be carrying it. I think I've come to trust the lockback more than any, but most of my cutting is done by a carbon steel slip joint. I'm eyeing a small fixed blade for jobs that are beyond my trapper. YMMV

Frank
 
I own several liner lock knives, several frame locks, several lockbacks, and several axis locks. None of my knives have blade play up or down, or side to side.

These knives include:

Lockbacks: 5 or 6 Spyderco Delicas, one Spyderco Copilot, one Myerchin Offshore crew knife (s.s. handles, with marlinspike)

Axis locks: two personal Benchmade Mini-Griptilians, and one I got for my brother

Liner locks: one Spyderco Walker lightweight (and one I got for my brother) and one Benchmade AFCK liner lock.

Frame locks: one Kershaw Vapor, one Gerber Mini-Paraframe and one reg. size Paraframe

Just about all these knives are wiggle-free. The only exceptions are the full size Paraframe, which is put together like a p.o.s., and one Delica -- my oldest, which had a tiny amount of front-to-back play when new. It was minimal, and as I recall, I whacked the pivot with a hammer and punch and it tightened right the hell up!

Even though I was new to decent knives, when I went for my very first Spyderco Delica, I studied the specimens at the flea-market booth where I bought it, and picked one from about three of them, that seemed to have no play. I looked carefully at the tang where it met the lockback lever. I chose one with a tight fit. Even though I still am alert for blade play in my folders, I am mostly at the mercy of random chance, since many knives I purchase lately are bought online. Either I have been really lucky, or most knives these days are just made pretty well.

I don't know how or why you have acquired so many liner locks with such bad play. I can't explain why I have had just about ZERO problem with this.

What kind of liner lock knives have you purchased that cannot be tightened with an alan or torx screw to eliminate the blade play?

---Jeffrey
 
Only real men make real folders, lockbacks rule. I'm wear'n armor plate from head to toe so don't even bother getting stabby!LOL:D
 
have had great luck w/my MT SOCOM elite/BM 800,910/buck strider/DDR and cammilus maxx/EKI CQC7, CQC8,P-Tac,SOCFK,spec war,I&I tanto/etc etc etc.

and most custom folders are liner locks (ie emerson, crawford/etc)

with the pivot tightened properly, i dont see any reason liner locks/frame locks should fail, all depends on the manufacturer imho.

not to knock axis stuff, have a few and like them too, but must say all my EDC stuff is liner lock (ie EKI CQC8, I&I tanto, P-Tac and crawford perfigo) NEVER aprob w/any of them.

greg
 
I've had a bunch of liner locks: Spyderco Lum tanto; Al Mar SERE 2000; Boker Brend; Buck Odyssey, and others. Wanna guess which one out of the bunch was the most reliable? The humble Buck Odyssey. The SERE's lock seemed bomb-proof, but in reality would disengage under fairly light pressure.

I don't think I'll ever buy another liner lock, unless it's a Strider AR, or something along those lines. On the other hand, I feel that a good frame lock (Sebenza, for example) is just about the best locking system around. I love lockbacks, too, though, and the Axis lock ain't bad either.
 
Originally posted by DaveH
Heh, just wait until your omega springs start breaking. :p
Click to expand...

I have a pre-production 710. Don't know how many years that has been, but it is still working perfectly. This knife has been my Axis lock crash test dummy too.
 
I have limited liner lock experience myself, but last time I was shopping for a knife I did a bunch of searches on the various locking mechanisms here. Based on that research, I eliminated liner locks. I ended up with a couple AXIS lock knives. In addition to their other virtues, they do not require you to put part of your body between the frame/handle and the closing blade. I also like lockbacks--especially those with the "Boye dent".

In an absolutely, positively can not fail application, I'd go with a frame-lock (specifically a Sebenza), but my EDC applications are not so critical that I lose sleep over the possibility of a broken omega spring.

BTW, my Griptilians have had no blade play whatsoever. My 806D2 has barely discernable side-to-side blade play when the pivot is loose enough for easy flicking, but it's an old one without bronze washers.
 
My axis locks let me either adjust the pivot to flick out or to not have side-play. I'm still too prone to the novelty of flicking them open (when will it ever get old?), so I live with it. Only two of my axis locks have the old nylatron washers, but all are victim to the flicking versus play dichotomy.
 
There are few liner locks that I've ever had problems with, even amongst less expensive brands (Gerber, etc). Have you tried a Benchmade or Microtech? I've handled alot of them and have yet to find one with blade play.
Matt
 
boink,
U a deliverance fan too?

by the way, I have sworn off liner locks after the lock on my CRKT M16 failed at"the wrong time" and cut my pinkey to THE BONE
 
I have a number of liner locks that have been carried since '89 or there abouts. Many have been my EDC while a constuction rigger and crafts supervision. These blades saw service without mercy and without thought as to the postion of cut, material or lock failure. I never had a problem.

Many slow days rigging, I would make up tag lines, 100 cuts through 1" or 3/4 manila would not be uncommon doing splices.


I believe that the failure of liners is overdone

Steve
 
also dont think it fair to bash all liners cause a CRKT failed ya, i mean, CRKT is OK, a good entry level knife, but they are hardly a emerson or BM or spydie or MT or....well i guess ya understand.

i know my DDR maxx has a very tight secure lock up w/no blade play at all, i cant imagine it failing.

i have an old 710 prototype, and when i first saw it i knew BM had something, so they are good too.

also i check all my carry knives by LIGHTLY tapping the blade on the carpet to make sure they lock up ok, have only had 2 fail this test, a CRKT, and the self proclaimed "most advanced/strongest lock on the planet", a REKAT, talk about cutting youself, try a 5.5" SIFU (razor sharp too)rebounding on ya when it doesnt lock, and getting a finger or 2. BTDT, hopefully never again though lol.

greg
 
SIFU1A :

I sold several Emerson linerlocks last year that would allow the liner to disengage at the slightestspine whack right out of the box.

You yourself point out that you have had liners fail as well.

I carried nothing but high end linerlocks for years. Several, including a custon Elishewitz titanium linerlock let go on me and nearly took a few fingers. Fortunately, I was wearing tac gloves during the live training on dummies when it let go and the gloves suffered greatly but the fingers were intact with only "red lines".

I've had tip up liners open in the pockets and stab my thumb going for the knife in the pocket as well.

That tells me I can't trust the linerlocks to not close no matter what I spent on the knife [ considerable for some of them ]and I certainly do not carry tip up in linerlock config as I really need that thumb.

Linerlocks do not have to be inexpensive to fail, and if they work today, they may fail tomorrow when your life is dependant on it.

No thanks. It's back to front/mid/back locks for me.

Brownie
 
I don't understand the OP. Frame locks are not the same as liner locks in my experience. I have had liner locks fail, but I have never had a frame lock fail on me. I own four axis locks, and I've never had one fail, or had an omega spring break - yet. I will never again buy a liner lock, not when I have what I believe are better alternatives.
 
Originally posted by Westflorida
I even bought one of the new Delica's with OD green handles and it had "front to back" blade-play.
Click to expand...
The Delica's have front locks not linerlocks.
OTOH, I also dislike linerlocks. Had some good ones, some bad ones but the fact is I'd rather preffer other locking systems.
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
SIFU1A :
I carried nothing but high end linerlocks for years. Several, including a custon Elishewitz titanium linerlock let go on me and nearly took a few fingers. Fortunately, I was wearing tac gloves during the live training on dummies when it let go and the gloves suffered greatly but the fingers were intact with only "red lines".
Click to expand...

I need someone to explain this to me.

A liner-lock holds the blade in the open position, and something would have to be making the blade close against the liner lock to make it fail, and possibly snap closed onto the user's fingers.

WHAT NORMAL USE OF A KNIFE subjects the lock to *closing* pressure along the *spine*?

When I cut with my knives, the pressure of cutting forces them toward the full OPEN position. I never use a knife to press against something with the SPINE, so I don't figure I'm in any danger from a liner-lock failure (nor even a frame-lock, axis-lock, or lock-back failure either).

Is there a legitimate use for a knife that involves pressure that could theoretically close the blade by forcing the lock to fail? I never *ever* thought of liner locks (or even lockbacks) as being designed to bear loads (much less dangerously high ones) during use of the knife as intended (i.e. using the blade to cut).

Just as it would be ludicrous to strain to pull the trigger of a gun that is "on safe" with the muzzle pointed at your head -- trusting implicitly in the strength of the safety mechanism -- so it is ludicrous (I feel) to put strain on the safety mechanism of a knife (the lock) with one's fingers in harm's way.

From the description above, it sounds like you were using the knife to stab dummies or something. If those are the circumstance under which your liner-locks failed, it's understandable. A stabbing -- as opposed to slicing -- motion could put strain on the knife toward the lock. But if that were the case, I would use only fixed blade knives for that purpose. Surely if you are part of a tactical team, and might need to stab someone hard enough that a liner-lock would fail, you would be able to carry a fixed-blade combat knife. I mean, there wouldn't be any legal carry issues...


---Jeffrey
 
He could have merely shifted his grip slightly.

I'd imagine that training on dummies requires a tight grip. With a white-knuckle grip, almost all locking liners will shift, creating a gap between blade tang and locking liner. With a bit of torque, the liner can disengage, closing on the fingers.

I'd had the above happen to me numerous times with different linerlockers. I'll stick with AXIS-locks, lockbacks, and variants, thanks. Although, some liner-lockers have recessed liners which keep liner away from the fingers, and may be more safe than others. But the safety issue is still there.

Edited to add: Most linerlockers are safe under normal use, however. For heavier use, I'd choose another lock.
 
I agree, linerlocks shouldn't be used in truly tactical situations. Stick with the fixed.

Getting back to the issue of linerlock falures and not using them anymore. I think this is bit extreme. There are many prodution linerlocks that will not fail and are very solid under normal use. Finding the right one is another problem.

If the money is in your budget, there are a lot of custom knife makers that make excellent liner locking folders. It sounds like most of the people in this discussion prefer the tactical folders. Check out the likes of Smith, DeVillers, Ralph, Pardue, Crawford, and Elishewitz. There are many others. As far as the person saying an Elishewitz failed him; I've owned two of his knives and never had a problem. Sounds like extreme use to me, using a folder to practice defense moves on dummie.
 
Hello folks, I'm back to explain what happened for everyones edification.

I used the linerlocking folders in defensive minded situations, hence practicing on the dummies in stabbing and slashing exercises.

The Elishewitz ti folder had been "Brownie popped"
open over 5000 times in the course of it's life in my pocket ad the EDC for defense. The pivot washer had been elongated enough doing the speed pops opening them that under a hard slashing across the dummie it released the lock.

I've had other high end linerlocks disengage at the most inopportune time as well doing the "spine whack" test for this very real problem.

In stabbing a hard target in tests, maybe hitting bone on a human as the analogy, the liners have disengaged ocassionally due to the force applied the the spine of the blade and also due to torquing the blade in a target already stabbed.

The Elishewitz was sent back [ had carried it maybe 7 years ] and Alan fixed it up real good again and replaced the worn parts at no charge except shipping it back to me.

See, thats the problem with linerlocks, they work until they don't and you never know when that might be. Now under hard use that could mean losing a few fingers or perhaps cutting some nerves in the fingers and at any rate neither is acceptable to me.

Front/mid/back locks will be the order of the day for me. Linerlocks are nice but the mechanism is prone to wear and even new can fail as in several Emerson Commanders I have sold that went back immediately in the last year due to linerlock failure with barely any pressure oter than a push on the spine of the blade.

Bad ju ju, and one my fingers will never have to worry about again.

It won't happen? Have complete confidence in them?
No problem with me folks, it's your finger that will suffer and not mine.

I was fortunate that I was wearing the tac gloves or I would have been up to the hosptial and missed all the training going on that day. Never mind what the fingers would have looked like afterwards.

Trust in the linerlocks not relaeasing under heavy use/defensive use is misplaced and lessons learned the hard way are lessons learned for life.

Brownie
 
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