New, is it original Phrobis or build out?

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DeSotoSky said:
You think??? You and Makael are the two highest posters on this forum, 79 and 81 posts respectively this month alone.... I'm way behind at 51 with this post.... yeah, I know I said I wouldn't post any more on this....

Just to get back on track and get some Buck knife related content. It does not have a Dolphin and I don't normally buy this type of knife but here is a Phrobis designed Buckmaster I found at a flea market (for cheap). It has a double bevel done on a benchgrinder. I wonder if buck could spiff it up and fix the edge if I sent it in for a spa treatment.
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Im sure they would. Im happy to take it in. Takes about 10 min then back out the door.
 
Had a great time camping. Hope everyone had a great weekend.
 
View attachment 717751 I have some observations that might shed some light on the prototype, build out, factory original controversy. The 50? prototypes were machined from bar stock and lack the shrink marks associated with casting (see post 42). All of the prototypes had belt clips attached to the left scale. These machined left scales lacked the stepped edge found on the early [fat (1/2" thick)] 560's. The production 186's also lacked a stepped edge on the butt of the left scale (see photo).
So the prototypes and the 186's had the square handle edge under the clip. The early 560's and all the build outs had the stepped edge on the butt of the left handle.
The start up cost of making cast counterfeits would be prohibitive. The cost of machining fake prototypes would also be off the chart. The thing I am puzzled about is the Phrobis markings. They are all over the place: handles, blades, butt caps, belt clips, etc. I think somebody has a Phrobis electro etching device. All of the Phrobis marked parts on the 110 format knives that I have seen, involve the early 560 stepped edge models. The Phrobis marked belt clip was probably on a prototype, but if in doubt, check the inside of the handle for shrink marks. The later 560 (7/16" thick) chamfered edge models don't seem to show up in the build outs.
In the photo below, I have replaced the rivets in 560 handle with cap screws, but you can still see the shape of the handle's edge where a belt clip doesn't belong.
 
Ti Guy, The pocket clip that you speak of is part of the 186 and approx. 16,700 were produced without a stepped edge. Next came the riveted 560's that have the stepped edge. I measured mine and yes there are 2 thicknesses .5 (1/2 inch) and .437 (7/16 inch) which I did not know about both riveted. I do have take apart models with the phrobis dolphin on the belt clip so they were not only on the prototypes. I have never seen a chamfered edge 186 or 560.
 
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View attachment 717868 Somehow cast production parts are getting marked "Phrobis". So you can't tell a prototype from a build out using the Phrobis mark. You can tell the prototypes from the 186's by taking them apart and looking for shrink marks left over from the molding operation.
It looks like the build outs are based on old 560's using non-standard blades. The picture shows the 3 styles of cast handles. I would show a prototype handle if I had one.
I think the clip was designed to carry the 186 outside the belt on the right hand side. If it were a pocket clip, the knife would carry in the left front pocket.
 
MICHAEL5135 has a prototype so maybe he can provide us with some pictures of his for comparison.
 
What do you consider a prototype? I have 186 take apart Phrobis's that looks like the straight (fat) without the pocket clip and is a take apart.(Mine has the pocket clip.) I also have a 1/2 inch riveted and a 7/16 inch riveted. What I believe are the prototypes are the 50 Ti-Masters that were numbered. I'll post pics but I need to know which knife you would like to see. I am also in belief that somehow the dolphin is being put on titanium handles not intended for that and are new or "buildouts". I spoke with Joe Houser and he said yes the Dolphin was put on after the fact and wishes it was never done and sounded like it would stop. Someone is going overboard putting the emblem on every part of the knife. I don't have any with the crystalline look.
 
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Sorry Michael, I was meaning the numbered Ti-Master. If you have one please post a picture for us for comparison.
 
The newer 560's came in 4 finishes as I remember it: raw Titanium, Silver frost, Gold frost, and black paint. The black model also had a black blade.
 
Ti Master and COA with some info on it. There are hardly any buildouts out there. Maybe someone has a list of build outs that show how many made it market.

 
The crisp chamfering around the lightening holes leads me to believe that these pictures are of the original machined prototypes (Masters). The holes did more than lighten the handles on the cast parts. They reduced the amount of material that had to cool without leaving shrink marks. I don't think that any of the build outs had belt clips. I also don't think that any of the build outs had 420 HC blades. Let me know if I am all wet.
 
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