New car / automobile buying & leasing tips for CPK'ers

That model is a factory set up which was only limited to the Tacoma Trail Edition (basically a glorified SR5). The bronze accents including the TRD Pro type of wheels and the TOYOTA heritage grille. Sadly the color Army Green has been discontinued in the 2023 Trail Editions but not quite sure about the other models such as TRD Off-Road and the TRD Sport.

If anyone is considering a souped-up Tacoma, this is what I would do now: get a long-bed SR5 4WD (alas the Trail only came in short-bed) at the $38K+ and then have the dealer to the legit Toyota upgrade kit for the $2.5K which they charge (kinda like the Pro shocks lifting the front by 2" and the rear by 1.1"). None of the expensive aftermarket stuff with the exception of your own choice of wheels and beefier off-road tires such as the KO2s. I got what I got because I wanted the locking rear diff which the regular SR5 doesn't offer in addition to the standard 4WD. For that reason, I was limited to the 1" front end lift and the .5" back lift by factory, also losing 1 foot in bed length (SB only!). What I have is "off road lite" because I don't care for the fancy features such as Crawl and all the other electronic assistances that the fancier TRD Pro and TRD Off-Road versions can offer. A Southern Cali mall-hauler doesn't need any of those other fanciful schticks! 🤣
Been toying with the idea of getting those wheels for mine. Found a dealership close-ish that I could get them for a couple hundred less (shipped) than the dealer I got my truck from.
 
I would appreciate some advice from this knowledgeable crowd since I buy a car once every 15 years or so, whether I need it or not. Unfortunately I can’t justify a truck in the burbs. I’ve got 263K miles on my 2005 Honda Accord Hybrid and would love to buy another one with gas on the rise and all. I’ve read that the 2021 model fixed some growling that was in the 18-20 models so was focusing on that. I’m looking for the Touring trim with all the goodies.

I don’t mind a higher mileage used car since I keep my cars a while and I didn’t have to put a penny into my old one until the last couple of years. But I was wondering if a new 2023 can be had for close to a used 2021 or 2022 given that 2024s are showing up on the lots now. In other words, are 2023 Accord Hybrids being discounted at all these days or will I be laughed out the door if I offer $35K vs the $39,440 sticker price??

I also need (want) a white or light grey interior since black depresses me and makes the cabin too hot in the summers. Will that requirement degrade my negotiating position? Thanks in advance!
 
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It would help me more to do some digging into this if I know where you are and what radius you are willing to shop? For the same exact reason that you stated (gas prices on the rise) you will most likely (politely or impolitely) be shown the door if low-balling the auto dealer on his ~ 40K window price, but then again, not impossible just highly improbable depending on the current MMR range of that 2023 Accord Hybrid. Can you get me the VIN on that Accord?

P.S. I suggest that you consider buying the basic ($10 membership?) and message me if you'd like. I can try to help you out some more through DM.
 
I have been away from BF for a while (sacrilege, I know) and let my gold membership lapse (more sacrilege) but renewed it just now. Thanks for the reminder. I’ll try to message you later.

When I search for used cars on cars.com I use a 150 or 200 mile radius from Framingham MA. Not sure it would be wise to go that far for a new car since a big advantage of a new car is the relationship with the dealer during the initial years. Or is that worthless these days?

I don’t have a VIN since I’m assuming that if I go the new car route any dealership close to my house will be able the bring in a specific car that meets my requirements from another dealership. Are things so cutthroat now that they won’t do that?

I’m considering any Accord Hybrid Touring with white or light grey interior, red or silver exterior. I could try to get a VIN as an example for you if that helps you help me.

I guess I’m really asking what price I can reasonably push for on that new car and how to go about getting that price. Are MMR reports useful for new cars, too?

Thanks very much!
 
I have been away from BF for a while (sacrilege, I know) and let my gold membership lapse (more sacrilege) but renewed it just now. Thanks for the reminder. I’ll try to message you later.

When I search for used cars on cars.com I use a 150 or 200 mile radius from Framingham MA. Not sure it would be wise to go that far for a new car since a big advantage of a new car is the relationship with the dealer during the initial years. Or is that worthless these days?

I don’t have a VIN since I’m assuming that if I go the new car route any dealership close to my house will be able the bring in a specific car that meets my requirements from another dealership. Are things so cutthroat now that they won’t do that?

I’m considering any Accord Hybrid Touring with white or light grey interior, red or silver exterior. I could try to get a VIN as an example for you if that helps you help me.

I guess I’m really asking what price I can reasonably push for on that new car and how to go about getting that price. Are MMR reports useful for new cars, too?

Thanks very much!

MMR is a great snapshot to use for used cars, not new. The MMR is used more religiously these days than Kelly Blue Book, NADA (or whatever their new name is since they got bought out) Black Book, etc. For new cars, I suggest that you dig around the forums on the site LeaseHacker (not necessarily for leases) but beware that just like any sites it takes a bit of time and effort to navigate around the forums in there. We can discuss things a bit more through PM so not to clog up Nathan's sub with outside leads and such.
 
PSA for the fans of Toyota trucks and SUVs: Tacos, 4Runners and the new Tundra (meh, not a big fan of these right now taking a wait and see posture on the new V6 twin turbo / hybrid engines). I am starting to see some deep discounts as compared to the lofty and heady prices and ridiculous markups during and early post Covid era. I am seeing ~4K ~ 5K off their MSRP (through brokers who birddog bargain hunters for dealerships' older must-sell units). I expect this trend to continue as the higher interest rates are biting and people are not in the mood to spend on want vs need items. If you are a believer in the proven naturally aspirated V6 Toyota engines vs the new trend of the turdos / hybrids and don't mind the old antiquated stodgy styling and also believe that the current Gen 5 4Runner and the current Gen 3 Tacos will retain a great deal of their value in the future, this is about good time to start getting serious.

The above was the good, now the bad/ugly part:

- You may have to travel or arrange for transportation (will cost you some $) if you are from smaller states where you ca not get these deals
- You will have to work with a broker and pay the brokerage fees upon signing the paperwork (it's off the books, nothing to do with the selling dealer and based on honor system. Yes, the broker does at times get stiffed, C'est la Vie!)
- If you are financing, the current rates are awful! For instance, TFS (Toyota Financial Services) rates for 60 mo for 4Runners is at 7.15% and Tacos are at 4.99% for premier credit (FICO score > 720ish). Banks and CU rates are not much better these days.
- New taco models are coming out in 2024 and new 4Runner in 2025 meaning that there will be a glut of used trade-ins so the used car market will be probably be swamped with trade-ins by those who throw their $ at wanting the latest and the greatest!
- Although Toyota has always been quite conservative and doesn't price gouge, their MSRP and new vehicle delivery fee$ have escalated recently meaning that even MSRP less ~ 5K comes to about what you would've paid a few years ago on these even if you were the worst negotiator!

Caveat emptor: don't shoot the messenger. As stated on top, this is just a PSA!
 
PSA for the fans of Toyota trucks and SUVs: Tacos, 4Runners and the new Tundra (meh, not a big fan of these right now taking a wait and see posture on the new V6 twin turbo / hybrid engines). I am starting to see some deep discounts as compared to the lofty and heady prices and ridiculous markups during and early post Covid era. I am seeing ~4K ~ 5K off their MSRP (through brokers who birddog bargain hunters for dealerships' older must-sell units). I expect this trend to continue as the higher interest rates are biting and people are not in the mood to spend on want vs need items. If you are a believer in the proven naturally aspirated V6 Toyota engines vs the new trend of the turdos / hybrids and don't mind the old antiquated stodgy styling and also believe that the current Gen 5 4Runner and the current Gen 3 Tacos will retain a great deal of their value in the future, this is about good time to start getting serious.

The above was the good, now the bad/ugly part:

- You may have to travel or arrange for transportation (will cost you some $) if you are from smaller states where you ca not get these deals
- You will have to work with a broker and pay the brokerage fees upon signing the paperwork (it's off the books, nothing to do with the selling dealer and based on honor system. Yes, the broker does at times get stiffed, C'est la Vie!)
- If you are financing, the current rates are awful! For instance, TFS (Toyota Financial Services) rates for 60 mo for 4Runners is at 7.15% and Tacos are at 4.99% for premier credit (FICO score > 720ish). Banks and CU rates are not much better these days.
- New taco models are coming out in 2024 and new 4Runner in 2025 meaning that there will be a glut of used trade-ins so the used car market will be probably be swamped with trade-ins by those who throw their $ at wanting the latest and the greatest!
- Although Toyota has always been quite conservative and doesn't price gouge, their MSRP and new vehicle delivery fee$ have escalated recently meaning that even MSRP less ~ 5K comes to about what you would've paid a few years ago on these even if you were the worst negotiator!

Caveat emptor: don't shoot the messenger. As stated on top, this is just a PSA!
I have to agree about the naturally aspirated V6 from Toyota. I have a 1995 T100 with the 3.4L V6. This is my daily driver, commuter, camping rig, hauler, my only vehicle Lol. I keep up on any minor maintenance and this truck is always there for me. I can perform any maintenance myself for cheap. I might upgrade someday to a gen3 Taco, or gen5 4Runner. I plan to stay away from the turbo4, turbo6, and hybrid models that are coming out. I just don’t see those models lasting 30 yrs like the old T100.
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Any advice on either a CR-V Hybrid or Rav4 Hybrid purchased new? My 2015 GTI has shit the bed so I'm going to fix it and trade it in on a small SUV. We're a fan of both Toyota and Honda reliability. Mazda would work, too, but the Mazda dealership in our area has closed.
My wife has the 2024 CRV hybrid, 6000 miles so far and not a single issues. Average is 40+ mpg and a nice and roomy interior and comfortable ride. Only thing is the electric motor on idle is so quiet, I can’t tell if the car is on or off. I recommend it.
 
My wife has the 2024 CRV hybrid, 6000 miles so far and not a single issues. Average is 40+ mpg and a nice and roomy interior and comfortable ride. Only thing is the electric motor on idle is so quiet, I can’t tell if the car is on or off. I recommend it.
I’m torn between a hybrid or ‘normal’ version. The extra cost for the hybrid drivetrain should pay for itself in 3-5 years, but does the additional complexity (and long term maintenance costs) of having both the gas and electrical systems outweigh the savings?
 
I’m torn between a hybrid or ‘normal’ version. The extra cost for the hybrid drivetrain should pay for itself in 3-5 years, but does the additional complexity (and long term maintenance costs) of having both the gas and electrical systems outweigh the savings?

FWIW and always take with a grain of salt:

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/honda/cr-v-hybrid/2023

"...However, I did have a problem with the hybrid crossover. If you’re driving in the city, you’ll enjoy the maximum fuel-economy benefit of the hybrid powertrain. Get it out on the highway though, and the gas mileage I experienced was, well, terrible. It was no better than you’d see from a non-hybrid SUV and a far cry from the results its archrival, the Toyota RAV4 Hybrid, delivers.

The CR-V Hybrid also carries a significantly higher price tag than the Kia Sportage Hybrid or the Hyundai Tucson Hybrid, though it doesn’t offer comparable warranty coverage...
"

Personal opinion: if your $ stretches, go for Toyota, then Honda in that order before considering either Hyundai or KIA not matter the "experts'" rankings. You will get better deals on the gas models, the last I looked they seem to be a couple of thousands or perhaps better, off the MSRP on the gas models. but as always YMMV (no pun).
 
PSA type post which FWIW relates to the recent CDK Global hack (no, not CPK!) which is being mentioned and reported in the media. Personally I am currently a few degrees removed from the business but I still chinwag with active friends. Behind the scenes, things seem to be a lot more messy than being reported so the purpose of posting snippets of my text conversation with one of those friends, is to alert those of you who may be interested in this development. If some of you think like, "well, I have not bought a car for eons and I don't really care as to what happens to those greedy SOBs!", you may still want to read on just to be on your guard.

I would also like to add that this hack has reportedly affected about 15000 dealerships across the U.S so not all dealerships use this company for document management system but CDK is like the 800 lb. gorilla in the industry and since everything seems to be interconnected, who is to say that the rest will not be impacted in some form and shape down the road. I don't say that the sky is falling but the following account from a franchise manager on the ground in FL seems to be quite depressing:

"...The DMS is intertwined with everything. It controls the phones, the scheduling system for service, warranty, connecting with the manufacturers, parts ordering, and even ensuring vehicles we are working on.

Service is practically shut down because we can't functionally handle anything warranty wise nor can we properly document anything we are doing. And yes, there's some parts that can just be called in from third parties, but ordering from the manufacturer is dead.

We can't do payroll, nor pay any vendors because somebody thought it was genius to intertwine our own finances with the system.

I can't do business with other dealers because nobody knows what they own nor how much they own it for.

Our 3 dealerships have lost more than a million dollars in revenue, And I personally have become so desperate for income I re-upped my eBay account and dumped every little thing I could on there which really amounts to jack and sh*t!

So yeah, we can work deals by hand but it's still limits our ability to actually sell the vehicle because there's too many modern systems and registrations and everything else that go through CDK

We haven't even touched upon the fact we have no access to our own customer database, nor what this f*cking investment company has cost us with our customers information

In short, CDK claims to be the best dealer management system, conquering the industry with more than a third of the US market... and then they sold themselves to an investment firm that figured out how the gut all the techies from the company and coast on profit. And now they got hacked and they can't handle it whatsoever because they are an investment group, not software developers and when CDK was winning everyone over several years ago, manufacturers like general motors all but required it
They would say things like, "We prioritize orders through CDK, and our financing companies are all linked with it," etc etc...

So about 5 years ago the dealership had to switch over to CDK and we have BMW, and Mercedes, along with Buick and GMC franchises. All of them are interlaced for every possible internal system

And this Eastern European, russian-backed hacking group is holding the entire system hostage. They're not talking about it in the media, but the rumor is 100 million dollar ransom.

That's not to say that they take the hundred million dollars and unlock the system, but they also will have the data of $100 million people in the United States since CDK handles the financial arm of selling vehicles as well.

Social security numbers, all intimate information to verify who you are, your address, financial information, vehicle registrations....

Even if you haven't bought a car from a dealership in 15 to 20 years, when dealerships switched over to CDK.... They moved all of their data to CDK cloud.

The reason why is that older systems typically require you to have your own server located on site. Since your servers were going away, there were specific migration processes were you essentially backed up your entire dealership history to CDK


So there's a chance if you bought a Lexus at a car dealership in 2005 and have never thought of the dealership again, but they got hacked and your data was stored in the cloud
Obviously your home address and vehicle information could be old, but your date of birth, full legal name, and social security number are unchanged!

There could be possibly many thousands of lawsuits wrapped around this data breach.

Dealerships can't give customers back their cars because the customer is not going to pay out of pocket for warranty work, but we can't get reimbursed or process warranty work so the cars sit.

Customers will sue us.

We will sue CDK.

Customer's personal information is stolen and leaked online.

Customers will sue us.

We will sue CDK.

Investors will sue CDK for negligence.

Manufacturers will sue CDK for lost revenue.

Dealerships will sue CDK for lost revenue.

The investment firm could possibly collapse then declare bankruptcy to walk away from the mess!

This all sounds over the top, but no matter the outcome the repercussions will be a years of legal proceedings and lawsuits and class action movements and all that crap

Auto auctions are an absolute disaster, because dealerships don't even have access to their money nor know how much they actually have, nor have the means to process anything they would want to purchase. And why purchase something if you have nothing in place to be able to retail it.

Dealerships aren't doing business with other dealerships because they already have enough problems doing business with customers

And let's not talk about leases, which are completely intertwined with the manufacturers so you basically can't work a lease at all.

Essentially, if you have a vehicle on the ground and you have enough internal documents printed with the MSO, you could retail it to somebody who is either paying cash, having their own finances, or have really good credit and money down so you could work the deals the old school way.

On used cars, you can tell through your banking how much you purchased a vehicle for but you can't tell how much you have in it at the moment, but if the vehicle was certified and you printed all your ROs as you're supposed to you could do the work by hand to know how much you own it for and then sell it, as long as the customer meets the above guidelines for a new car..."
 
I would like to add that the industry on the whole does not wish to cause panic and fear and is putting on a brave face by stating that the problem will be resolved by the end of this month and that things will get back to normal very quickly thereafter with lost sales picking up in July. I don't really care for the industry's untrustworthy rosy press releases to assuage concern consumers but YMMV.
 
Thanks for the heads up, Matty.

Had heard about the hack last week, and was glad to learn the dealership I got my Toyota from, wasn't affected, but the ramifications and ripple effects are even bigger than I'd considered.

Hmmm... one thing I HADN'T considered, was the emails about upcoming government auctions on used vehicles. I've rarely ever checked those out because dealerships are usually vying for anything that might be profitable. It sounds like the market might have opened up a tad.

With all the hacker related ransom attacks, you'd THINK that companies would be a little more proactive, but the penny pitchers are always looking for ways to skimp.

These hacker groups are highly skilled and ALWAYS looking for vulnerabilities to exploit. It takes equally skilled individuals to look for, and fix the vulnerabilities first, but noooooo... the Penny pitchers feel that they can save $$$,$$$ a year by eliminating those positions, then wind up costing everyone $$$,$$$,$$$.
 
Appreciate the info Casinostocks Casinostocks . I hadn't heard about this....sucks for me as I have to buy a vehicle this year....
I can't believe how often we hear of hacks, anymore....🤮

This hack and lock down currently affects leases, sales, service and repairs at those dealerships which were using the CDK cloud based storage and software. To a lesser extent, this will also affect those dealerships which networked to do business with the affected dealerships and OEM part suppliers using CDK Global. If your time horizon is to buy/lease something later on this year, it should not affect you in any significant way. For now, it is best to be vigilant about one's credit specially if someone (like me) had bought a vehicle in the past few years at an affected dealership.

Other than the above, since car sales are estimated to be a bit higher than 15% of the GDP (burrowed money or what not) some may see a dip in their 401Ks at some point when the new GDP comes out whenever next. I agree that we will see more of this kind of stuff in the future but if I go into it as to why with my own reasons, things will quickly get poly-dick-all!
 
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