New Collectors - What's Important for me to Know?

total chicken s**t.
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Architect, at least I sign my posts with my name! Standing behind anonymity is total chickenshit!

As for naming names, thats my decision and I m sticking to it. If you want to PM me further, be my guest.

But please use your real name, OK?
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
Architect, at least I sign my posts with my name! Standing behind anonymity is total chickenshit!

But please use your real name, OK?
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So what? I wouldn't know from beans if your real name was John Smith or Pocohontas or Anthony Lombardo - a screen name is a screen name. I use a real email address, so look it up. Various folks use screen names for various reasons, including several of the regulars on the custom forum.


Anthony Lombardo said:
...As for naming names, thats my decision and I m sticking to it. If you want to PM me further, be my guest...
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My opinion still stands. No reason for PM, lots of people have opinions that they pass around on PM and email - all hear say. If you are willing to state a valid opinion, no reason it shouldn't be public. I put my opinion on the line a while back and Neil Ostroff saw fit to refuse to sell me any more knives, but it didn't change my mind. There are a lot of places to buy knives.
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi Possum,

The Gilbreath folder you received was at the infancy of custom tactical folders, hence the $200 price tag. Randall was a much better fixed blade maker than a folder maker. There are some nicer ones out there, but the base model ones are just that.

For point of reference, factories were not making knives like that at the time.

WWG
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Actually, the maker's price at that time for this particular model was $350. (I paid a little more than that from a dealer though.) It was the first time I paid over $200 for an EDC folder. There still aren't many factory offerings with a needle-pointed fully double ground clip point blade, but Benchmade had been making tactical liner locks for a while by then.

By the way, if I had bothered to lightly rap the spine against the heel of my hand, (the dreaded spine whack test :eek: ) I probably would have saved myself an injury. Instead I found out the blade would fold up onto my fingers just by snicking through some errant blades of grass. :mad:

Whether the tactical folder market was in its infancy or not, such a knife never should have left the maker's shop at any price. Especially twice.
 
Hi Possum,

It should not have left the makers shop. The knife should have not been bought and sold by the dealer. Ultimately it is the consumers responsibility to do their homework, even when a market is in its infancy.

Your complaint is the exact reason why I say that dealers have to help new buyers to a degree. I seldom if ever get an inferior product from a maker...why? Because they know it will go back.

Years ago I did business with a very well known tactical folder maker. He sent me I believe 38 knives. I went through them all and sent 36 of them back. With a sheet of paper describing the problems with each of the returned knives.

I then contacted another dealer who sold his knives as well and told him that he can probably expect a call from this maker with several knives to sell. When the maker did contact him the dealer asked if these were the same knives I returned. The maker hung up on him.

Neither of us did business with him again.

I suspect that even with my best effort that those knives found their way into the hands of less knowledgeable collectors.

Hopefully your experiences have improved since.

WWG
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
It should not have left the makers shop. The knife should have not been bought and sold by the dealer. Ultimately it is the consumers responsibility to do their homework, even when a market is in its infancy.
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Yes, to be clear, even though I blame the maker to making that POS, I hold myself fully responsible for not doing my homework & buying the thing. I learned a great deal about folder design from all the mistakes on that one. I still have it as a reminder, laying in pieces on my dresser from the last time it fell apart.
 
Hi Architect,

You have been posting here for a long time and as such have a wealth of knowledge to share. Most who have done business with you know who you are.

I agree with Anthony to a degree that everyone should use there name. When I first joined this forum in 98 I pushed for that. As I really believe that would help cut down and or eliminate on a lot of the troll's, contests of urination, death threats, threats of violence, etc. I have been on the receiving end of some of these "Next Time I See You Im Going To Kick Your Ass". Without exception when we meet face to face (as I show up for my beating) they tell me they were just kidding and apologize.

Anthony, that being said, you can call it CS or BS either way it stinks. If you are going to make a comment as you did you should either back it up with names or not write it.

Your reputation carries too much weight for you to maker unsubstantiated comments. Especially in a thread titled "What collectors should look for".

Crunching numbers adds additional weight to this being B**L S**T. I have owned knives from just about every maker that has built a tactical folder. While I have seen a few that were pretty bad. I have not seen one that was worse than a $100 factory knife (If that is a $100 factory knife, wholesale is $50, super dealers would get the knife for $40. Back out profit, fixed and variable costs and you are looking at a $16 - $18 knife.) As RJ pointed out the materials on his knife cost more than the actual cost of the total $100 factory knife.

WWG
 
I think I'm going to ignore most of the BS of this and get to the point of the thread. There are people reading this hoping to learn something.

What I recommend is get out and talk to people, go to shows, go to knife shops, handle as much as possible, Do your research online and though books and most of all have patience. No one works as hard for your money as you. If someone's trying to convince you to get something they only want your money. If your going to buy from a online dealer call them and talk with them, they can help you with understanding what's going on in the market and help you with getting what you want, but beware restocking fees, high prices and trash talk.

I really like the idea of taking a class if possible. Find a local maker and visit them. You'll find most are very outgoing and can teach you lots.

Lastly, find some people you like and opions you trust. They will help and show you the way when things are dark.

Hope this helps.
 
Crunching numbers adds additional weight to this being B**L S**T. I have owned knives from just about every maker that has built a tactical folder. While I have seen a few that were pretty bad. I have not seen one that was worse than a $100 factory knife (If that is a $100 factory knife, wholesale is $50, super dealers would get the knife for $40. Back out profit, fixed and variable costs and you are looking at a $16 - $18 knife.) As RJ pointed out the materials on his knife cost more than the actual cost of the total $100 factory knife.

WWG
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Les, you have your very educated opinion and I have mine. I would have to submit that you have seen very few recent factory folders if you stand by that statement.

Lets not confuse the consumer. The average $500 tactical folder uses less than $75 worth of materials, just like the average $500 forged bowie.

Obviously factories work on a larger scale of production and therefore their cost of goods is much less. But a fact is a fact.

Most higher end factory knives use similar material to the makers you carry, in fact they buy it from the same places! Halpern G-10 for example. 6Al4V Ti. Crucible steel. all the same. When you buy a tactical folder (Or ANY custom knife, you are buying the manual labor-not the materials).

When you say "worse" than a factory knife what do you mean? If you mean engineering, lock strength, or base materials I would say you are grossly misinformed. In many cases the heat treat is identical (Paul Bos for example).

If you mean custom knives have nicer finish and material selections-that is mostly true. I guess it depends on what your defininition of "worse" means.
 
"What collectors should look for".
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Collectors should look for custom knives that are better than factory knives in most or all aspects. Period. Whether that means better material, design, fit,or finish. That is my first rule of custom knife collecting. Buy the knife first. The maker second. The story last.

Just because something is "custom" or "handmade" doesn't make it better, thats for sure.
 
ptgdvc said:
You are absolutely correct and that is completely reasonable.

I would strongly caution a new collector AGAINST:
asking the maker to make something out of his normal realm. Such as a sword, highly decorated piece or such.

P
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I totally agree Peter. In commissioning a piece the collector should stick to what the maker does best, however it amazes me how some of the top tier makers can make a bowie, folder or sword no matter how plain or embellished without any noticeable difference in quality, fit / finish.
 
If I have confidence in a maker's abilities, I will commision a piece that is outside the maker's comfort zone. Quite a few makers like the chance to expand their boundries, and I like to give them that chance. That is me though, and I never go too crazy. There are limits that I will not go beyond.

It is my opinion that collectors should not ask makers to go outside their area of expertise until they learn what is reasonable to ask a maker to do.
 
Yes Keith, I like to stretch the old comfort zone too.
Though I didn't say, I meant a new collector was probably better off playing it safe with the design.
 
What are your opinions of knives made in a production custom shop. I'm referring to Buck's custom shop. I have a 110 with sambar and ATS34 from the custom shop that I'm taking boar hunting tomorrow.

Do you guys think those knives are actually better than the production line (other than the obviously nicer material)? Do you think they can compare to traditional customs?

Here's a pic, just because ...

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ptgdvc said:
No danger of me lurking at the Green forum and drinking any Green Koolaid! I've been banned! :thumbup: Their Braintrust figured out that when I called the Mickey Burger Ajax custom pry bar of death STUNNING, I wasn't really flattering the knife because of its Krylon spray on camo finish. ;)

P
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I thought cross forum comments like that were frowned upon here

RL
 
The Savage Rabbit said:
What are your opinions of knives made in a production custom shop. I'm referring to Buck's custom shop. I have a 110 with sambar and ATS34 from the custom shop that I'm taking boar hunting tomorrow.
Do you guys think those knives are actually better than the production line (other than the obviously nicer material)? Do you think they can compare to traditional customs?

Jack, though that's a very fine folder I hope you are taking a rifle. Some of the guys around hunt Boars with knives. :eek: However more substantial than that. You may end up doing more pig wrestling than pig sticking :D
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Hi Anthony,

Did you attend the "Bill Clinton" school of word smithing.

Worse:

Inferior finish

Inferior materials

Inferior heat treat

Inferior Field performance. This includes actual use of the knife for what it is designed for. No spine wack tests and only using knives with your bare hands (no Kevlar gloves).

Hope this helps you define worse.

Again, we are talking about he $100 retail factory knife.

Now, here is your chance again to name names. Next you will be saying that factory knives leave a smaller "carbon footprint". :D

Anthony, you are correct those of us who sell and make custom knives feel they are superior to factor knives.

For my part I feel they are superior because I was afforded the opportunity to see factory knives being used in just about every environment you can imagine. They failed every time they were pushed to the extreme. Whereas my custom knives did not. Perhaps I was just lucky with the knives I purchased.

Yes, factory knives have made strides over the last decade due directly to their interaction with custom makers. If the factories did not work with the custom makers and could not utilize the incredibly cheap labor in Taiwan. Do really feel the factory knives would be even close to the custom knives today? I don't think so.

To sum up, Anthony my experience with factory knives showed me they were day in and day out inferior to custom knives. This was through actual use by an Infantryman in the field. I became a custom knife dealer in part because of my experiences using knives. I knew what they were capable of and I knew and that they could be taken to extremes.

WWG
 
In thinking of things I have found to be beneficial to me in buying knives, thought of a couple other things to share:

When ordering a knife never assume the maker knows what you want unless you tell him.
A little too much communication is better than too little. Remember he really wants to delivery what you are expecting.

Even though banks, credit card, rental car, hotels and airlines companies think cash doesn’t exist anymore, I have found that most makers still appreciate it when conducting a deal in person. Some makers aren’t set up to take credit cards (plus they loss about 3% if they are) and personnel checks can be a pain for makers as they will most likely have to deposit them and wait up to 10 days for funds to clear. I'm sure there are other benefits in cash too.

Veteran collectors, are there other tidbits of information to benefit new collectors?
I kind of pictured a document here that new collectors could (edit the bickering out of and) print for future reference.
 
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