New format ABS show

Joss

Joss

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Nov 20, 2001
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This thread is meant to comment on the new format of the ABS Show (aka the Reno show). There's been a couple comments in the Blade report thread.

DWinkler said:
I heard from an ABS show committee member that the Expo would move to San Antonio in 2009. Starting in 2008 (Reno) it will become a drawing style show with a box on each table. If you want a knife you put your name in the box and first drawn has the first right to purchase it. This is going to be optional for the makers but regardless no sales before 11 on Saturday.
Click to expand...

I hate that system. The only reason why I got my two nicest Don Fogg pieces is that I was willing to line up at the door before 8am and be the first guy in the room. The reason the box system works at AKI is that the makers are very limited in number and voted out if they don't produce work at the quality expected. The collectors pay a hefty sum for the privilege of bidding on museum-quality pieces, which also excludes the casual collector interested in a $400 hunter, so the makers know that they have a prequalified customer base.

The ABS show is nowhere near that in terms of average offering (though each year there are a few pieces that definitely qualify). The collectors are also not the same crowd and they need to know how much money they're going to be accountable for.

Maybe a reverse AKI system would be better - one where buyers each put their name in a box or get 1 ticket (1 person, one ticket), and the first name pulled out has the right to buy their #1 choice in the room, then the second name is pulled, etc, etc. That would be similar to the lotteries held by popular makers. Once all the names are pulled and people have made their purchase, it becomes open floor. This would create some excitement.
 
I think the lottery drawings are definetly the wave of the future. The demand for knives by the top makers have made the lottery the only way a collector has a shot at the top knives. Dan mentions that it's optional so makers aren't forced to participate. This format works well at the AKI, the Plaza and will most likely will be introduced to Solvang in 2009.

I like the lottery system, the drawings are exciting as everyone has a terrific chance to score!

Win
 
Hi Win,

I think people are missing something here. At the Blade Show there were approximately 400 custom knife makers at the show. Less than 10 had a drawing.

There is a reason why only 2% of makers attending the show had drawings.

If it is a drawing only show, what about the other 98% of the makers who do not have the huge following. Or more to the point a maker who's knives will not sell immediately in the aftermarket. If they can only sell a knife if there is a name in the box and there are none, what then?

Whether a maker has a drawing or not should be up to them.

The ABS Show no matter where it will be held is not the AKI.

WWG
 
Solvang is going to the drawing system in 2009.

I don't know that I like the new format but it does seem to be the way shows are going and I will do everything I can to help make it work. If my sales don't show an increase similar to what I have been blessed with over the past several years I have other plans for options Karen and I can try. The best thing for me is to not put all my eggs in 1 basket.
 
Actually, I wasn't sure of the ABS's reasoning for a drawing only show. I did note that Dan said it would be optional for the maker, therefore it's just regular show, right?

I was really just responding to Joss, who dislikes that format.
Just opinions.

Win
 
Isn't it always an option for a maker though? I mean I don't think there's a policy in any knife show that prevents a maker from doing a drawing. So if the Reno show is draw box optional, then it's not really a change. If it's draw box only then I think they'll run into problems. Maybe they're saying that they're going to encourage the makers to have lottery drawings.
 
I got on here to announce my hammer in but ran across this thread. The ABS show is NOT a drawing only show. It is completely up to the maker whether he/she want to do a drawing for a knife. I would guess that 90 percent of the knives are available on a first come first serve basis. I may or may not do a drawing but if I do surely it will not be for every knife on my table. There are few, if any, makers that can do that and have multiple names in each box.

The makers that received their contracts and actually read it know this. All of the makers involved in that show should be contacting their customers and telling them what the format really is and not to worry. In fact they should be very excited about the format because they can use the preview hour to really see what's in the room and make a better decision about what they really want to buy. They will not have the feeling of being obligated to buy the first nice piece they see for fear of losing it.

It would be nice if those of you who get on the forums and state facts would be sure that what you are stating are actually facts. If you are unsure of have a question contact a board member.

www.joshsmithknives.com
 
I also don't understand how that review time / 11am sale start thing will work out.

No one has commented on my idea to use a reverse AKI format. People don't like it?
 
Hi Josh,

Easy does it. You may or may not know this. The ABS is not the best at putting out information. Have you looked at the web site lately? Yea I know they are going to fix this.

The drawing only show basically benefits the show promoters (1 day instead of 3 reduces security costs and cost of the room), the top makers and those lucky enough to get a knife from their favorite maker.

The majority of the makers will not benefit from this.

The hot makers are the hot makers...they will always have a line in front of the table.

I think when Phil Lobred started this it was basically to level he playing field for the collectors.

It will be interesting to see how the makers with no slips of paper in their box react to this format.

WWG
 
I have to second what Josh said. According the the show contract the use of the "drawing boxes" is purely voluntary. Makers will not be required to use them.

Concerning the preview/buying hours, I personally like it. The preview on Friday will give the buyers/collectors ample time to review ALL the knives present, make up their minds, and if applicable, place their name in the "drawing box" for whatever strikes their fancy. Friday will also be a day of seminars designed to educate both makers and buyers.

The ABS Reno show has become somewhat stagnate over the past couple of years, and I applaud the ABS Show committee for "stepping out" and changing things for what I believe to be the better. To my knowledge nothing is certain about the move to San Antonio for 2009, but if it does, I will welcome it and look forward to exposing my work to not only regular, but new clients as well.

Within the next week there should be a website dedicated exclusively to the ABS show, and I also intent to build a page on my site for the show. As soon as I'm sure the show web page is up and running, I will be posting links to it from my site.

Not to be rude, but those who moan and complain about the not having enough information need to realize that Rome was not built in a day, and neither is a knife show. As the details are being finalized, the information is being made public. Even the makers who will be attending don't have all the details yet.....but I'm sure we will. Just hang in there.
 
Ed - your point is well received that we shouldn't be whining until we know more. I'm probably guilty of that. On the other hand the feedback / concerns are only useful if they are voiced before the decisions are made.
 
I'm not sure where to start. Let me start by saying I agree with your website assessment. It is in fact stagnant and lacks the information that maybe should have been up there earlier. I know for a fact that they are fixing that and yes it should have been done a while ago.

Second your show promoter stance is far fetched. The show is being redesigned by knife makers. Something that we've never seen in a show. The ABS is nonprofit and saving a few thousand dollars on security is the least of their worries. Granted I'm sure they don't want to loose thousands but I would say they are much different than the average promoter looking to squeeze every penny.

The show is not just one day. All day Friday demonstrations will be held and then the two preview hours will be held that night. That doesn't sound easier but instead more complicated to put on. And if a customer doesn't want to come Friday or can't leave work on a weekday he can fly in early Saturday morning and be at the show before it opens. As it is now we miss out on a lot of potential Sales starting the show on a weekday.

In my opinion the reason for the changes is to provide an atmosphere that feels exciting and upbeat which in turn leads to more sales and a sense of excitement for buyers and sellers.

The changes are not just for the maker. The collectors corner is an opportunity for the collectors to bring their knives and trade with each other or sell them to other collectors. This will provide and opportunity for some collectors to sell knives they may not want anymore and buy more at the show.

The box thing is being blown up. You will see a great number of makers without a box on their table. Of course the makers that have box on their table and get no names are going to be disappointed. That's why you won't see hundreds of these famous "boxes" around the room. The makers such as Harvey Dean that have endless demand for a Bowie knife or Dan Winkler for one of his may choose to put a box on their table to better the odds for one of their collectors getting that knife. A customer should realize that at a normal show he has to choose what table to stand at for his favorite knife. Instead he can use the preview time to walk around and put his name in six boxes such as Hancock, Dean, Fogg, Fuegen, Winkler, and Dunn knowing he might get three of them. Even these guys are not going to have 15 names in each box. The odds should be quite good to get the knives they want. That same customer can in turn take time to walk around and see what everyone else has. This helps everyone.

Let's say for example a Dean customer comes into the preview hour thinking he's going to buy that Bowie from Harvey but knows he has time. But while walking around he happens across my table where he finds a great Bowie knife he didn't even know I made and decides to buy it. Well that just helped me. At any other show he'd have purchased that Dean knife and walked out, happy no doubt, but would have never know I had that knife.

That's how it will help that second tier knife maker. And if a knife maker puts a box out and gets no names it will be disappointing but I don't think it's any more disappointing than packing up on Sunday and still having knives left on your table. It's just a different way of not selling out.

If that maker doesn't want that "embarrassment" then he shouldn't put a box out.

The reason I get pissed off is because instead of asking questions people just start bitching. A lot of good goes on in the forums but it's also a great way for people to take shots and not have to put their name to it. That's why my screen name is Josh Smith.

And yes I take this topic personally becuase it's our show as knife makers. We must defend it!
 
Josh Smith and Ed,

I hope you don't think I have misled anyone about how the ABS show is going to change. As I stated the drawing system is going to be optional, but the show structure with two preview sessions is to accommodate this drawing type of show.

Last year they tried a preview hour and asked makers not to sell before the show opened for buying. This did not work. Many buyers told me when they asked about knives at tables they didn't go to first, the best pieces were always "for an order" and not for sale. I was approached with this by a very good customer who whispered "hold this one for me" Luckily he was first at my table when sales were allowed and I didn't have to deal with a problem.

The drawing system is a good way to hold down early sales and I will participate. My main objection to the new ABS show format is that it does not accommodate the potential new customer there for the Safari Club or Custom Gun and Engravers show. I have picked up a lot of new customers over the past few years from these other shows and this new type ABS show will leave most of them out.

I have a lot of confidence in the ABS Board and the Show committee and will support them the best I can. But, I have to evaluate things and make the best business decisions possible. I would have rather seen the ABS stay with a 3 selling day show, with drawings for the pieces the makers feel are their best work, (published ahead of time to relieve pressure on the makers from customers), and a lot more effort to get the Safari Club members to the Show. But the fact is if you are not going to step up and lead then it is best to follow those you have faith in. I will follow. I am not complaining just stating my opinion.

I also have questions about the "Collectors Corner". I personally think we have a great secondary market set-up with the existing dealer network. I don't sell knives as investments and make this clear to any who ask. If a knife does gain value, then great. If not then I hope the buyer enjoyed it for the full value while he owned the piece. I fear that if a collector brings an old out of date knife to the show to sell and no one is interested he may become disappointed.

There is no room in the custom knife business for negatives. People buy from makers because they want to and love what we do. I try and eliminate as much potential for bad experiences as I can. But again, this “Collectors Corner” is a new area for me and I'll just have to wait and see how it all shakes out.

I was told by 2 committee members that the show was moving to San Antonio in 2009. They did not say this was a secret so I passed the information along.

Josh, Your idea about a reverse drawing is interesting. Karen and I talked about the same thing when we were told about the ABS show changes. I don't know exactly how it would work but it does have merit for further study.

Daniel
 
Hi Josh,

First, for "Non-Profit" reasons it is not a "Makers Show" it is an EXPO. Check with the ABS Attorney for clarification.

Next, I wasn't referring specifically to Reno Expo with regards to the promoter. In Theory no business can transpire on Friday (however impatient collectors willing to pay a premium for a knife are always a temptation). All sales will be conducted on Saturday. Fact is the ABS will not have to pay for insurance and security on Sunday. As someone who has promoted knife shows this money can be significant. So kudos to those in power, they did save the ABS probably several thousand dollars.

Lastly, this is not a "Makers Show". Like so many knife makers you leave out the other part of the equation...the collectors! As knife makers are notorious for not buying knives. The greatest "Maker Show" on planet earth is nothing without the collectors.

Josh its great you are defending the show. However, your energy may be better served talking to the Board of Directors and ask them to think about the collectors who attend the show.

An example of taking the collectors into account would updating the web site with the correct information (dates and times) for the Reno Expo. This would help collectors plan their trip. Since most who attend will have to travel some distance to get there this could be a great help.

I do have to say I like the idea of San Antonio, I would consider attending the show if it moved there.

WWG
 
"I fear that if a collector brings an old out of date knife to the show to sell and no one is interested he may become disappointed."

Ah Daniel-San you gain wisdom.

The after market can be fraught with danger and treachery.

Then again life is full of disappointment. So build a bridge and get over it. :D

Oh one more thing. It has been written here over and over again right here on Blade Forums, that custom knives are not investments..save for the occasional arbitrage!

WWG
Swimming in the deep end of the After Market!
President
Arbitrage Custom Knives.
 
Daniel,

I don't think you mislead anyone. I did see that you stated it was optional.

I respect you a great deal. Your success and years in the business afford you and Karen nothing less than respect.

I too sell knives to customers with the idea that they should not buy as an investment. Gold and Ivory seem to be better investments!! I too am not sure if the collectors corner will help or hurt the show. Some collectors may be disappointed with what they find on the secondary market. I think the collectors may view it as a way of helping them. Seems as though many feel the ABS does nothing for them and maybe this will help with that. I am afraid that some makers sell their knives as investments. Like you I hope that rest of my career will make my knives more valuable but time will only tell. There are so many variables that determine how collectable one will be and most makers knives will not prove to be investments.

As far as the Safari club goes I think the show should have been closer to the Safari Club show from the start. I think the ABS should concentrate on putting on the best possible show for our current collectors while still trying to attract new customers. If it were across the street from the SCI it may have proven to be a larger draw.

San Antonio, if it happens, I think is a good move. I think the attraction of the Alamo, the river walk, and warm weather make it more of a destination for customers. If you don't gamble Reno is such a hole for collectors to visit and bring their wives. I think people need to realize that this move is potential and NOT for sure though it sounds like it MAY work.

These things are all opinion and I hope we can make it work. Like you I want the best possible show. I do feel they are working in the right direction.
 
WWG,

I am aware that it's an Expo and I understand why. I have talked to most board members and all of the Expo committee members and they have the collector in mind.

What you must remember it that these guys are knife makers. They want the customers to be satisfied. This is not a case of just trying to fill tables and hotel rooms, which is generally the case with promoters.

The collectors are being given the best possible chance to buy knives. Generally a great deal of knives are sold to dealers before the customers have had a chance to buy a knife.

I will not talk bad about the dealers because they have helped me a great deal. But why not have a show that gives the customer the chance to get the knives he wants before a dealer does.

I will grant you that the collectors corner may open the eyes of some collectors as to the resale of their knives. But they may also appreciate the chance to sell some of their knives at such a great venue.

I'd like to respect your opinion more and maybe I would if I new who you were but after reading what you have written about the ABS lately it sounds like sour grapes and just someone jabbing at the ABS at every chance.

Come to Reno and then San Antonio and check it out. Give it a chance.
 
I have been to the last few Reno Expos(2005, 2006,2007).

Plan to be there in 2008, 2009 as well, even if it moves to San Antonio.

It's a great show, I have done my usual write-ups on it for those that want to search. Joss was in and out for 2005 after picking up his Fogg, he hates Reno, anyway. Have never really seen Reno, because I don't leave the hotel/convention hall to go anywhere except the strip clubs.:D

First of all, the format of the show doesn't matter that much for the experienced collectors who have been around for a while. You should just be going there to pick up your pre-placed orders anyway.;) Burt Foster will deliver me my annual order at the show, so will others, so even if I am not Johnny on the spot, won't leave empty handed.

Before, you had to pick ONE or TWO makers that you wanted to get from, because prime stuff goes quick, and that is all the time you have. NOW if Dean, Farr, Dunn, Wheeler and Fisk et al, want to put the most sought after work up for lottery, there will be less of a beginning-of-show frenzy, and more of a genteel atmosphere, which is what I think the ABS is going for anyway.

There really is enough for everyone at that show, unlike say, Solvang or the AKI, trust me.

Josh, WWG is Les Robertson, he said that in the "ABS" thread I started. I've known you since you were 14, and it makes me real proud to see how far you have come.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
The last thing I'd like to say is that I have no problem with peoples opinions. I just have a problem when things are said are not true.

This is why I do not participate in the forums. I do not enjoy gossip. I do enjoy a healthy conversation. I do not want to come off as the punk kid in the forums. I respect those of you that have been around. I do however feel I have been around long enough to interject my opinion especially because I stand to gain or lose from what goes on in this knife world. I am full time and have been for five years. I have two kids and a wife. This is how we live. That hardly makes me an expert but it does give me a vested interest.

I think conversation is helpful and gossip is useless.

A collectors association might be a great thing. Collectors could work to promote the knife industry in conjunction with the knife makers. Collectors should be working as hard as knife makers because it is you and your families who stand to gain after the maker is gone.

Collectors should educate themselves my coming to hammer-ins and learning about what they are buying. And knife makers should help them with that by inviting them and opening their doors to these collectors. This is why I invited all of my collectors to attend my hammer in in two weeks. I don't expect many to attend but I hope that changes with time.
 
Josh,

You probably did not intend to get roped into this discussion, but I appreciate your insights. Anyone who has talked with you in person will realize that you as articulate and well thought as you are here. It might be noted that although not a “show” per se, Josh is putting on a hammer-in for the second year this year, that itself has a new and innovative format. It was well thought out, and though it differs from the traditional model, it was very successful last year, and I happen to know it was more financially successful than some fully ABS organized hammer-ins.

As to the show, no one has a crystal ball, and who knows what new ideas will work, and which ones will not. The point is, there are actually new ideas! The Reno show (sorry, Expo) is itself a new idea, and now they are implementing new ideas that have a chance of making the show even better. Every maker out there has new ideas. Some come together nicely, and others make you want to erase your hard drive to purge the memory of some truly bad ones. If we stick to the same tired old formulas, the collectors will get bored. Remember that 20 years ago, a show was the place to get a custom knife. Today with the internet, the makers and show organizers have to work a lot harder to get face time with their customers and if the show is a wild success in ’08, we’d better have some new ideas for ’09 already in the hopper.

And, as a potential taste of things to come for the Expo and for the ABS in general is the new look and the new forthcoming web site for the Expo. For anyone who saw the new postcards for the Expo they nice. I had to look twice to make sure they were really for our show! Larry Feugen’s daughter is the graphic designer, and from the look of it, very talented. The web site is to be modeled after the look of the postcard, and it should look very classy. If the site is well received, it is likely that the ABS site will go that way, I’d guess.
 
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