New format ABS show

[Kevin Jones]

As STeven, I really enjoy the Reno show to the point I travel across the country to attend.

Personally, I'm not too crazy about the new format but will support it. Would like to see it go to San Antonio and feel it would prove to be beneficial.

• I feel the Saturday (only) sale and potential drawings may benefit the novice collector who would normally be less likely to acquire one of the better pieces.

• It will obviously benefit the collector who normally misses the opening day on Friday.

• The drawing may not benefit the established collector, who now may have to rely on the luck of the draw to acquire a special piece rather than knowledge, due diligence and determination.

• Many makers may not benefit from the single sales day, as they may have to discount to keep from having pieces left unsold.

• Dealers will definitely not benefit from the new process.

One thing I personally don’t like about the draw process is that collectors will put in or draw for knives they don’t particularly want just for the purpose of re-selling at a profit. Not that I have a problem with making money, however in my opinion, it goes against the spirit of collecting custom knives and it creates unstable price structures for makers. And in my opinion, a stable price structure is better for makers, collectors and the industry long term.

To clarify, I feel collectors should seek to profit or to at lease break even as they sell to adjust their collections, however to buy off a makers table just to turn and profit rubs me the wrong way. I have no problem with dealers doing it as it’s their livelihood.

 

[Durwood]

And in my opinion, a stable price structure is better for makers, collectors and the industry long term.

I disagree with this statement. I believe that the unstable aftermarket is exactly what fuels a lot of custom knife purchases...including many of mine. Most anyone can eventually figure out what a given knife can be bought for from the maker. What it can be sold for, on the other hand, is what many knife enthusiasts find to be an alluring prospect even when they aren't really informed enough to be dabbling in it

 

[Kevin Jones]

I disagree with this statement. I believe that the unstable aftermarket is exactly what fuels a lot of custom knife purchases...including many of mine. Most anyone can eventually figure out what a given knife can be bought for from the maker. What it can be sold for, on the other hand, is what many knife enthusiasts find to be an alluring prospect even when they aren't really informed enough to be dabbling in it

I don't know how a maker's knife being flipped for double what he just sold it for or a collector selling a knife for 60% of what it's worth benefits the custom knife market.
Sales at any cost has run many a business into the ground.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

San Antonio is one of my favorite place to spend a little time, so if the show goes there, I just may decide to make it the first show I will have gone to in years.

I really like the preview idea. One of the main reasons that I would go to a show would be to see knives. The fact that I would get the chance to see every knife (theoretically) brought to the show would be a great incentive for me to go.

Now to my problem. The amount of money that I have at my disposal for knife purchases would limit me to taking enough to purchase one really nice knife. Let's say that I am interested in getting a knife from one of half a dozen makers, and for arguments sake, all six of these makers have draw boxes. If I were to put my name into one of the boxes, I may get the knife, I may not. My chances for getting a knife would be greatly increased if I were to put my name in all six boxes. Now remember, I only have the money for one knife. What happens if my name is drawn from more than one of the boxes? I would feel like a real jerk if I had to tell all but one of the makers that I had already spent all my money. This would probably cause me to put my name into only the draw for the knife that interests me the most. I find that would be incredibly limiting. What I would more likely end up doing would be to look around and purchase from a maker without a draw box, but I would feel a real letdown from not getting a knife from one of the six makers that were the reason that I went all that way.

 

[joshsmith]

Thank you Burt for you compliments.

To Kevin Jones I feel your comments are well thought out and constructive. It may be a bit tougher for the less sought after makers to have the time to sell their knives at the show. For that reason I disagree with your statement about it being bad for dealers. Instead if I were a dealer I would jump at this show. Imagine the motivation at about 3:00 on Saturday when the knife makers know they only have an hour or two left to sell what they brought. It is at this point the dealers might do quite well.

I would hope that these makers are not put in this position but it is a fact of life. There are going to be knives available with little time left in the show.

I appreciate the constructive criticisms of the Expo and can tell you that whether you know it or not the ABS is watching and taking note. Thank you to those of you who give a chance.

The individuals putting this show on are smart and if something doesn't work it will change. Some things won't work and some will. I personally ask you customers to attend this show for two years and make your decision based upon that.

 

[joshsmith]

Keith,

I understand your question but you should put your name in each box. It is completely acceptable to decline a knife. I understand completely your concern and that speaks to your character and conscience but you should not worry at all. If you still felt awkward then you could even tell the maker you can only afford one knife and if drawn twice may have to decline. As a maker I would respect that decision. I would prefer to have you decline the knife than taking it and reselling it for less hurting both you and the maker.

I have never done a box drawing and this is new territory to me as well. Thanks.

Thank you for your question.

 

[Joss]

Now to my problem. The amount of money that I have at my disposal for knife purchases would limit me to taking enough to purchase one really nice knife. Let's say that I am interested in getting a knife from one of half a dozen makers, and for arguments sake, all six of these makers have draw boxes. If I were to put my name into one of the boxes, I may get the knife, I may not. My chances for getting a knife would be greatly increased if I were to put my name in all six boxes. Now remember, I only have the money for one knife. What happens if my name is drawn from more than one of the boxes? I would feel like a real jerk if I had to tell all but one of the makers that I had already spent all my money.

All that putting your name in the box gives you is what is called a "right of first refusal". This is not a commitment to buy. The issue is more, suppose you have 6 knives you're interested in, of which #6 is the one you'd kill for. Your name is pulled from the box for #1 - do you buy and run the risk of being without fund for #6, or risk turning it down?

 

[DWinkler]

Josh, Your idea about a reverse drawing is interesting. Karen and I talked about the same thing when we were told about the ABS show changes. I don't know exactly how it would work but it does have merit for further study.

Sorry, this should have been spelled Joss.

All that putting your name in the box gives you is what is called a "right of first refusal". This is not a commitment to buy. The issue is more, suppose you have 6 knives you're interested in, of which #6 is the one you'd kill for. Your name is pulled from the box for #1 - do you buy and run the risk of being without fund for #6, or risk turning it down?

This is a good question. Would someone that has some experiance here or an answer please address this.

Daniel

 

[Kevin Jones]

Thank you Burt for you compliments.

To Kevin Jones I feel your comments are well thought out and constructive. It may be a bit tougher for the less sought after makers to have the time to sell their knives at the show. For that reason I disagree with your statement about it being bad for dealers. Instead if I were a dealer I would jump at this show. Imagine the motivation at about 3:00 on Saturday when the knife makers know they only have an hour or two left to sell what they brought. It is at this point the dealers might do quite well.

I would hope that these makers are not put in this position but it is a fact of life. There are going to be knives available with little time left in the show.

I appreciate the constructive criticisms of the Expo and can tell you that whether you know it or not the ABS is watching and taking note. Thank you to those of you who give a chance.

The individuals putting this show on are smart and if something doesn't work it will change. Some things won't work and some will. I personally ask you customers to attend this show for two years and make your decision based upon that.

You make a good point Josh, however the dealers want the creme of the crop that's available at the beginning of the show more than what's left at the end.

Thank you ABS makers for your participation in the recent threads. I really think collectors here now have a better understanding of the ABS and the ABS is more aware of the needs and desires of the collectors and relationships have been improved as a result of this constructive interaction.

 

[Joss]

Sorry, this should have been spelled Joss.

Thanks for noticing. Not everyone does.

This is a good question. Would someone that has some experiance here or an answer please address this.

Daniel - I proposed the conundrum, but I know the answer - there's no trick. At AKI, I suppose some people know that they might be spending $5,000 or $15,000 and are OK with it. Others make the hard choices as they happen. The reason why I like my comprehensive drawing system is that whenever you are chosen (the chance of the draw remains) you are at least guaranteed to have access to your top choice among the knives still available. Note that for this to work, people would have to be limited to one entry per person, obviously (which guarantees that nobody gets to get all the key pieces - not really an issue at Reno but still. The other advantage of this system is that it lets the decision of which knife goes first to the collector.

 

[Burt Foster]

You know, we really do need to keep threads like this going. As a maker who's collection of other maker's knives has a grand total of one, I have never professed to understand the mindset of a knife collector.

A lot of makers, me included, make what we make, and we want people to like what we do, and when we're making a full-time living at it, it is beyond necessary that we sell our work, but I think that the future of this industry is intertwined with us as makers understanding what you as collectors want and need. And I'm not talking about designs, or anything like that now, I'm just interrested in the purchasing dynamic.

For years, groups like the ABS have very sucessfully communicated the motivations and attitudes of makers and why we do what we do, in an effort to expand the collector base and to grow appreciation for our work. But I think that far less effort has gone into what goes on in collectors' minds. I know enough collectors to know that some of their minds can be dark, scary places, where brave men fear to tread, but we still need to experience the terror if we are to continue.

Seriously, maybe someone can start a new thread about what motivates a collector to collect. What do you look for in a show? What do you look for in a maker? What would you like to see the industry or the makers do in order to make your experience more enjoyable?

 

[joshsmith]

For the most part the dealers should still be able to get what they want. It's already difficult for them to get the knives they want from the most popular makers because those makers have no reason to discount their knives.

But if it's that busy that the dealers can't get what they want then the goal of the show has been achieved. This means we are getting the customers out of the house, interacting with them more personally, and they are buying knives. Again I think the dealers are a very important entity in the knife world, obviously. But one show where the customer felt empowered would be great.

A leveling of the playing field for the customer is ideal.

 

[joshsmith]

Now Burt this is what I am interested in. As much as I enjoy building a knife I enjoy interacting with my customers. I love the smaller more personal shows where the customer is not walking for miles or in a rush to the next table. The first two hours aside the ABS show has that appeal.

I really enjoy the time getting to know the customer and letting him/her do the same. I feel the more the customer knows about me the more vested in the knife they become. It becomes personal. As long as I have left in the knife world I enjoy the prospect of having these relationships for years.

As many of my customers have found out when we talk on the phone its a low pressure feel. I'm busy as it is and would prefer the customer lead the knife talk.

Instead I love talking golf, hunting, sports, or family with these guys. Some customers are more down to business which is fine. This is why on my website I update my personal and business life.

We as makers would love to hear what you customers enjoy in a show. Give us ideas to take to the ABS for future shows.

Tell us what makes a show worth flying across country for.

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi Josh,

You wrote:

"Instead if I were a dealer I would jump at this show. Imagine the motivation at about 3:00 on Saturday when the knife makers know they only have an hour or two left to sell what they brought. It is at this point the dealers might do quite well."

Spoken like a maker!

What will be left at 3:00 on Saturday will be the left overs. The knives that no one wanted. These knives for the most part are either poorly made and/or over priced.

As with you I do this full time, for the past 12 years with a wife and two daughters. The reason I have been in business full time for as long as I have is that I don't wait for others to finish shopping and then go in for the best of what is left.

This is not to say that there are dealers who don't do this.

The reason I do not attend the Reno show is that at a Board meeting held in Mesquite Texas. Board Member Johnny Perry made it quite clear that dealers were not welcome. Jerry Fisk to his credit stood up and said he thought dealers should attend. Similar to the way the Guild lets dealers have tables with the caveat that they only sell Guild members knives who are in good standing.

Johnny said no. BTW is he a maker or a collector, if neither what is his purpose on the board?

So Johnny is the reason I don't go to the show. How do I know this...I was there. Please never confuse my statements with "gossip". If I write it, it comes directly from me involved in the conversation or another board member.

Josh, can you think of any reason why you would want to discriminate against a group of buyers who have the potential to spend $20,000 to $50,000 at a show? Many of these same dealers would take the knives they purchased in Reno to shows all over the country.

If the makers are in fact running this show they may want to reconsider this position. While it may not cost the top makers any business, that next level of maker may like selling an extra knife or two.

Josh, this dealer who was not allowed to have a table at the show so far this year has written articles in Knives Illustrated on:

JR Cook
Craig Camerer
Brion Tomberlin
John White
Shawn McIntyre
Mike Ruth

Additionally this year there will be articles on:

Harvey Dean
Jerry Fisk
Gordon Graham
Jason Knight
Dan Winkler
Mike Olive

I have conducted business seminars for makers at the Spirit of Steel Show, The Arkansas Custom Knife show and recently the Blade Show.

Im not one of those people who comes on the Internet and complains and then does nothing to improve conditions. I educate, I judge, I design and I put my money where my mouth is. I too want to see the ABS succeed.

Let me know how this compares to what the ABS Board will do to promote/market those who make up their ranks. or Josh, more to the point what are you doing to promote your craft and art? Sounds like you have a hammer in going on soon....what else are you doing?

Burt, same question for you and all the other ABS makers, what you doing to find new collectors and introduce your art to those who do not know about it?

As for the ABS, I know they are a Non-Profit who cannot market anything (except direct sales ABS logo'd merchandise). Josh as a full time maker who makes his living doing this I would think you would expect more from this organization. BTW, you know who pointed out to two of the very prominent board members (who are makers) that the ABS web site did not have an JS Maker info on their web site....yep...me. Josh why does it take me to inform board members of that? Isn't part of being a board member knowing what is going on in the ABS?

I know Greg Neely is going to do what he can to get the web site up to speed. I hope that happens.

Josh, the quickest way to shut me up is fix the mistakes that have plagued the ABS for years.

Next topic....The School at Old Washington. Fortunately OSHA cannot inspect this!

Question, while I understand that the exterior needs to look like something out of the 18th century, does the inside of the shop have to as well?

How often does the equipment get upgraded?

Does the ABS have a plan to amortize their equipment and then get rid of it in lieu of new equipment? If not contact me I have a possible solution.

Burt, excellent point, we can't do business like it was done 20 years ago. I hope you have pointed this out to the board of directors with regards to their antiquated business entity and/or plan.

Josh, Burt, Durwood and Danny, it is good to see you here posting. I know all of you have good ideas.

We may disagree on the approach to take, but ultimately we all want what is best for any and all people interested in custom knives.

WWG

 

[Les Robertson]

Josh,

Are you reading what you are writing?

You wrote:

"But if it's that busy that the dealers can't get what they want then the goal of the show has been achieved."

So your goal for a knife show is to do your best to keep the dealers from getting what they want?

You then wrote:

"I think the dealers are a very important entity in the knife world, obviously."

So you think that dealers are a very important entity in the knife world, however the goal of the show should be to keep them from getting what they want. WOW

You then wrote:

"But one show where the customer felt empowered would be great."

Marketing 101, second day....customers are any and all who will purchase either a product or service from your business.

Dealers...are CUSTOMERS.

Josh do the dealers you work with know that you hope they don't get what they want at a show. And that you don't consider them customers.

I hope you don't mind, Im going to print out your quotes for my next "Business of Custom Knives" Seminar Im going to hand this out to the makers who attend.

WWG

 

[Burt Foster]

What will be left at 3:00 on Saturday will be the left overs. The knives that no one wanted. These knives for the most part are either poorly made and/or over priced.

Now, this is just not true. If a show has huge attendance, then it can be true in some cases. But one-of-a-kind knives, or anything else need not appeal to the masses, but need to appeal to one person. If that one person did not want to fly across the country, or ran out of money before he got to that knife or any other reason, then beautifully made knives are left on tables. As to the price, well, that's where your negotiating skills come in.

The reason I do not attend the Reno show is that at a Board meeting held in Mesquite Texas. Board Member Johnny Perry made it quite clear that dealers were not welcome. Jerry Fisk to his credit stood up and said he thought dealers should attend. Similar to the way the Guild lets dealers have tables with the caveat that they only sell Guild members knives who are in good standing.

Johnny said no. BTW is he a maker or a collector, if neither what is his purpose on the board?

Johnny is a collector. And since when do you let your feelings get hurt so easily? that doesn't sound like you! Or is there another reason you don't come? Maybe you think that the show is well attended and the makers who come will opt to sell their knives at full price directly to the collectors?

Burt, same question for you and all the other ABS makers, what you doing to find new collectors and introduce your art to those who do not know about it?

We all need to have a plan to perpetuate and grow our business. My plan as a maker is different from your plan as a dealer. Both can coexist, but they do not need to be in harmony. They can even be antogonistic, and the industry and the collector still benefit. That's the nature of free enterprise.

Next topic....The School at Old Washington. Fortunately OSHA cannot inspect this!

Question, while I understand that the exterior needs to look like something out of the 18th century, does the inside of the shop have to as well?

How often does the equipment get upgraded?

Does the ABS have a plan to amortize their equipment and then get rid of it in lieu of new equipment? If not contact me I have a possible solution.

This is a new beef. Let's let the free market sort it out. If the school does not meet the needs of the public, then they will seek out other avenues for instruction. A lot of makers still do in-house training one-on-one or in small groups, and the Sierra Forge and Fire school is a first class operation, and I suspect that part of their growing success is a result of this type of complaint. The ABS school is heavily subsidised by the ABS and Texarkana College. The tuition fees do not come close to covering expenses, and I'm sure that's part of the problem. A lot of the equipment was donated by the manufacturers.

Josh, Burt, Durwood and Danny, it is good to see you here posting. I know all of you have good ideas.

Dang, Les, now here we go agreeing on something again!

 

[Burt Foster]

Sorry, I coundn't pass this up.

Marketing 101, second day....customers are any and all who will purchase either a product or service from your business.

Dealers...are CUSTOMERS.

So, dealers are customers. So you come to the show as a "customer" ready to purchase a knife for the same price as the other "customers" in the room? This may be something new that I've not heard before. If something has changed forgive me, but don't you usually operate on the principle that you need a discount from the maker for your business to operate? Do you understand that if a maker operates on a 30% profit margin after materials, supplies, utilities, insurance, and taxes, and you ask for a 30% discount that he has done that knife for free? I know you understand this, I'm just making sure everyone else without an MBA is following along. : )

The fact is, that if a maker can sell all the knives he can make directly to the end consumer for what he believes is a fair price (not a middle-man consumer for essentially nothing), that there is no need for dealers. No need for dealers for that maker in that situation. There have been times when we as makers were happy to make a deal with a dealer for what was essentially a break even proposition for us, because we needed to recoup our expenses on a knife that we believed we could not sell at that time at our original price.

There are lots of reasons why that happens, and that and this is probably way beyond the boundries of this thread, but as Josh said, dealers do serve a purpose - a vital one. Without dealers, it would be much harder at those times to make even a break-even deal and get on with the next knife. Dealers are necessary, and they'll always exist. But you have to be honest that there is a time and a place for the service you offer and as with any service, we may or may not need your service at any one time.

 

[Kohai999]

A lot of makers, me included, make what we make, and we want people to like what we do, and when we're making a full-time living at it, it is beyond necessary that we sell our work, but I think that the future of this industry is intertwined with us as makers understanding what you as collectors want and need. And I'm not talking about designs, or anything like that now, I'm just interrested in the purchasing dynamic.

Well, a lot of it has to do with the knife, obviously.

It generally breaks down into two camps.

1. A fresh take on the classics, that puts a little twist on revered and sought after patterns, maybe with slightly different proportions, stylistic touches or outstanding cleanliness. Makers would include Jerry Fisk, Jim Crowell, Burt Foster, Bailey Bradshaw, Tim Hancock....

2. A unique approach not seen before. Makers would include Dan Farr, Burt Foster, Nick Wheeler, Don Fogg, Larry Fuegen....

You're listed in both camps. You make many top 10 lists. You work quickly, efficiently, are easy to communicate with, and have a wicked sense of humor, take input/direction, and are priced to move. You have a dynamic and compelling website which you update frequently. Your work often sells at a premium on the aftermarket. If there is a problem with something(which happens to everyone, sooner or later), you fix it quickly, without making excuses.

This all makes a difference, everything that I listed matters to an EDUCATED collector to some degree or another.

Communication and a welcoming demeanor at shows is paramount, and you have that too, so do Josh and Daniel.

There are makers that will just simply put you off, at a show, over e-mail, in person. Wal-Mart greeters, they will not be, but someday, when they are doing a job that they really hate because they can't make the bills in knifemaking, they might remember that they were tools(as in Black & Pecker) to the people paying them for their work.

Had a chat with Steve Dunn about a contentious thread here in BladeForums, and he simply said that some guys were too thin skinned, and he just kept his head down, and did the best work that he could. He earned a lot of respect from me on that, and that matters a lot, too.

You don't have to be a collector's best friend, but it helps if they don't hate you. Apparently, D.E. Henry was famous for bad behavior, and that would have been, um, difficult for me, at least.

Your doing fine, Burt, but you will never understand the collector mentality, because you are not a collector. We'll let you know if you get to doing something wrong.

WWG makes some damned good points. Dave Harvey KILLED at the Reno Expo this year.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Thank you ABS makers for your participation in the recent threads. I really think collectors here now have a better understanding of the ABS and the ABS is more aware of the needs and desires of the collectors and relationships have been improved as a result of this constructive interaction.

I agree. I have gained a much better understanding of the ABS because of the effort put forth by the knifemaker members that have taken part in these recent threads. It has shown me that there really is a willingness within the Board and knifemaker members to make the ABS better.

 

[NickWheeler]

I think Josh has articulated himself quite well. I'm glad to know him and call him a friend. I, personally, think he has made many great points in this thread and I welcome his thoughts on future topics.

Les, you did a great job of picking apart what he said, and trying to make him look like a jerk... but you cannot tell me you don't understand what he's saying.

OBVIOUSLY, a maker is going to prefer to sell a knife to an individual collector at full-price, then have to lop off 20-30% for it to go to a dealer. On most of my work, I'd be losing money by cutting off that much (okay, READ ALL of my work).

I do, however, understand that dealers are a great marketing component of a maker's business plan. If you have a knife of mine and display it at Little Rock when I cannot attend.... well that's just that many more people seeing my work PLUS being touted by a professional dealer.

Also, many collectors cannot attend shows, so they look to dealers sites to get what they want.

Dealers are a big part of this craft, there's no denying it.

Les, you're very good at what you do. But have you ever spent hours and hours and HOURS making a knife? Not just simply the time, but the blood, sweat, tears and frustrations that go into making a one of a kind piece and making it as close to perfection as you can?????

I'm asking, I don't know. If you had, I would have a hard time believing that you cannot understand wanting to sell that work at full price. That's really the bottom line.

When you sell a knife to a collector, you have a sense of great accomplishment in selling that piece to someone that genuinely WANTS to hold that knife dear in their collection. When you sell it to a dealer, you send it to someone who wants to make money off of it.

There is a much greater sense of satisfaction in selling it to someone who WANTS it as a collectible. Not from a business standpoint, from a pure, bare-bones, from the heart and soul feeling. Any maker will tell you that.


Back on topic, I think the ideas for the Reno Expo are great. Some of the big ideas that are in the spot-light, are things like an OPTIONAL drawing box. I will opt NOT to have one. I make a solid knife that I believe in, but a following like Fisk, Dean, Hancock, etc., I do NOT HAVE. It would be silly for me to have a drawing box.

San Antonio would be cool. I hate Reno. I have not personally seen ANY sales from SCI. I think if we had a section INSIDE of the SCI show, then we would all make a killing... but that just won't happen (unless we spent about $500,000 for a section that big).

Another venue like San Antonio would be much better in regard to giving show goers lots of things to see AS WELL AS THE SHOW ITSELF.

Just a few thoughts on the matter. I myself am very excited about the future ABS Expos!!! :thumbup:

edited to add... Burt, as always, your well spoken and meaningful posts are much appreciated. You have made many great points that I completely agree with.