New format ABS show

Les,

I hate to dignify your comments but I'm going to.

Let me start by saying if your going to print anything out why don't you print out the entire conversation instead of your favorite quote that you'd like to twist. Print anything I write out, if fact print it in "Blade" but why don't you print the entire conversation.

Print this too, don't forget.

You may be very influential in the industry but frankly I'm not scared. The people who know me know what I'm about. This includes reputable dealers such as Larry Connelly of Knife Art and Daniel O'Malley of Blade Gallery. I enjoy my dealing with these guys. They are professional. Someday maybe Dave Harvey will buy a knife from me. See I don't deal with every dealer that comes along. I deal with men like the three listed about because of their respect in the industry. I know my customers will be treated right when dealing with them and they know I will be fair with them. At times I can afford to cut them a deal and at times I can't. I feel they respect that and in turn I don't expect them to buy every knife I make.

I not only welcome dealers at Reno but I encourage them. I know nothing of your conversation with Johnny but I'm guessing it wasn't so one sided. And because one man made you mad you decided not to attend a knife show. That's your choice. Johnny is a collector and a brilliant business man. This is why he's a board member. Maybe you should do a better background check. Oh, and no I don't think you need a table at the show. If you'd like to come buy knives then great. Do you think you need a table at AKI too? Why don't you take on Phil Lobred and the 25 AKI members? Or do you think the ABS members are an easier kill? Phil Lobred and Dave Harvey had vision, and we are trying to steal from some of their wisdom. Hopefully our twist will be successful but instead of bitching about shows they started one.

Your discriminated against? You don't feel like your getting a seat on the ABS Knife Expo bus? I'm quite certain there will be no guards at the door preventing you from handing anyone a check or writing your name down to put in a box. In fact you should practice writing your name fast so you can get your name in more boxes.

You should be happy having the opportunity to come to the ABS Expo and choose from the great knives available for purchase. And we'd be happy to have you, be sure to print that quote too.

And so you've written some articles. That's great. Good for those makers. Good for you. Have you heard of B.R. Hughes? He's written a little too.

And if your going to list some makers why don't I? Here's who is on the Reno Expo Committee. It's about here you listed some guys.

Don Fogg
Harvey Dean
Rick Dunkerley,
Tim Hancock
Larry Fuegen
Steve Dunn

I'm good with them making decisions for our show.

Here's what I'm doing to promote the knife world. I was featured in "Fortune Small Business Magazine" where I talked about the positive knife industry. (Maybe you should send an article to them) Go to http://money.cnn.com and click on Fortune Small Business. Go to the April 1 issue and look for "MY FAVORITE KNIVES." You'll find my article. It even quotes a customer. I think that's outside the knife world. I am being written about for Jumeirah Beach Magazine in Dubai in which I talk about the exciting world of custom knives. I have links from my site to other makers. That way my customers can see the broad knife world. Where are your links on your site? Here's my web address to get me added to your links page, www.joshsmithknives.com

See the problem with your contribution to the knife world by writing in Knives Illustrated, which is a fine magazine, is that those you are writing about already know about the knife world. If I may, I suggest writing something for a magazine that brings in more collectors. Maybe you have and if so I apologize.

I carry myself with dignity and do what I can to answer questions and help educate customers about the knife world. Sure it's a small part and much of it self serving, I'll grant you that. But it is outside the knife community. Come back in 10 years when I'm 36 and ask me again. Maybe by then I will have some more substantial contributions. Oh and don't construe this as if I feel satisfied, but you did ask what I'm doing.

Is that enough? No, but maybe give some suggestions. You sure have lots of questions.

I expect nothing of the ABS organization. Instead I expect more from myself. I don't need the ABS to hold my hand and sell my knives for me. Those who bitch about what the ABS isn't doing for them should take there long extended hand out and point it at themselves. The organization is for the most part run by knife makers on a "VOLENTARY" basis. That's where you do stuff for free, on your own time. They do a great job. And a paid full time board at this point doesn't work. Who's going to retire to be on the ABS board.

Sure the school has it's issues. But as you heard at the ABS Banquet, you were there right, that's being addressed. Maybe they will contact you to help with that. Would you be willing to volunteer your time?

How am I doing?

As to running a show. I heard you ran one. I'd like to come. When is it? Is it Solvang, no, AKI, no, Blade, no, ECCKS, no. What's the name of it?

Les, I'm not an ABS company shill. If I don't agree I'll say it. But I also don't back down. If you think I can be scared off by threatening to quote me then think again. In fact when you do quote me can you include my website address. The one listed above will do.

I don't have a personal problem with you. I don't even know you. But I know you have a lot of questions and not many answers.

I might only be 26 but I've been around for a while watching and listening and I felt compelled to write. And I'm not going to continue this charade on and on and look like a jackass, which might be too late, but I obviously felt the need to defend myself and the ABS. I'm sure I ruffled your feathers a bit and that's o.k. Somebody had to do it.

Have a great night!
 
To Keith and others I called an ABS committee member and it is a first right of refusal. If drawn you have the option to buy or pass. It also sounds as though the boxes will be opened at the end of the preview hour. If this is the case then everyone in the room can still try and buy the knives that had no names in their boxes. This also gives the maker some time make a deal with a customer or dealer.

This member shared with me an experience that happened to him last Reno show. He had a hunter for sale and it was still the preview hour. A man stood at his table for 45 minutes waiting for that knife. But with two minutes to go a man walked up, picked it up and held it until the sales started. He proceeded to buy it. The knife maker felt quite awkward and was unsure how to handle the situation. If the names had been in a box it would have been more fair to each guy.

You see this is really being done for the collector. A three day show would give the maker a better opportunity to sell his knives. The odds say if you stand there long enough the knife will sell.

But instead the collector has a greater chance at the knives he wants in the short selling period.

I hope it works. Time will tell.
 
Les,

Are you really a closet lawyer?

I don't that any of the makers at the ABS show want to keep dealers away. I think dealers basically created this drawing format and thrive because of it. Otherwise it becomes a foot race to get to the tables first and face it, you are not as young as you used to be.

Johnny Perry has his own opinions but he is no longer directing the show so this is a dead issue. I for one hope you come to the ABS show and I bet a lot of others hope you do too. (Even though you have never bought a knife from me, if you are there someday you might.)

Burt and Josh are two Bladesmiths I know that are at least trying to "Market" their work. This attitude has been kind of rare in the knife industry and especially with ABS members. Fortunately this seems to be changing with the younger makers and I for one am glad to see it.

The new show format is just that, new. Some of it will work and some probably wont. I think the show committee will learn and make changes as new information is gathered.

If you or any other dealers out there want an invitation to the show, let me know and I will see to it you get one.

Daniel
 
Josh,

You don't have to dignify my comments. You just have accept responsibility for what you wrote.

Yes, I have heard of BR Hughes, great writer and even a more exceptional person. With regards to writing I will never be in the same class as he.

Point is I have written articles to promote makers in the ABS, I have also done so in Blade. In addition to this I have written other articles in KI and Tactical Knives. As well I am interviewed for a dozen + articles every year.

Its nice that you had an article in Money. I have been a subscriber for 5 years and didn't see the article. Was this just on line?

I have never been to Solvang and Dave did have a few dealers who were set up there. Of course they had their tables taken away for the new format.

I have been invited to the AKI but have not attended. No I don't feel I should have a table at the show. This show is run by Phil, he can do as he lkes. Same for Dave Harvey.

As you pointed out the ABS Show has been run by a different group of individuals every other year or so. It is an organizational show as such any one who is in good standing should be able to have a table.

Or do you feel it is ok to discriminate against particular members of an organization?

As for Johnny, you haven't answered the question. He is not a collector nor maker, so what is his purpose on the Board? Shortly after he announced that dealers could not have a table at the Reno Show, I resigned from the ABS. I had been an associate member for 15 years at that point.

I resigned not for the inability to get a table. It became clear that the ABS had a very narrow focus. Once I was told that a certain customer base was not welcome to participate in the show I realized that the show was already setting itself up for failure.

You ask me about volunteering for the ABS, would you volunteer for an organization that has told you they don't want you?

Again, you didn't answer the question if your dealers are ok with what you wrote in your previous post with regards to the goal of the Reno show is that he dealers do not get what they want. Then you have to ask why I don't attend the show? Surely you are not that dense as to understand why I have never been to that show.

I was not at the ABS Banquet. Do you have a time frame for when they are going to upgrade the School?

Josh, I don't think you are "shill" for the ABS. You are in this full time and feel that the ABS has to a large degree has helped you become a full time maker. You feel a loyalty to the ABS. As such you have adopted the current narrow view of the knife market. Your comment about the goal of the show is to keep the dealers from getting what they want pretty much sums it up.

Oh for the Shows, it was called the Sharp Show. We had two in Atlanta, when we tried to do a third we could not find a hotel that would host the show. They felt that a knife show would bring in a "bad" element. As it turned out with the arrival of the Internet and so many other shows going from 3 days to two or in the case of the Reno Show, 1 day. That the market has spoken.

I suspect in the near future you will see some shows close and others go from 2 days to 1 day. Personally, I would like to see more 1 day shows. The problem is for most shows you have to purchase the room for at least 2 days.

Josh, best of luck to you in the future.

I would appreciate any information about a time table for fixing up the School at Old Washington.

BTW, is the rule for the "hat" still in affect for the 2008 show?

WWG
 
Les,

I have said what I needed to say and I will leave it at that. Sure I don't feel I have a narrow view as I'm sure you don't feel your view is narrow.

If you'd like to know more about the school contact your favorite board member for further details.

And yes the article in Fortune was printed and circulated. You can call and order a copy. They will send you one.

And to dealers. My thoughts about dealers and the Reno show may have been written wrong. The goal of the ABS show is have the best possible show for everyone, not to eliminate dealers. And yes I do feel the dealers respect me. In fact Larry Connelly is thinking about coming to my hammer in in a few weeks and going fishing.

If you have some constructive ideas contact the board or show committee. Your not helping the knife world any by tearing down one of it's great entities.

Thanks Les for the debate. It's been interesting. If anyone has any other questions about the show please email me or any other ABS Expo table holders.


Josh Smith
www.joshsmithknives.com
 
Les and Josh have made some powerful contributions. I knew about Les' skills and passion, but Josh' ambition (I mean that in the most positive sense) and maturity are impressive.

Les - I think you're being dishonest with regard to the Reno show. Dealers are welcome there - I have met them often. But they are welcome as purchasers, not as sellers. As a collector, even though that restricts the volume of knives offered to me, it doesn't bother me, but that's beside the point. There are powerful arguments to be made that this could be a good idea. In any case, to say that sellers are not welcomed is dishonnest.

Les - from one business guy to another, I believe you will never reach your full potential as long as you let your balls speak instead of your considerable brains. I know you are a succesful businessman as it is, and this is great, and I admire you for that, but you could be universally admired and respected. Instead, you seem to constantly make new enemies. The example above and the comment on Josh's article ("Its nice that you had an article in Money. I have been a subscriber for 5 years and didn't see the article. Was this just on line?") are cheap shots that do not dignify you. I have been a vocal supporter of your contribution in many occasions, but your eagerness to fight battles "no hold barred" even at the cost of loosing the opinion war is your own major business & character flaw.

Now to more positive things, I'm excited to read that the commitee has changed, and even more that Don is on it. :D
 
BTW, I think the Reno show has it has been has been the best show ever for a collector of the forged blade. I have acquired more there than at any other show. In the first 3 years of its existence, I bought 2 Don Fogg (Yakuza bowie and short sword), 2 Jason Knight (bowie with MOP escutcheon and wrapped-handle user), and a D. Winkler cowboy bowie I had lusted over for a while. I still have all those pieces (for now!) It already is a great show.
 
Selling a knife to a collector is usually a pleasureable experience for both maker and collector...and makers should strive to promote this...I imagine most makers and collectors feel some joy buying and selling...most dealers on the other hand are in it strictly for the money and the money only...dealers motto "buy low sell high"
so as far as show format is concerned dealers should not have any input whatsoever...
 
I finally took the time to read all the posts on this valuable thread. first off, I am most pleased with the direction and the foresight the ABS seems to be pointing towards. Bravo!

Josh, I am impressed and glad to see you join in these discussions. :thumbup: Your insights and demeanor will secure your future along with your workmanship. Joss described you well. Yes, there are verbal mistakes made on these forums which can frustrate you (and me, and...), but in the end most people learn more than if they had NOT participated. I just did here. The modern world includes the net and forums. I embrace it to secure my future! :D

I found points of view from each maker, dealer, AND collector I agreed with—and disagreed with.

Good discussion. I'd love to be a part of any of these shows someday.

Coop
 
SharpByCoop said:
I finally took the time to read all the posts on this valuable thread. first off, I am most pleased with the direction and the foresight the ABS seems to be pointing towards. Bravo!

Josh, I am impressed and glad to see you join in these discussions. :thumbup: Your insights and demeanor will secure your future along with your workmanship. Joss described you well. Yes, there are verbal mistakes made on these forums which can frustrate you (and me, and...), but in the end most people learn more than if they had NOT participated. I just did here. The modern world includes the net and forums. I embrace it to secure my future! :D

I found points of view from each maker, dealer, AND collector I agreed with—and disagreed with.

Good discussion. I'd love to be a part of any of these shows someday.

Coop
Click to expand...

Couldn’t agree more Coop.

It can get a little rough around here from time to time, however most of the time at the end of the day makers, collectors, dealers and the industry in general are better off by it.

Again, thank you makers for your interaction here as I believe the last few weeks have been very constructive. :thumbup:
 
Joss,

I learned a long time ago you can't please everybody. The same things that bother you about what I write and say are the same things that have others saying "it's about time someone said that."

For the same reason I don't have pictures on my web site of me jumping out of planes or rappelling out of helicopters are smiling while holding my M-21 I had in sniper school, etc. Is the same reason I openly express my often times controversial opinions. When it comes down to it, it is the knife that people want, not the personality of the person selling it. Value, quality, considerable subject matter knowledge and a best in the business trade in policy is why I sell so many knives.

As you say I am willing to enter the fray with a no holds barred style. I'll give you that. The main reason for that is I can't stand the status quo, PC crap that permeates the forums..Oh and lets not forget the posers and the "wanna be who are never gonna be". You want to go toe to toe you better bring, as Tiger Woods calls it you "A Game". Do I make mistakes, yes I do. When it is brought to my attention I will apologize for it. You think I was taking a shot at Josh about his article in Money. That was not my intent, however I can see how that may have been misinterpreted that way. I think it is awesome that Josh got an article in Money, no matter what the media. He should have posted it here and other places. This is a perfect example of something that should have been on the ABS web site. I read about 80% of the business/investment magazines out there. If I missed it, imagine how many others missed it.

In order for custom knives to move to where it should be, that is a collectible weapons and art form with investment potential. A certain amount of facts have to be exposed in order to get this "hobby" moving in that direction.

Joss do you really think if the thread that got a large portion of the ABS board members reading it didn't exist that the meeting on Thursday night before the Blade Show would have gone into the wee hours of the morning? I have been telling ABS types for over 2 years about the web site. It took people getting off their hands and getting upset about it to get the ABS moving with regards to several of the things talked about here.

Joss, I was not dishonest about the Reno Show. My point was, unlike Solvang and AKI which are put on by individuals who reserve the right to run the show however they see fit. An organization that runs a show should not be able to discriminate against its members. Just a reminder for you JS Smiths. The Reno Show was supposed to be an MS Only Show. It is not, only because they could not get enough MS smiths to cover the costs. How do I know this? I was standing next to one of the original promoters of the idea of the show and his wife at the Guild Show years ago. They were talking to a MS maker about the show. When asked if any one could come the response was "No, it is intended for only Master Smiths." Perhaps Josh would have a different take on the show if he was not allowed to set up. Of course dealers are allowed to attend. Who, person for person buys more knives at a show than a dealer?

Speaking of the Guild Show, had you been around in the late 80's and early 90's you would have thought of the Reno Show as a nice little ABS show. Just about any ABS MS or JS you have heard of was attending those shows. Imagine more ABS makers at that show then the Blade Show! The Opryland Show was a hell of a show as well. That is where I first met Don Fogg.

Josh, I would like you to start a thread with that link to Money. I for one would like to read it. Im sure others would as well. Additionally, I think you should submit that to the ABS Website Webmaster to be posted there. This is exactly the type of articles the knife organizations should be trying to get in different magazines.

Supsme,

So you prefer to buy high and sell low? Whether you like it or not dealers are an integral part of every show. Who do you think the first people are the makers seek out on Saturday afternoon, letting them know they didn't sell out? And why do you think that is?

WWG
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
When it comes down to it, it is the knife that people want, not the personality of the person selling it.
WWG
Click to expand...

I would have to disagree , there are a few dealers who's attitudes have turned me off from ever buying a knife from them regardless of the price. In the same way a makers personality and attitude goes a long way into my decision to buy or not buy their knives. All part of the buying experience , which might not come into play for an investment piece , but for something I plan to use , I want to use it with pride.
 
Les,

I have posted a new thread with the link to the Fortune article. I am uncomfortable in doing so because for someone who does not understand the context as to why it was posted may think of me as arrogant. For this reason I directed them back to this thread.

No I will not present my article to the ABS for the website. If they seek it out fine but I do not go out seeking attention. To me it's like chasing down a customer at a knife show to sell him a knife. It's just not professional. You sit at your table and wait. If your good enough you will be found. The ABS has already done enough for me. It has provided a place for me to seek out information and become know through it's tests and affiliation.

Les, every board meeting in Atlanta goes till the wee hours of the night. And you were not the first to mention the website. I know firsthand that has been a topic of discussion and was in the process of being changed before you came along.

If the roles were reversed and I was not allowed into the Reno show because I was a JS instead of MS this what I would to. GET MY MS STAMP!! Put up or shut up. I'm not in the AKI show. Will I be? You're damn right! I'm not in Solvang. Will I be? You bet. Because I'm going to make the knives and do that things that will get me there. I am putting in my time. Learning and gaining respect. And if I don't make it then it was never meant to be. But it won't be because I bitched my whole life without effort.

I know as a dealer you are in a different position. You're not going to be able to gain entry into Reno. But you can come and buy some of the best knives in the world to sell on your site all at one show. That sounds like a good business move.

And Les my final thoughts are this. If you despise the ABS to the level it appears then you should not be worried about what we do. And you probably shouldn't buy ABS knives. If I didn't like something that much I wouldn't represent it on my site. But I know your smarter than that. You need to buy the knives that will make you money and largely those are ABS knives. And I don't begrudge that. That's what you should do. And if the maker is mad at you then he shouldn't have sold it to you at the price he did.

Dealers should be the makers best friend. They are a great way to judge the value and demand for our knives.

I most enjoy selling knives to collectors. I don't begrudge dealers but the satisfaction of selling a knife to a collector because he loves it is the ultimate satisfaction.

Have a nice night.

Josh
 
Les,
What I hope to do is pay a maker a fair price for his knife and hopefully make a decent return on my investment if and when I decide to sell it...My experience has led me to believe that the biggest enemy of knifemakers and collectors are the dealers ...If I buy a knife from a top maker {Hancock, Newton, Dunn etc.} and pay $2000- a dealer will expect to pay $1500 for that knife from that same maker...I understand that...but if I want to sell the same knife to the same dealer the price goes to $1000. How can knifemakers and collectors expect knives to appriciate in value when dealers are treating custom art like they would treat used cars...
 
supsme said:
Les,
...My experience has led me to believe that the biggest enemy of knifemakers and collectors are the dealers ......but if I want to sell the same knife to the same dealer the price goes to $1000. How can knifemakers and collectors expect knives to appriciate in value when dealers are treating custom art like they would treat used cars...
Click to expand...

Supsme,

I'm not Les, and while we are good acquaintances, I don't speak for him.

1. You have parts of it really wrong....sometimes if the market is down, or people are just not buying RIGHT NOW, a dealer can be the difference between a maker starving, or having food on the table.

2. Dealers protect new collectors from themselves, often, educating and steering a collector into the "right" purchase, not the "right now" purchase.

3. Have you ever met custom art dealers? There is nothing similar between an art dealer, a knife dealer, and a used car dealer, except for one person that I know in Florida.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
It is easy for people to get excited, if a knife show tries to change.

Everyone, makers, producers, buyers, and new lookers who want to learn, need to remember one thing.

Making a good show is good for everyone. Sometimes we have to try something new to make it better. If it is not better, for the group at large, it will change again! No one tries to put on a bad show. These changes, are often made by people who have been doing this for years, and want to make things better.

I think there must be a better way, than the fastest person, who got in line at 6:00 AM, and is big enough to knock other people down to gets the best knives, is the best and fairest way. (someone is going to get hurt)

If you think I am kidding, ask to help monitor the line at a show which is first come first serve some time!!

Give it a change, if not better, it will change.

My two cents, Dan
 
I'm looking forward to the changes. I like the one day knife purchases, the collector's corner. Good stuff. :thumbup:
 
I think some of the things being done are going to make far a much improved show. I really like the idea of knives having to stay on the table for a day. My biggest pet peeve about knife shows is getting there early and finding that most of the makers that you wanted to check out are sold out.
 
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