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New Orleans, the shame of America
- Thread starter DannyinJapan
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2005
- Messages
- 19,791
The_Shadow said:
Hm. Here is the post in question in its entirety.
The_Shadow said:
Sounds like you stereotyped me as an ignorant racist southern redneck to me. Did I read the line about ndn's wrong? Sound like an accusation of racism to you Yvsa? I got offended and demanded an apology. In the following post you admit calling me a racist AND apologize.
The_Shadow said:
Then you deny the offense it to Munk. Well I had accepted the apology, but this denial is a LIE. Over the past two days I have been called silly names, without an apology by Soupah. Then today you perpetrate this attack, and after being directly asked, apologized. Subsequently denying the offense in a blatant LIE. I give up. I guess Nasty is right. The class of person who hangs out here is not of the caliber it used to be and there can be no civil political discussions here anymore. I will note that in this thread I did not attack anyone. I did not call anyone out. Not even after attacked by the two forumites named above.
The_Shadow said:
Shadow, don't worry- I didn't call Andy (specifically) a chickenhawk either. But some see a garment on display and claim it's cut to fit them.
(where's Stilgar on the boards when you need him? That's a line from Dune that I've always liked)
Sorry you've gotten the short end of the stick, Nasty. There's been a lot of angry people around lately. Humidity?
Munk, thanks for the kind words you've written here and there. I feel we resolved things the "right" way.
Broken H- I think you're speaking very well. I'd hoped my last post might interest you- not the firing back. Later then.
::::::::::::::::::::::
Bladite-
Saddam may like being a dictator, but he was going to lose it all if he did not allow inspections. He did not. Why not? Not just; "because' he didn't wanna. quotes mine.
Saddam was misunderstood and didn't want his neighbors to know how 'weak' he was-even though he still had enough parity to put off any reasonable threat? How many armed men did he have? A million? 3? That's right, he'd lost a lot of it-and a lot of hardware; but had more than enough for that region of the world. You mentioned how pathetically weak the old poisen warheads were- probably true enough. ( though if you want to be legalistic- that's it, that's enough. The cops will still take me to jail for one cartridge in my pocket if I'm in a Federal building.) But do you know we found missiles and other large equipment materials with recent French dating- in violation of the arms embargo? We can legally invade. Soverign nation? Why did 'we' go into Bosnia? Haiti? Panama, Somalia? Nuclear terrorsim is a not a exercise in legalism. But we did respect soverignty- Iraq violated the terms of surrender of the first Gulf War, and UN ultimateums. We had every legal right to go in there.
In fact, we did not have to wait for the UN. A nation that invaded Quwait. murders it's own people, and violates the terms of surrender with us has lost, 'that soverign right' of borders. Period.
Why would Bush lie? Let's say all the intelligence agencies were wrong, but he, Bush knew the truth: no WMD. What possible logic would there be in marching into a potential deadly encounter only to end up with egg on his face? You think his master plan was to be so publically humiliated his own party would start losing elections and his 'legacy' ruined?
We can buy oil. We did not and do not need Iraq.
Many then say: Why didn't we look at Iran? Iran is the real problem. Because Iran had not 'done' enough for us to invade- that would have been a true invasion. And why should we? Iran has a large middle class just waiting to lose their religious leaders. If Iraq goes democratic, what do you think the effect on Iran's middle class is going to be?
Every point is illogical- but I still hear this mantra from the UN, from France and Germany, and France West- Canada, and from too many here in home that, Bush Lied, Saddam Cried, We did it for OIL and Apple Pie.
Wonder why Tony Blair went along with all this? He dislikes Bush's politics. He's the liberal. He must have lied too.
Fact is, the entire earth is 'in' on the conspiracy with the exception of those who say Bush Lied. They don't know the real score, see, we never cut them into the gravy of our master plan.
I think invading Iraq was a pretty savy, calculated, master move. That's right.
I had a lot of misgivings, and still do, but the more I air the issue with the dissent, the more I see that Rice and Bush were smart.
Bladite- the one thing I hear from you that I respect enormously is just your frustration in what you consider an unjust war, and wanting your America to walk a little higher. I do understand that.
If it helps at all, just remember our number one critic on this war, France, was bought out, busy cheating the UN and the people of Iraq, and lied.
They really did lie.
I think that makes the US still pretty special. We put our men and our faith on the line.
I think we are still the heros of this world. You or I will never approve of all of our government's actions.
:::::::::::::::::::::
Bladite, I don't recall what your politics are, so I won't think of you as a liberal unless you tell me you are one.
But if one good thing came out of my debating the Left on this issue, it is that here at least, I get to meet heavily armed liberals like Hollow, and that's good for our Constitution.
munk
::::::::::::::::::::::
Bladite-
Saddam may like being a dictator, but he was going to lose it all if he did not allow inspections. He did not. Why not? Not just; "because' he didn't wanna. quotes mine.
Saddam was misunderstood and didn't want his neighbors to know how 'weak' he was-even though he still had enough parity to put off any reasonable threat? How many armed men did he have? A million? 3? That's right, he'd lost a lot of it-and a lot of hardware; but had more than enough for that region of the world. You mentioned how pathetically weak the old poisen warheads were- probably true enough. ( though if you want to be legalistic- that's it, that's enough. The cops will still take me to jail for one cartridge in my pocket if I'm in a Federal building.) But do you know we found missiles and other large equipment materials with recent French dating- in violation of the arms embargo? We can legally invade. Soverign nation? Why did 'we' go into Bosnia? Haiti? Panama, Somalia? Nuclear terrorsim is a not a exercise in legalism. But we did respect soverignty- Iraq violated the terms of surrender of the first Gulf War, and UN ultimateums. We had every legal right to go in there.
In fact, we did not have to wait for the UN. A nation that invaded Quwait. murders it's own people, and violates the terms of surrender with us has lost, 'that soverign right' of borders. Period.
Why would Bush lie? Let's say all the intelligence agencies were wrong, but he, Bush knew the truth: no WMD. What possible logic would there be in marching into a potential deadly encounter only to end up with egg on his face? You think his master plan was to be so publically humiliated his own party would start losing elections and his 'legacy' ruined?
We can buy oil. We did not and do not need Iraq.
Many then say: Why didn't we look at Iran? Iran is the real problem. Because Iran had not 'done' enough for us to invade- that would have been a true invasion. And why should we? Iran has a large middle class just waiting to lose their religious leaders. If Iraq goes democratic, what do you think the effect on Iran's middle class is going to be?
Every point is illogical- but I still hear this mantra from the UN, from France and Germany, and France West- Canada, and from too many here in home that, Bush Lied, Saddam Cried, We did it for OIL and Apple Pie.
Wonder why Tony Blair went along with all this? He dislikes Bush's politics. He's the liberal. He must have lied too.
Fact is, the entire earth is 'in' on the conspiracy with the exception of those who say Bush Lied. They don't know the real score, see, we never cut them into the gravy of our master plan.
I think invading Iraq was a pretty savy, calculated, master move. That's right.
I had a lot of misgivings, and still do, but the more I air the issue with the dissent, the more I see that Rice and Bush were smart.
Bladite- the one thing I hear from you that I respect enormously is just your frustration in what you consider an unjust war, and wanting your America to walk a little higher. I do understand that.
If it helps at all, just remember our number one critic on this war, France, was bought out, busy cheating the UN and the people of Iraq, and lied.
They really did lie.
I think that makes the US still pretty special. We put our men and our faith on the line.
I think we are still the heros of this world. You or I will never approve of all of our government's actions.
:::::::::::::::::::::
Bladite, I don't recall what your politics are, so I won't think of you as a liberal unless you tell me you are one.
But if one good thing came out of my debating the Left on this issue, it is that here at least, I get to meet heavily armed liberals like Hollow, and that's good for our Constitution.
munk
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2006
- Messages
- 311
munk said:
It did, munk. I was just making sure that the hatchet, if there ever was one, was good and buried before getting back into the issue of New Orleans' reconstruction.
I would love to discuss it further -- I just wanted to make sure all was on the bubble first. I will have to give it a little further time later, maybe another thread altogether?
eBroken H.
No hatchet. And if I overstep, it's pretty easy to remind me and I'll restore my common sense, (and courtesy) lickety split.
I'd be curious to your reaction to what I just wrote about Iraq to Bladite.
And poverty in general- think of something, anything. We've tried to 'help' for a long time now, and it seems to get worse. Ever live near a project or in Gangland? I have. I actually was a 'liberal' then. I saw first hand our best solutions were not working. Still don't know what to do.
I'd really like to sink the whole bundle in education. But look at that- more money spent per capita than ever, and worse results. We've a mini culture of anger and bitterness, and 'studying' books is derided in those communities.
Know what the most successful indians do on the Res? They leave. That's right- the best and brightest, those who would give the examples so needed. Why? My friend Charlie Bear, "munk, it's like crabs in a bucket. If you start to get ahead, you'll be pulled back down. (by your own people) So they leave.
I'd like to boost education- but how? Spend more money doesn't work. We tried to experiment with school vouchers- to force schools to compete, and give inner city parents the right to find a better school. What happened? Shot down by the new status quo- the Democratic party.
I didn't always hold Demorats in low regard, but I've lived long enough to see the culture change, and they now are against any good idea. Do they have any ideas? They are running on- Bush lied, or we are the Un-Bush.
I never, never thought I'd live long enough to see what used to be a stagnent and moribund party, the Republicans, become the party of ideas. What a shock.
I may have grown up a hippie, but I go to where the ideas are- the hope for change.
So, I dunno nuttin.
I'm a libertarian, but even they are crazy. Unilaterly open up our borders?
I'm against the war on drugs. I would legalize most of them and let the people take their chances. I remember what Maxine Waters said after the LA riots, caling them a civil protest, btw. She pressured the City of LA not to restore liquor licenses in the affected communities. Poor Korean grociers worked all their lives- it's their America too, after all. Why? Because it was unfair to black men, who would then be presumably unable to resist going in, buying booze, and sitting outside in the parking lot on couches. I'm not kidding.
Now- with moral majority side of the Republicans against legalisation, adn the leftist side of the Democrats against, what hope for change?
(The democrats won't allow legal drugs for those black men, who will be unable to resist, right?)
I could go on and on- we all have a litnany, a sort of existential black humor story of, 'the way things are'.
In a strange way, I get a kick out of those parts of America no longer adhering to the law- all the little Beruits (sic) we have. I actually admire the peace of those black men sitting in couches drinking in the open. If you understand what I mean. What are the cops gonna do? Haul them in? Why? What do they have left to loose?
There were entire streets of houses in Fontana Ca burned, deserted, a dead zone. You'd turn the corner and be in a Strange Land. I mean blocks of houses.
To be fair to Maxine Waters, it's not just black men who can't be trusted; all those Korean grociers who stayed by their shops armed kept their shops; all those who left, or listened to the Police that it was OK now, and put away your arms, had their building burnt to the ground. Maxine figures those guns are bad too, and has helped Ca to get rid of as many models as possible.
We are all dependents, see- that is how she grew up in her culture. Now, what are going to do about New Orleans, with the same thinking? They took the guns away from those staying. I can just hear them now asking for more money.
What can we do about dependency?
munk
No hatchet. And if I overstep, it's pretty easy to remind me and I'll restore my common sense, (and courtesy) lickety split.
I'd be curious to your reaction to what I just wrote about Iraq to Bladite.
And poverty in general- think of something, anything. We've tried to 'help' for a long time now, and it seems to get worse. Ever live near a project or in Gangland? I have. I actually was a 'liberal' then. I saw first hand our best solutions were not working. Still don't know what to do.
I'd really like to sink the whole bundle in education. But look at that- more money spent per capita than ever, and worse results. We've a mini culture of anger and bitterness, and 'studying' books is derided in those communities.
Know what the most successful indians do on the Res? They leave. That's right- the best and brightest, those who would give the examples so needed. Why? My friend Charlie Bear, "munk, it's like crabs in a bucket. If you start to get ahead, you'll be pulled back down. (by your own people) So they leave.
I'd like to boost education- but how? Spend more money doesn't work. We tried to experiment with school vouchers- to force schools to compete, and give inner city parents the right to find a better school. What happened? Shot down by the new status quo- the Democratic party.
I didn't always hold Demorats in low regard, but I've lived long enough to see the culture change, and they now are against any good idea. Do they have any ideas? They are running on- Bush lied, or we are the Un-Bush.
I never, never thought I'd live long enough to see what used to be a stagnent and moribund party, the Republicans, become the party of ideas. What a shock.
I may have grown up a hippie, but I go to where the ideas are- the hope for change.
So, I dunno nuttin.
I'm a libertarian, but even they are crazy. Unilaterly open up our borders?
I'm against the war on drugs. I would legalize most of them and let the people take their chances. I remember what Maxine Waters said after the LA riots, caling them a civil protest, btw. She pressured the City of LA not to restore liquor licenses in the affected communities. Poor Korean grociers worked all their lives- it's their America too, after all. Why? Because it was unfair to black men, who would then be presumably unable to resist going in, buying booze, and sitting outside in the parking lot on couches. I'm not kidding.
Now- with moral majority side of the Republicans against legalisation, adn the leftist side of the Democrats against, what hope for change?
(The democrats won't allow legal drugs for those black men, who will be unable to resist, right?)
I could go on and on- we all have a litnany, a sort of existential black humor story of, 'the way things are'.
In a strange way, I get a kick out of those parts of America no longer adhering to the law- all the little Beruits (sic) we have. I actually admire the peace of those black men sitting in couches drinking in the open. If you understand what I mean. What are the cops gonna do? Haul them in? Why? What do they have left to loose?
There were entire streets of houses in Fontana Ca burned, deserted, a dead zone. You'd turn the corner and be in a Strange Land. I mean blocks of houses.
To be fair to Maxine Waters, it's not just black men who can't be trusted; all those Korean grociers who stayed by their shops armed kept their shops; all those who left, or listened to the Police that it was OK now, and put away your arms, had their building burnt to the ground. Maxine figures those guns are bad too, and has helped Ca to get rid of as many models as possible.
We are all dependents, see- that is how she grew up in her culture. Now, what are going to do about New Orleans, with the same thinking? They took the guns away from those staying. I can just hear them now asking for more money.
What can we do about dependency?
munk
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2003
- Messages
- 19,854
one thing i'll say...
my party line is apparently "independent" or "other" on the old voting form... because i'm not a republican and i'm not a democrat. i don't know what those *mean* actually. i'm not a liberal. that's another label i can't define. so i'm not one of those. i'm not a hippie greenie, or anything else you can easily box.
really, i'm a bit of my own self formed opinions. i believe in the constitution, and what it says, and really not nitpicking what it means. it's pretty clear what i means in broad cuts. i believe in the laws. i believe we should be able to change the laws and vote as a country.
i do not believe or like the way these things are handled. the various voting systems, and blocks, and indulgences, and electoral college, and all that other crap is a dilution and perversion. it's bullshit i say. there doesn't seem to be a real way to have the power of the people mean anything. wait 4 years or 8 and it's turned around and around. that's crap. i'm certainly for less government involvment, rules, and interference.
what i am is something of a patriot. i still believe in this country, and in people, and hope that the right thing will happen, but not my hook or by crook. our founding fathers are surely spinning in their graves lately. i certainly didn't vote for anyone currently in power, and wish they would have the grace to step down and let someone try. god help us the next
presidentials.
so, i don't know what that makes me, but "none of the above" is a good start.
bladite
my party line is apparently "independent" or "other" on the old voting form... because i'm not a republican and i'm not a democrat. i don't know what those *mean* actually. i'm not a liberal. that's another label i can't define. so i'm not one of those. i'm not a hippie greenie, or anything else you can easily box.
really, i'm a bit of my own self formed opinions. i believe in the constitution, and what it says, and really not nitpicking what it means. it's pretty clear what i means in broad cuts. i believe in the laws. i believe we should be able to change the laws and vote as a country.
i do not believe or like the way these things are handled. the various voting systems, and blocks, and indulgences, and electoral college, and all that other crap is a dilution and perversion. it's bullshit i say. there doesn't seem to be a real way to have the power of the people mean anything. wait 4 years or 8 and it's turned around and around. that's crap. i'm certainly for less government involvment, rules, and interference.
what i am is something of a patriot. i still believe in this country, and in people, and hope that the right thing will happen, but not my hook or by crook. our founding fathers are surely spinning in their graves lately. i certainly didn't vote for anyone currently in power, and wish they would have the grace to step down and let someone try. god help us the next
presidentials.
so, i don't know what that makes me, but "none of the above" is a good start.
bladite
I have the feeling the two parties represent less and less of the beliefs of many Americans. Maybe something might change someday.
::::::::::::
My Parents are against the War in Iraq and have many of the arguments and perceptions of those that are. It is very strange. My father was a conservative all his life. Mom's always been a liberal.
My father loaths Bush. I mean.. really. He's convinced he's a pretty boy the party stuck up to win, and is petty and self serving. I just said, Dad, that's my generation.
I also asked him if he thought he might be reading in mannerisms and postures that might have meant just such a thing in the WWll generation, but cannot be applied the same way today. Naturally Dad understands exactly what I'm saying, but no, that George Bush is a lying pipsqueak.
Dad's a WWll Vet and engineer. Fomerly (he's old and has had a few small strokes) considered very brilliant by brilliant people. His language is not from the gutter. But boy, does he hate Bush.
Dad and I are friends and nothing as small as George Bush would stop that.
munk
::::::::::::
My Parents are against the War in Iraq and have many of the arguments and perceptions of those that are. It is very strange. My father was a conservative all his life. Mom's always been a liberal.
My father loaths Bush. I mean.. really. He's convinced he's a pretty boy the party stuck up to win, and is petty and self serving. I just said, Dad, that's my generation.
I also asked him if he thought he might be reading in mannerisms and postures that might have meant just such a thing in the WWll generation, but cannot be applied the same way today. Naturally Dad understands exactly what I'm saying, but no, that George Bush is a lying pipsqueak.
Dad's a WWll Vet and engineer. Fomerly (he's old and has had a few small strokes) considered very brilliant by brilliant people. His language is not from the gutter. But boy, does he hate Bush.
Dad and I are friends and nothing as small as George Bush would stop that.
munk
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2006
- Messages
- 657
Munk, your Dad sounds like a very wise man with the life experience to back it up. You are blessed to have such a Dad.
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2004
- Messages
- 1,163
Munk,
Even though I was serious, I'm glad you thought my line about nuking Stalin was funny! Coming from a wordsmith of your caliber, it is quite a compliment to be told by you that I said something you wish you had said!
When I think about it, there is quite a bit of humor in there. Another example of one of my totally unrealistic "wouldn't it have been nice if..." ideas.
Oh well, my turn to feel like the gerbil who pokes his head up, mutters something unintelligble, and then disappears again!
Maybe I'm like the little mice in BABE. Making comments, but not adding to or detracting from the story.
I suppose this is sort of a thread "splice" from the "Cleek" thread.
Maybe I'll have the honoor of killing another thread!
Maybe Bruise will chime in with something completely different, as only he can.
To me, this thread has been nothing but classic cantina. But maybe I don't know nothin' .
Tom
:foot:
Even though I was serious, I'm glad you thought my line about nuking Stalin was funny! Coming from a wordsmith of your caliber, it is quite a compliment to be told by you that I said something you wish you had said!
When I think about it, there is quite a bit of humor in there. Another example of one of my totally unrealistic "wouldn't it have been nice if..." ideas.
Oh well, my turn to feel like the gerbil who pokes his head up, mutters something unintelligble, and then disappears again!
Maybe I'm like the little mice in BABE. Making comments, but not adding to or detracting from the story.
I suppose this is sort of a thread "splice" from the "Cleek" thread.
Maybe I'll have the honoor of killing another thread!
Maybe Bruise will chime in with something completely different, as only he can.
To me, this thread has been nothing but classic cantina. But maybe I don't know nothin' .
Tom
:foot:
Tom-
I don't understand either- to me, we had a lot of great moments in this thread.
I've recieved a couple emails praising me for my posts being civil. I don't understand how all this ties in to the larger picture- but apparently there have been complaints too.
Nasty has never liked political threads, and as mod he is where all the opinions land; pro, neutral, against.
I thank you all for your best hearts efforts.
Let's give this one a rest.
munk
I don't understand either- to me, we had a lot of great moments in this thread.
I've recieved a couple emails praising me for my posts being civil. I don't understand how all this ties in to the larger picture- but apparently there have been complaints too.
Nasty has never liked political threads, and as mod he is where all the opinions land; pro, neutral, against.
I thank you all for your best hearts efforts.
Let's give this one a rest.
munk
Nasty
Chief Cook & Bottle Wash
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2003
- Messages
- 5,924
I got lucky on this one...it has worked in a good way overall.
But yes...I do hate political threads. Before anyone asks...*I* read and comment in political threads because unlike *all* of the rest of you, I *have* to.
Otherwise, I'd have free time to go outside and chop stuff.
But yes...I do hate political threads. Before anyone asks...*I* read and comment in political threads because unlike *all* of the rest of you, I *have* to.
Otherwise, I'd have free time to go outside and chop stuff.