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New here- 15 years old. Question about heat treating 1084 in kiln
- Thread starter Keanen
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- Mar 22, 2014
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Not a factor for 1084.
Fe3C dissolves readily.
M3C found in popular steels like 80CrV2 are more stable and may require adjustment to the austenitizing temperature or the microstructure prior to hardening or even both.
So, coarse spheroidizing is not the cause of improper hardening in this specific situation.
That's really cool. I have learned so much from him!
Since you've helped me so much with understanding why my 1084 wasn't hardening, do you have a heat treat recipe you'd suggest? I was thinking 1550 normalize for 10 minutes with a DET anneal at 1380 for a half hour, descending at 672 degrees per hour down to 1200 and austentizing at 1475 for ten minutes. Would that work?
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2014
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I would just skip the cycling in this situation.
Also since you have an Evenheat, might want to look into stainless steels like AEB-L.
Shawn says there is no issues with the 1084 but other makers and heat treaters have said different. Maybe not the case here but something to keep in mind.
Last edited:
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K
Keanen
Some data to keep in mind.
Figure 1. Data from Larrin Thomas shows coarse spheroidizing did not have the same effect on 1084 like it did 80Crv2 due to the mechanism described in my post above.
In Kevin Cashen's 1084 DVD, he shows 1084 has a maximum as quenched hardness of ~65.0 HRC in his testing.
Figure 2. Data from Paul Verhoeven, further details how FeC3 readily dissolves compared M3C. (10100 steel has the same %C but with absence of %Cr)
So, the data and underlaying metallurgy explain why we can rule out coarser spheroidizing as the culprit in this specific situation for why this 1084 is not hardening.
Other factors I shared in the larger post show the direction needed for successful hardening in this situation.
Some data to keep in mind.
Figure 1. Data from Larrin Thomas shows coarse spheroidizing did not have the same effect on 1084 like it did 80Crv2 due to the mechanism described in my post above.
In Kevin Cashen's 1084 DVD, he shows 1084 has a maximum as quenched hardness of ~65.0 HRC in his testing.
Figure 2. Data from Paul Verhoeven, further details how FeC3 readily dissolves compared M3C. (10100 steel has the same %C but with absence of %Cr)
So, the data and underlaying metallurgy explain why we can rule out coarser spheroidizing as the culprit in this specific situation for why this 1084 is not hardening.
Other factors I shared in the larger post show the direction needed for successful hardening in this situation.
Good for you young man........Looking forward to watching you work and grow.....Please consider staying and posting your work and all around progress as a BLADE SMITH.....
There is much valuable information hereabouts the price is right...........
Ok, thank you. I will do that. And yes, I just purchased AEB-L recently and made my mom a chef's knife with it. I really liked working with it!
Thank you for the information. I am asking for Kevin Cashen's DVD for Christmas. Since you don't think that course spheroidizatoin is the problem with the 1084, would it still be worth it to normalize and anneal 80CRV2 or is this just for 1084?K Keanen
Some data to keep in mind.
Figure 1. Data from Larrin Thomas shows coarse spheroidizing did not have the same effect on 1084 like it did 80Crv2 due to the mechanism described in my post above.
In Kevin Cashen's 1084 DVD, he shows 1084 has a maximum as quenched hardness of ~65.0 HRC in his testing.
Figure 2. Data from Paul Verhoeven, further details how FeC3 readily dissolves compared M3C. (10100 steel has the same %C but with absence of %Cr)
So, the data and underlaying metallurgy explain why we can rule out coarser spheroidizing as the culprit in this specific situation for why this 1084 is not hardening.
Other factors I shared in the larger post show the direction needed for successful hardening in this situation.
Thanks! I am sure I'll be posting a lot. I have a LOT of questions. I have learned a lot already.Good for you young man........Looking forward to watching you work and grow.....Please consider staying and posting your work and all around progress as a BLADE SMITH.....
There is much valuable information hereabouts the price is right...........
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 37,944
Keanen - I didn't give you a proper "Welcome to Shop Talk" when you first posted because many great smiths had already joined in welcoming you.
Asking good questions and being polite and listening to the answers is a great attribute, and I commend you on it.
I was forging knives a few years before Hoss (Devin Thomas) was born, but I can tell you that catching his attention is a great compliment to you. (Hoss became a Hall of Famer, and I became a ... moderator
... such is life)
Devin and Larrin have contributed more to modern metallurgical knifemaking than probably any other person, family, or group. Perhaps the only exception is Bladeforums, which people like them make great.
Keep at it and keep us updated on your journey. Post photos of your work and shop setup. Feel free to email or PM me or anyone here to ask direct questions.
Another advantage of the folks here in Shop Talk is their willingness to share. If you are looking for an item or material, ask about it. Chances are someone has a pile of it and will be glad to send you some (or at least tell you where they get it).
I'm in the process of reducing the piles of stuff I have in the shops and forge area. Send me an email and I'll send you a Christmas box of goodies.
Stacy Elliott Apelt, FSA Scot
sapelt@cox.net
Asking good questions and being polite and listening to the answers is a great attribute, and I commend you on it.
I was forging knives a few years before Hoss (Devin Thomas) was born, but I can tell you that catching his attention is a great compliment to you. (Hoss became a Hall of Famer, and I became a ... moderator
... such is life)Devin and Larrin have contributed more to modern metallurgical knifemaking than probably any other person, family, or group. Perhaps the only exception is Bladeforums, which people like them make great.
Keep at it and keep us updated on your journey. Post photos of your work and shop setup. Feel free to email or PM me or anyone here to ask direct questions.
Another advantage of the folks here in Shop Talk is their willingness to share. If you are looking for an item or material, ask about it. Chances are someone has a pile of it and will be glad to send you some (or at least tell you where they get it).
I'm in the process of reducing the piles of stuff I have in the shops and forge area. Send me an email and I'll send you a Christmas box of goodies.
Stacy Elliott Apelt, FSA Scot
sapelt@cox.net
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2014
- Messages
- 5,368
l
Well, we don't have the same problems with hardenability with 80CrV2 like we do with 1084.
However, the carbides in 80CrV2 are more stable. (see post above)
So, NJSB 80Crv2 will need either a higher austenitizing temperature to better dissolve M3C or normalizing and annealing to break down the coarse spheroidizing into finer spheroidizing to make it more ready for hardening.
Without hardness testing it's difficult to rule things out when problems come up and require troubleshooting.
At this point I would recommend trying to keep everything as simple and streamlined as possible.
Keep in mind, the coarse spheroidizing is softer than fine spheroidizing and is excellent for machining and bandsaw cutting however, It's not going to be as ideal for hardening.
So, it's not like the steel is being purposely supplied to be difficult, there are trade-offs.
If guys are buying the steel to forge knives it doesn't matter either way but maybe we get more bandsaw life with the coarser spheroidizing.
For stock removal you can purchase future steel from
Alpha Knife Supply
.
They like to supply the steel ready to harden with finer spheroidizing and they are also good folks to do business with.
In the future when you purchase a hardness tester and surface grinder you can go deeper down the rabbit hole but right now the priority in my opinion should be to keep things simple and streamlined.
Well, we don't have the same problems with hardenability with 80CrV2 like we do with 1084.
However, the carbides in 80CrV2 are more stable. (see post above)
So, NJSB 80Crv2 will need either a higher austenitizing temperature to better dissolve M3C or normalizing and annealing to break down the coarse spheroidizing into finer spheroidizing to make it more ready for hardening.
Without hardness testing it's difficult to rule things out when problems come up and require troubleshooting.
At this point I would recommend trying to keep everything as simple and streamlined as possible.
Keep in mind, the coarse spheroidizing is softer than fine spheroidizing and is excellent for machining and bandsaw cutting however, It's not going to be as ideal for hardening.
So, it's not like the steel is being purposely supplied to be difficult, there are trade-offs.
If guys are buying the steel to forge knives it doesn't matter either way but maybe we get more bandsaw life with the coarser spheroidizing.
For stock removal you can purchase future steel from
Alpha Knife Supply
.They like to supply the steel ready to harden with finer spheroidizing and they are also good folks to do business with.
In the future when you purchase a hardness tester and surface grinder you can go deeper down the rabbit hole but right now the priority in my opinion should be to keep things simple and streamlined.
Thanks welcoming me. Hoss has been really helpful and I have read a lot of Larrin's book, so I feel like I'm getting to know the whole family! I have learned a lot from this post already. I'm sure I will have a lot of questions and will post updates on my knives too.Keanen - I didn't give you a proper "Welcome to Shop Talk" when you first posted because many great smiths had already joined in welcoming you.
Asking good questions and being polite and listening to the answers is a great attribute, and I commend you on it.
I was forging knives a few years before Hoss (Devin Thomas) was born, but I can tell you that catching his attention is a great compliment to you. (Hoss became a Hall of Famer, and I became a ... moderator
Devin and Larrin have contributed more to modern metallurgical knifemaking than probably any other person, family, or group. Perhaps the only exception is Bladeforums, which people like them make great.
Keep at it and keep us updated on your journey. Post photos of your work and shop setup. Feel free to email or PM me or anyone here to ask direct questions.
Another advantage of the folks here in Shop Talk is their willingness to share. If you are looking for an item or material, ask about it. Chances are someone has a pile of it and will be glad to send you some (or at least tell you where they get it).
I'm in the process of reducing the piles of stuff I have in the shops and forge area. Send me an email and I'll send you a Christmas box of goodies.
Stacy Elliott Apelt, FSA Scot
That's good to know about asking for items. I usually just get things for my birthday and Christmas but I'll also check in here next time I need some things.
That's awesome. I am so excited! I don't know how to email you from here. My dad's email is . Is that ok?
Last edited by a moderator:
Richard338
Gold Member
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- May 3, 2005
- Messages
- 7,240
K
Keanen
good luck with everything you're doing. You just posted a family member's email, so I'll caution you and your dad not to send money to anyone based on emails you might receive. There has been a terrible problem on this site recently with scammers searching for emails and then pretending that they are selling an item.
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2015
- Messages
- 487
Good job getting the Evenheat as early as possible. It really changes everything having one, makes learning and growing a lot more convenient.
Stick around here too, lots of great people to help you out and give pointers along the way. I started making knives around the same age as you and joining bladeforums was a HUGE help. And with Larrin’s book too you’ll be set up really well
Stick around here too, lots of great people to help you out and give pointers along the way. I started making knives around the same age as you and joining bladeforums was a HUGE help. And with Larrin’s book too you’ll be set up really well
Oh thanks. I didn't realize that. I'll tell my dad!
Thanks! I used to heat treat out of a forge but I hated getting inconsistent results. I am having a lot of fun with my kiln! I plan on sticking around. I am excited to have people to talk to about knife making. I have a lot of questions and it's hard to find answers. So I am happy to have help here!
Ok that makes sense. So do you think that if I used 1550 as austenitizing temperature that would be good? I will have to try alpha supply next time. Thank you! (and yes, I can't wait to have a hardness tester and surface grinder.. but it's going to be a long time for that! haha!)l
Well, we don't have the same problems with hardenability with 80CrV2 like we do with 1084.
However, the carbides in 80CrV2 are more stable. (see post above)
So, NJSB 80Crv2 will need either a higher austenitizing temperature to better dissolve M3C or normalizing and annealing to break down the coarse spheroidizing into finer spheroidizing to make it more ready for hardening.
Without hardness testing it's difficult to rule things out when problems come up and require troubleshooting.
At this point I would recommend trying to keep everything as simple and streamlined as possible.
Keep in mind, the coarse spheroidizing is softer than fine spheroidizing and is excellent for machining and bandsaw cutting however, It's not going to be as ideal for hardening.
So, it's not like the steel is being purposely supplied to be difficult, there are trade-offs.
If guys are buying the steel to forge knives it doesn't matter either way but maybe we get more bandsaw life with the coarser spheroidizing.
For stock removal you can purchase future steel from
They like to supply the steel ready to harden with finer spheroidizing and they are also good folks to do business with.
In the future when you purchase a hardness tester and surface grinder you can go deeper down the rabbit hole but right now the priority in my opinion should be to keep things simple and streamlined.
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith
ilmarinen - MODERATOR
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2004
- Messages
- 37,944
Keanen, my email was under my name at the bottom of the post. Here it is again - sapelt@cox,net
I started making knives at age 11 ... almost 64 years ago. There was no such thing as a forum, email, cellphones, or the internet. There were no knifemaking books, and almost no knifemakers left in America. People learned by trial and error and you were really lucky if there was a local blacksmith around to give a few pointers. All knife steel was repurposed steel. Few people had any idea exactly what the steel they used was.
For some fun reading, this thread is about how some of us got into knifemaking. A lot of these folks have moved on from Bladeforums (some have moved on to greater rewards):
Here is a bit about my start as a knifemaker:
I started with coal in 1961. I gathered the coal along the RR tracks near my house and made a forge from an old hibachi, a 90° section of stove pipe, and a small circular fan. My anvil was 48" of RR track spiked to a stump, hammer was a ball peen, and tongs were alligator pliers. I self-taught myself how to smith from an 1890 machine shop book my grandfather had. For steel I used rebar, RR spikes, and other chunks of steel I could find in a nearby construction area. It didn't matter if it was good steel as long as I could make an edge on the finished tool/weapon. An old man in the neighborhood gave me a bucket of vintage blacksmith tools and showed me a few things. He said tire-irons were good knife steel. From there on I used an endless supply of tire-irons from a nearby abandoned junkyard. I probably hauled a couple hundred home that year. They were pretty close to W-1. I quenched them in rock salt and rainwater. I welded up a brake drum forge with a home build welder and added an old Champion blower to it ... and I was the village blacksmith. Swords, knives axes, spears, etc. Every kid in the neighborhood was armer to the teeth with knives and swords and tomahawks. We played war in the woods with real swords, knives, and spears. Amazingly, no one ever got hurt! Those woods and my old smithy are under an interstate highway today.
I thought I made a great blade and there was nothing better than tire irons, coal, and brine. But that was then, and I was young.
By my 20's, life, wife, kids, and work got in the way of making knives for a while.
Fast forward to 1998 and I am back to smithing regularly again. I bought a NC Forge Whisper Lowboy, got all my old equipment out of boxes, and started back making knives. I was a goldsmith by then and used much of the skills I had developed to make beautiful knives. I added a Bader B3, and build some more equipment. Improving my skills, education, and equipment hasn't stopped since. I still learn something almost every day.
This time I use the science I had learned since I was a kid and applied it to learning metallurgy and the science behind bladesmithing. I read all the books by the old guys, Hrisoulas, Goddard, Fowler, Boye, etc. It didn't take long to realize that many of these fellows were great knifemakers, but their methods were less than perfect, or just plain outdated. So, I joined the ABS, went to many hammer-ins, learned things from Bill Moran, Batson, Hughes, and the other ABS folks. I went to Ashokan and met Kashen, Roman Landes, Maragni, Zowada, and many more. This group had taken the old skills and updated them into modern methods. With modern equipment, temperature control, better alloys, and better testing it was possible to make a knife of a known material, known hardness, and known properties. Studying geometry and some basic physics taught me how to design a knife to do a task not just good, but very good. I now consider myself a metallurgical bladesmith.
A few shots of me at Ashokan:
I started making knives at age 11 ... almost 64 years ago. There was no such thing as a forum, email, cellphones, or the internet. There were no knifemaking books, and almost no knifemakers left in America. People learned by trial and error and you were really lucky if there was a local blacksmith around to give a few pointers. All knife steel was repurposed steel. Few people had any idea exactly what the steel they used was.
For some fun reading, this thread is about how some of us got into knifemaking. A lot of these folks have moved on from Bladeforums (some have moved on to greater rewards):
Ok, it's so cold here today....I need to here some stories...
What got you interested in becoming a knifemaker?...
What got you interested in becoming a knifemaker?...Here is a bit about my start as a knifemaker:
I started with coal in 1961. I gathered the coal along the RR tracks near my house and made a forge from an old hibachi, a 90° section of stove pipe, and a small circular fan. My anvil was 48" of RR track spiked to a stump, hammer was a ball peen, and tongs were alligator pliers. I self-taught myself how to smith from an 1890 machine shop book my grandfather had. For steel I used rebar, RR spikes, and other chunks of steel I could find in a nearby construction area. It didn't matter if it was good steel as long as I could make an edge on the finished tool/weapon. An old man in the neighborhood gave me a bucket of vintage blacksmith tools and showed me a few things. He said tire-irons were good knife steel. From there on I used an endless supply of tire-irons from a nearby abandoned junkyard. I probably hauled a couple hundred home that year. They were pretty close to W-1. I quenched them in rock salt and rainwater. I welded up a brake drum forge with a home build welder and added an old Champion blower to it ... and I was the village blacksmith. Swords, knives axes, spears, etc. Every kid in the neighborhood was armer to the teeth with knives and swords and tomahawks. We played war in the woods with real swords, knives, and spears. Amazingly, no one ever got hurt! Those woods and my old smithy are under an interstate highway today.
I thought I made a great blade and there was nothing better than tire irons, coal, and brine. But that was then, and I was young.
By my 20's, life, wife, kids, and work got in the way of making knives for a while.
Fast forward to 1998 and I am back to smithing regularly again. I bought a NC Forge Whisper Lowboy, got all my old equipment out of boxes, and started back making knives. I was a goldsmith by then and used much of the skills I had developed to make beautiful knives. I added a Bader B3, and build some more equipment. Improving my skills, education, and equipment hasn't stopped since. I still learn something almost every day.
This time I use the science I had learned since I was a kid and applied it to learning metallurgy and the science behind bladesmithing. I read all the books by the old guys, Hrisoulas, Goddard, Fowler, Boye, etc. It didn't take long to realize that many of these fellows were great knifemakers, but their methods were less than perfect, or just plain outdated. So, I joined the ABS, went to many hammer-ins, learned things from Bill Moran, Batson, Hughes, and the other ABS folks. I went to Ashokan and met Kashen, Roman Landes, Maragni, Zowada, and many more. This group had taken the old skills and updated them into modern methods. With modern equipment, temperature control, better alloys, and better testing it was possible to make a knife of a known material, known hardness, and known properties. Studying geometry and some basic physics taught me how to design a knife to do a task not just good, but very good. I now consider myself a metallurgical bladesmith.
A few shots of me at Ashokan: