New here- 15 years old. Question about heat treating 1084 in kiln

Keanen said:
Ok that makes sense. So do you think that if I used 1550 as austenitizing temperature that would be good? I will have to try alpha supply next time. Thank you! (and yes, I can't wait to have a hardness tester and surface grinder.. but it's going to be a long time for that! haha!)
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1550f for 1084?

No, that's too hot.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Keanen, my email was under my name at the bottom of the post. Here it is again - sapelt@cox,net

I started making knives at age 11 ... almost 64 years ago. There was no such thing as a forum, email, cellphones, or the internet. There were no knifemaking books, and almost no knifemakers left in America. People learned by trial and error and you were really lucky if there was a local blacksmith around to give a few pointers. All knife steel was repurposed steel. Few people had any idea exactly what the steel they used was.

For some fun reading, this thread is about how some of us got into knifemaking. A lot of these folks have moved on from Bladeforums (some have moved on to greater rewards):
Rene E. Roy

Thread 'What got you interested in becoming a knifemaker!'

Ok, it's so cold here today....I need to here some stories...:) What got you interested in becoming a knifemaker?...:D

Here is a bit about my start as a knifemaker:
I started with coal in 1961. I gathered the coal along the RR tracks near my house and made a forge from an old hibachi, a 90° section of stove pipe, and a small circular fan. My anvil was 48" of RR track spiked to a stump, hammer was a ball peen, and tongs were alligator pliers. I self-taught myself how to smith from an 1890 machine shop book my grandfather had. For steel I used rebar, RR spikes, and other chunks of steel I could find in a nearby construction area. It didn't matter if it was good steel as long as I could make an edge on the finished tool/weapon. An old man in the neighborhood gave me a bucket of vintage blacksmith tools and showed me a few things. He said tire-irons were good knife steel. From there on I used an endless supply of tire-irons from a nearby abandoned junkyard. I probably hauled a couple hundred home that year. They were pretty close to W-1. I quenched them in rock salt and rainwater. I welded up a brake drum forge with a home build welder and added an old Champion blower to it ... and I was the village blacksmith. Swords, knives axes, spears, etc. Every kid in the neighborhood was armer to the teeth with knives and swords and tomahawks. We played war in the woods with real swords, knives, and spears. Amazingly, no one ever got hurt! Those woods and my old smithy are under an interstate highway today.
I thought I made a great blade and there was nothing better than tire irons, coal, and brine. But that was then, and I was young.

By my 20's, life, wife, kids, and work got in the way of making knives for a while.

Fast forward to 1998 and I am back to smithing regularly again. I bought a NC Forge Whisper Lowboy, got all my old equipment out of boxes, and started back making knives. I was a goldsmith by then and used much of the skills I had developed to make beautiful knives. I added a Bader B3, and build some more equipment. Improving my skills, education, and equipment hasn't stopped since. I still learn something almost every day.
This time I use the science I had learned since I was a kid and applied it to learning metallurgy and the science behind bladesmithing. I read all the books by the old guys, Hrisoulas, Goddard, Fowler, Boye, etc. It didn't take long to realize that many of these fellows were great knifemakers, but their methods were less than perfect, or just plain outdated. So, I joined the ABS, went to many hammer-ins, learned things from Bill Moran, Batson, Hughes, and the other ABS folks. I went to Ashokan and met Kashen, Roman Landes, Maragni, Zowada, and many more. This group had taken the old skills and updated them into modern methods. With modern equipment, temperature control, better alloys, and better testing it was possible to make a knife of a known material, known hardness, and known properties. Studying geometry and some basic physics taught me how to design a knife to do a task not just good, but very good. I now consider myself a metallurgical bladesmith.

A few shots of me at Ashokan:
View attachment 2718658View attachment 2718664View attachment 2718690
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Wow, I really enjoyed reading about journey as a knife maker. It's so neat to see how far you have come and how you keep learning. I hope I can be like that someday. When I first started, I raided our farm's junk pile and brought every piece of metal home that I could find. My garage was full of barrels on steel but I couldn't figure out what kind of steel it was and it drove me nuts that it could be mild steel. So, I ended up dragging it all back to the farm!

Thanks for sharing your email. I'll send you an email from my dad's email account.
 
For Barron 80CrV2 normalize and DET anneal. The steel should be protected from decarb. 1525°F austenetizing, minimum 10 minute soak.

AKS you don't need the extra steps for setting up microstructure with most of their low alloy except 52100.
 
K Keanen

15:20 in the video.


With very coarse spheroidizing, 1550f would not quite be hot enough to match 1525f with finer spheroidizing. The Bestar data sheet austenitizing ranges would be more accurate for hardening from as received NJSB 80CrV2 without thermal cycling.

Vanadium is at play, so grain growth is limited thanks to some grain boundary pinning.



Notice how even with the smaller spheroidizing in the Jantz material (similar size spheroidizing as AKS) the toughness compared to as received AKS 1525f was not effected by austenitizing from 1580f, hardness was slightly lower but a slower quenchant Parks AAA was used.

So, the higher temperature looks extreme but people forget that the additional alloy will shift the Ac1 higher and the carbides are also more stable.


The KSN cycling did improve the toughness/hardness balance but it will still be 80CrV2 steel.


On a side note, notice how when we use the NJSB 80CrV2 cycling recommendations we have to use 1475f?

Well, that's because it's a pearlite starting condition. (Like the 1084 cycling you did)

You'll also notice in the micrograph for NJSB cycling after hardening that the residual carbides have all been dissolved dropping the wear resistance which may not be ideal for a cutting knife.

So, there's definitely some nuances at play in edge performance even with similar numbers for HRC and Charpy.



Like I have said before, the condition prior to hardening with these SIMPLE carbon steels is extremely important to know so that you avoid getting in these situations where you don't know how to harden a material because you are just assuming the same austenitizing temperature will work for everything.

I'm sharing this information with you so you know how to think, not what to think which is a powerful concept to own at any age.
 
Seedy Lot said:
For Barron 80CrV2 normalize and DET anneal. The steel should be protected from decarb. 1525°F austenetizing, minimum 10 minute soak.

AKS you don't need the extra steps for setting up microstructure with most of their low alloy except 52100.
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Thank you, I will give it a try. I will need to purchase from Alpha next time. Sounds like it's the way to go for this steel. Thanks!
 
Keanen said:
Thank you, I will give it a try. I will need to purchase from Alpha next time. Sounds like it's the way to go for this steel. Thanks!
Click to expand...
I DET anneal 8670, 80CRV2, and 1084. These steels all come in different condition from different suppliers.

Instead of worrying about what steel came from where, and trying to remember multiple heat treat protocols for the same steel, it is easier to include a DET anneal and pick one heat treat protocol.
 
DeadboxHero said:
K Keanen

15:20 in the video.


With very coarse spheroidizing, 1550f would not quite be hot enough to match 1525f with finer spheroidizing. The Bestar data sheet austenitizing ranges would be more accurate for hardening from as received NJSB 80CrV2 without thermal cycling.

Vanadium is at play, so grain growth is limited thanks to some grain boundary pinning.



Notice how even with the smaller spheroidizing in the Jantz material (similar size spheroidizing as AKS) the toughness compared to as received AKS 1525f was not effected by austenitizing from 1580f, hardness was slightly lower but a slower quenchant Parks AAA was used.

So, the higher temperature looks extreme but people forget that the additional alloy will shift the Ac1 higher and the carbides are also more stable.


The KSN cycling did improve the toughness/hardness balance but it will still be 80CrV2 steel.


On a side note, notice how when we use the NJSB 80CrV2 cycling recommendations we have to use 1475f?

Well, that's because it's a pearlite starting condition. (Like the 1084 cycling you did)

You'll also notice in the micrograph for NJSB cycling after hardening that the residual carbides have all been dissolved dropping the wear resistance which may not be ideal for a cutting knife.

So, there's definitely some nuances at play in edge performance even with similar numbers for HRC and Charpy.



Like I have said before, the condition prior to hardening with these SIMPLE carbon steels is extremely important to know so that you avoid getting in these situations where you don't know how to harden a material because you are just assuming the same austenitizing temperature will work for everything.

I'm sharing this information with you so you know how to think, not what to think which is a powerful concept to own at any age.
Click to expand...
Wow, thanks so much for all the information. I really appreciate that you're taking the time to teach me. I have read the article and watched the video. So I think I understand, but I want to make sure. Since NJSB has course spheroidizing I'll need to use the higher austenitizing temperature at 1580 or normalize and do a DET anneal? I am understanding what you mean by the starting condition of the steel being so important. I hadn't realized it was so important before.

One more question, when you said, "The KSN cycling did improve the toughness/hardness balance but it will still be 80CrV2 steel," what did you mean by it STILL being 80CRV2?

Thanks again for helping me.
 
Cypress Creek Knives said:
I DET anneal 8670, 80CRV2, and 1084. These steels all come in different condition from different suppliers.

Instead of worrying about what steel came from where, and trying to remember multiple heat treat protocols for the same steel, it is easier to include a DET anneal and pick one heat treat protocol.
Click to expand...
Ok, that makes sense. When you said that you pick one heat heat treat protocol for all the steels do you mean you do the same austenitizing temperatures for all the different kinds of steel or just one heat treat per type of steel?
 
Keanen said:
Ok, that makes sense. When you said that you pick one heat heat treat protocol for all the steels do you mean you do the same austenitizing temperatures for all the different kinds of steel or just one heat treat per type of steel?
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One heat treat protocol for each steel type.

I use 1525 for 8670 and 80CRV2
1475 for 1084
 
Keanen said:
Wow, thanks so much for all the information. I really appreciate that you're taking the time to teach me.
Click to expand...

Np.

Keanen said:
I have read the article and watched the video. So I think I understand, but I want to make sure. Since NJSB has course spheroidizing I'll need to use the higher austenitizing temperature at 1580 or normalize and do a DET anneal?
Click to expand...

Nailed it.

Strong work.

Keanen said:
I am understanding what you mean by the starting condition of the steel being so important. I hadn't realized it was so important before.
Click to expand...

Bingo.


Keanen said:
One more question, when you said, "The KSN cycling did improve the toughness/hardness balance but it will still be 80CrV2 steel," what did you mean by it STILL being 80CRV2?
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Well, we can't heat treat it into AEB-L:p

Keanen said:
Thanks again for helping me.
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No biggie, excited to see the knives.
 
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