New Orleans, the shame of America

BH. You make an excellent point. You did it with every courtesy. I appreciate this very much. It is a common disagreement about the civil war and we are on opposite sides of it. Thank you for expressing it so well. :thumbup:
 
The_Shadow said:
You got it, Andy. You are off limits from here on out.
Have a good weekend!
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No, I guess I don't get it. I am not off limits, that was not my intention, I was fishing for an apology for being called a racist.:mad:
 
Personal attacks used to be extremely rare in the cantina regardless of the differences in personal opinion.
 
The_Shadow said:
that's bad, but Iraq is the shame of America. This one is just regular pork politics as usual.
Not that there is any excuse for it, but I don't think it can ever change. We finally got a conservative president and a conservative congress, and we are worse off than ever. I really thought it would be different once "my" party got into 100% power, and it was worse.
Now, I'm Libertarian. When they get elected and they do just as bad, I don't know where I'll go, maybe the Greens.
Nobody seems to be able to resist the temptation of so much money.
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um...yea. "Worse off" my arse. Gass prices are anoying but thats all iv seen change. Life is no different for me, or anyone i know.

Middle class suburban life is completely unchanged here in Indiana...Apparently, people are starving in the streets where you live, but everyone i know is doing just as good or better then before GW took office...Heck, I actualy think im BETTER off. I got a fancy new laptop, and flat screen monitor, a camera phone, Had no problem finding a summer job, started fixing up my Trans Am, got me a few rifles. My quality of life is actualy better. Im just a middle class college kid with no connections; my Father is a low level paper pusher, and my mother works odd jobs for firends. Needless to say we arent exactly rich. I dont know what your expecting life to be like, but Iv got a good home, good friends, my own car, and a job so im happy as a lark. But i suspect thats the differences betweene us: I know how to be thankfull for what I have, instead of b*tching about how every insignificant thing is all GW's fault ;)

As for NOLA...Well, they live like hell with no regard for anyone or anything else. Its their "tradition" to over-indulge in everything. What do you expect them to do with money? Giving them a debit card is like giving a suitcase of money to a crack addict; they are just guna' blow it on drugs and hookers.
 
Okay, okay, let's all breathe. Last I checked, the shooting wars between the North and South were still in a ceasefire, so enough with the Civil War thingy. Or the WWII bombing of Japan.

I am not telling anyone to shush, mind you. Just reading over the mish-mash that this thread has been... Poor Danny. Didn't know your little clip from CNN would turn into such a turd in the punch bowl, eh? I know I have been guilty of keeping the thread off-topic quite badly, so I thought I might try to do some repair work.

You guys mind doing a little reading here? Good.

I have been floating around over here for a few months, opining here and there, trying not to cause any trouble (well... not too much), getting to know you guys, and picking up a few of Yangdu's beautiful DOD YBB's.

Never knew Bill. Or Rusty. Or any of the "old" guard really, other than the ones still with us. But I have really enjoyed meeting the quality folks here; it's rare. Some of you guys are very nearly tractable humans to me after a few trips through the threads. That's saying a lot for what is basically a bunch of anonymous text messages online, wouldn't you agree?

So I am going to kick off my shoes and unburden myself here on a few things -- give you guys a chance to know me a little, maybe. Here goes.

The aftermath of Katrina in New Orleans is a very sore subject for me. Although I have never technically lived there, I have spent huge quantities of time there, dated a woman long distance for four years who did live there, worked over there for a couple of months after Ivan... I generally just love the place, and have had experiences there that I know could not have happened anywhere else.

Yes, it's seedy, poor, run down, corrupt, falling to pieces, morally debauched, smelly, antiquated, backward, sexy, exciting, intoxicating, beautiful, laid back and addictive.

She's everything that everyone has ever said about her and more.

That makes her -- to me -- one of the classiest cities in North America: New Orleans is a city that cannot be bothered to pretend to be anything other than what it is. There is very little pretense over there, and very little tolerance for it. There are different priorities that (although not necessarily mine -- remember, I never MOVED there) I have to respect and have tried to understand, even if I do not agree with.

The poverty there, before the storm, was amazing. It was everywhere. And it was extreme. There were parts of that town and the population that had been forgotten, neglected, passed over, pissed on and generally mistreated for generations. A lot of those people left over those generations, but a large enough number remained to make them a visible minority. They were everywhere -- even uptown by the Park, St. Charles, over by Tulane; the human suffering was pervasive. It was everywhere.

The native New Orleanians, they learn to deal with it, to block it out, to make it go away. The poor over there are some of the most invisible people I think I have ever encountered. But they have always been there.

During and after Katrina, the true "least of these" over in the New Orleans area were failed by their local government (first and foremost), their state government (gov. B), and -- yes, the United States of America. And because their suffering after the storm was acute (and which our news networks kept us so "well" informed about via "New Orleans Survivor: Hurrican Season") and visible, there was a reaction. Those people didn't just get that way because of the storm. They didn't, by and large, just go crazy because they had an excuse to: they were a class of have-nots who had been failed by their own heritage, government, fellow citizens -- pretty much the whole deal. It's just that the storm made them two things that they hadn't been before: completely terrified and very visible.

I ask you, had this been another very poor, largely black, low-lying waterfront metropolitan area named Washington, D.C., would our country have treated the situation the same? Would it have taken weeks for real relief to arrive? Would the levvies have been allowed to degenerate that badly?

I somehow doubt it.

And I don't defend the people who wasted the money that they WERE able to get from FEMA and the Fed. Gov. They behaved irresponsibly. But keep in mind that a large number of those people had never had to deal with that kind of available cash before in their lives. But I think that in an effort to cover its own incompetance, FEMA is probably a lot more willing to blame the people they gave the money to than the infrastructure that allowed for that kind of irresponsible disbursement of funds.

I don't care if someone spent $200 on a bottle of champagne, whilst FEMA still cannot account for millions.

I know Lower-Ninth-Warders who can't wait to get back, to rebuild, to reclaim, to get closure, something... I know people who lost five generations' worth of family history that had all been in the parlor of great grandmother's shotgun cottage. I know plenty of poor-as-shit, decent hardworking folks that we have not seen on the news, busting their asses, trying to get back to normal.

There is an historicity here... Maybe revisionist, maybe political, maybe controversial... certainly shameful. Sure, it's New Orleans' shame. But it's mine too. And yours. And every viscious and lazy minded news watcher out there who wants to get angry at a minority of New Orleanians for behaving irresponsibly, while America stood by last fall and watched one of our national treasures drown.

I am so sorry... I don't like being this angry. But the patent nonsense around this situation has been disgusting.

I lost that four-year long relationship after Katrina. She fell to pieces. She lost everything. Water from the break at the 17th street canal went through her house, just five blocks away from the rupture.

Water six feet deep went through those rooms, as tall and as dark as I used to...

So it's a personal loss for me as well.

Go to New Orleans. See how bad it really is. See what has (and hasn't) happened. Talk to people who have seen it from a whole lot of very different perspectives. And then make up your minds.

Thanks for riding out the rant, fellas.
 
Where does this source of vast misinformation come from?

we heard, "Lincoln never cared about freeing the slaves-he said so."

Uh- only if you want to REVISE history. It is true earlier on Lincoln did not 'care' about freeing the slaves- and he did say so. In fact, he was against it.

Later in his career, he changed his mind. Just like a lotta former southern bigots did in our own Senate and House in the last 35 years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>If we really had guts, and the moral high ground, the third nuke would have been dropped on Stalin. The 4th on Mao.>> Gravertom

Now this, on the other hand, is simply a very funny line I wish I'd said.

.......................................


Shadow, if you called Andy a racist you are out of line and burning bridges all around you.


This isn't a political thread- this is a Left radical Social/historical Revision party. If Thomas Linton were here he'd clobber ya all.


munk
 
I ask you, had this been another very poor, largely black, low-lying waterfront metropolitan area named Washington, D.C., would our country have treated the situation the same? Would it have taken weeks for real relief to arrive? Would the levvies have been allowed to degenerate that badly?

I somehow doubt it. >>>>>>>>> Broken H.

Doubt if you dare. The federal government does not have a great record getting the job done. They seem to an equal opportunity spend and bungler, but racist? No. If anything, to 'prove the opposite- they would do handstands. And they did to some extent. The PLEADED with the Gov of LO. to declare a disaster and release the Guard. Is the Gov a racist? Is Andy a racist? Am I, or Mr Green Jeans?????

Never expect the Federal Govt to pull you out of the fire. It won't happen. Not quick enough- that's why we have local communities, governments, etc.
Remember- the City would not evacuate!!!!! The City could not use the fleet of buses, the City sent it's own BLACK population to places without help.

IF you think that's the Federal Government's fault, or proves a financial racist agenda- well, I surrender. The Moon people did it. It's all their fault. The US lost the War- the one with the Romans.

....""didn't, by and large, just go crazy because they had an excuse to: they were a class of have-nots who had been failed by their own heritage, government, fellow citizens -- pretty much the whole deal. It's just that the storm made them two things that they hadn't been before: completely terrified and very visible.""" Broken H.

My Uncle taught school in New Orleans for 25 years. The people you are referring to did not do well in school. That the Federal government's fault? More free cheese gonna help?

Poverty and disenfranchisement are national problems- but- it's not simple cause and effect, and short of buying them all houses, cars, incomes and whatever else, what do you propose to do about it? Spend money?

We have illiterate immigrants coming over here, who become very well to do and learn to speak English better than our own home grown poor.
But you have it twisted- the growth starts with the individual, not the Government.

You brush off New Orleans corruption like a quaint relic from the past- do you all the embezzeled and diverted levy funds might really help those poor people, but their own city takes it- the Levy Board owned a boat marina, and wanted a Casino- or did they already have that??!!

"There is an historicity here... Maybe revisionist, maybe political, maybe controversial... certainly shameful. Sure, it's New Orleans' shame. But it's mine too. And yours. irresponsibly, while America stood by last fall and watched one of our national treasures drown. "" Broken H

Yes, all our shame- but you had to ruin the paragraph with just more misdirected anger at:

"And every viscious and lazy minded news watcher out there who wants to get angry at a minority of New Orleanians for behaving"

I'm not viscious, and I don't think the vast majority of AMerica is-

What do you propose to do about poverty? What do you think we should do about New Orleans?

Can you think of something constructive- truly useful- instead of just Paying the Bill as usual? Because paying the bill for people who expect to be taken care of all their lives does not work.

New Orleans? Poor or not, I've not seen another place in the US where so many rescuers were shot at, we had to pull back help. The only place that comes to mind is a tiny barrio I know of in Calif called Casablanca. There was a TV special on Casablanca one year- very interesting. This mexican slum hates whitey so much that when a fire breaks out, they shoot at the firetrucks, so their own buildings burn down. When one gets shot, as is frequent, they shoot at the ambulance.

Fortunately, Casablanca was small, and has nearly gone away now- I hope.
The New Orleans area is huge and not going away, especially if we simply pay them to stay that way.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Finally, I'm glad you can talk freely here. It's good to have you. We'll never agree, but that's OK.


munk
 
My overall point, munk, in response to the article that Danny originally posted, is that there is a whole lotta skewin' going on over this NOLA thing. I didn't try to absolve New Orleans or New Orleanians: "During and after Katrina, the true "least of these" over in the New Orleans area were failed by their local government (first and foremost), their state government (gov. B), and -- yes, the United States of America." What I originally said.

And I was not making into a race issue -- quite the contrary, I was drawing a parallel between NOLA and DC, and saying that I think DC would get a different kind of recovery treatment DESPITE very similar demographic conditions. I have observed a precise condescention by many Nor'Easterners toward all things Southern of late, especially from within the media, not to mention g'ment.

I was just saying that playing the "lazy negra" card to explain the New Orleans situation ain't never gonna fly with me. The situation is more complex than that by far, and I am insulted every time someone tries to dismiss the whole debacle with that blanket racist smear.

Poverty? NOLA? Lots of proposals. Lots of ideas. Rebuilding the Lower Ninth would be one of them, as it COULD be an opportunity to EMPLOY a large portion of the population with relatively high-paying, low-skill jobs. A portion that many consider unemployable. But guess what? There isn't anywhere to house them, so the various Governments, from local to fed, are signing off on private contracts to provide that unskilled labor force.

Back in the 1890's, when the immigrant Irish were digging canals, they camped them on the shore of Ponchatrain. Why not now?

I understand that things are hot around here right now. Especially for you. I am just trying to get the focus back onto IDEAS and not personal jibes. I know I can count on you to be on board for that.

Perhaps I should have kept the sociopolitical aspects of my opinion out and made this totally personal, but I didn't feel it was in the nature of what the thread initially intended.
 
If you did not wish to make is a race issue, than this is not what you meant to say:

<< I ask you, had this been another very poor, largely black, low-lying waterfront metropolitan area named Washington, D.C., would our country have treated the situation the same? Would it have taken weeks for real relief to arrive? Would the levvies have been allowed to degenerate that badly?

I somehow doubt it.>>>>>

munk
 
I understand that things are hot around here right now. Especially for you. I am just trying to get the focus back onto IDEAS and not personal jibes. I know I can count on you to be on board for that.>>>>>>> Broken H.

Things aren't hot. I'm just worn out. You should see it around here. I have my own disenfranchised to work on. They are currently screwing up their afternoon chores. Not entirely their fault- the Wife kept them up too late, is taking a nap, and thought giving them a job right below her bedroom window was going to work fine.

You see that? That's right here. Imagine New Orleans.

New Orleans had the money to do the dikes, right- and spent it on other things. The local politicians probably guessed the Feds would bail them out no matter what, so why bother?

Pay the disslocated to rebuild the dikes? I don't know. They used to do something like that on the NDN reservations- the firecrew would work the fire on the reservation. Problem. The fire crew kept lighting fires.

Pay them to rebuild? What then?

You know, when I'm tired, my spelling gets worse. I cant remember which Dyke? Dike? We want to repair. That could be important later on....The women's movement would be at our throats...I'm willing to bet the one with water is Dike.

So, let's look at this- local corrupt government mispending the funds which the poor underclass need desperately. Fed's bail out city. Feds leave, local politicians go back to doing what they do best.

I don't know either, Broken H. I don't. It's the same old story of poverty across the US, we just never dreamed we'd have to watch them starve on national TV.

munk
 
munk said:
Shadow;
Uh...there is no proof, none, that Saddam got 'rid' of his chemical arsenol after the war with Iran.
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and there's even less proof he had any when we went in. bush lied, i hate saying so baldly, but he lied. it's been proven he lied, and he doesn't have the balls to admit it. he just lies more.

munk said:
We found some missiles with chemical warheads. We believe many of the materials were taken to Syria before the the second gulf war began.
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the missles found were so old it's virtually certain they would not have worked, either from the aging chemicals, not to mention the missles themselves were duds. saddam WOULD have used them if he could have or even knew - it's not like people lose things. the usa loses crap all the time.

munk said:
However, let's look at this: if Saddam had nothing, and wished to continue the lucrative contracts he had with France under the 'embargo', why would he not allow weapons inspections?
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because he was a soveriegn leader/nation state and didn't have to allow dick inside his country if he didn't want to. just like that other thread of mine which was nuked, if a cop asks you if he can search you, your house, your car, you have the RIGHT to say no. are you hiding something? maybe. you still can say no. are you not hiding something? doesn't matter, you can say no. there is no guilt at all associated with saying no and refusing a search. as you are king unto your property without/until merit/provocation/actionable-suspicion (remember cops in the usa can search if you they feel they can get away with it, you cannot search a country that way)...

the USA does not have the right to trample other people's/countrie's rights. when we do, we make a mockery of justice, democracy, and what "we" believe in.

munk said:
Remember- he did not allow these inspections many months before the war.
That does not pass any smell test from any practical sense.
>>>>>>>
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as other have no doubt pointed out, he was forced to remove all his weapons of war, and other articles, and leave himself defenseless. he has to talk up the fact he could at least still defend himself. if the USA attacked him, he wanted us to worry, but the real fact is, some other country (israel? iran? even the french), might well have rolled over his ass if they knew how easy it would have been. no occupation, they'd just bomb the snot out of him and leave the mess. only the USA goes in to rebuild after we nuke'm from orbit.

he was basically screwed coming and going. he couldn't admit he was helpless, and he couldn't back up his claims, and he totally can't prove the negative that he doesn't have what he says he had, when he as far as we know, got rid of all of it. to this day, other than a handful of defunct missles, that weren't a thread to a kindergarten anywhere, did he have anything worse than a bad case of the farts waiting in reserves.

munk said:
Lets skip all that. The Middle east is full of sympathy to the new Wahhabi Islam after decades of the Royal families playing off the 'satan' US against the poverty of their populations. Saddam was an unstable regime in a post 9-11 world. If we'd taken a chance, and not gone in, and St Louis nuked or poisened, what then?
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well, aside from other reasons, iraq was not the threat. the saudis are for the most part - remember *THEY* did 9/11, supplied, trained, and bankrolled. we know this. we still buy their oil and kowtow daily for it. we have more to worry about from N korea imho. saddam didn't have the money or resources to poison a cheeseburger in nebraska.

munk said:
How long before a narcistic and insane regime would aid the defeat of the West? That was one of his stated goals. Could we trust a candy store in the middle east after 9-11?
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it's the stated goal of many factions for all of the West to die. in iraq, at the time, there were 3 major zones, sassam could barely control his, and the others were the nutjobs and not under his authority/control. can't blame saddam for those attitudes, really. i can't. maybe others can.

munk said:
You want to gamble with Nuclear holocaust? And who do you think would suffer most under a biological or nuclear incident? The poor in the third world.

No. I'll admit the war was rough, it may have even been shoddy- though recall the world's premier intelligence agencies thought Saddam had WOD.
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as a parent, if a kid were to say "but i *THOUGHT*"... that's never a good excuse. they have to KNOW. they did know. they knew that there were NO WOMD. period. bush didn't want to hear that. this is known stuff now. they knew, without doubt, that saddam was a pushover. that's one of the reasons they chose him, and not N. korea, or iran, or even israel (yah, we're going to have to tangle with them someday, they're scary, even if we are currently supporting them - like the USA - beautful people, terrible leaders).

munk said:
But the stakes are beyond even what many on the left consider a lie or a mistake.

let's work on success in Iraq, and getting out when possible. Let's work on limiting the Patriot act as neccesary. But let's win this War with Terror.
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the ends justify the means again? if we have to lie to do "right", then maybe we really should look things over again.

there is no war. we did not declare war, the president did not have current permission from congress to enact war (it expired), there was no declaration of formal war. we just bombed them. call it a coup, that's pretty much what it is. we took out the legal (if horrible) govt of a sovereign nation against the will of the world, bombed the snot out of the insurgents (freedom fighters to some), and are installing our own form of government which in theory THEY will be allowed to run as their own. someday. that's a coup by definition, eh? except for the part about "the people" doing it - most people's don't do coups anyway.

munk said:
Let's look at one more thing; Lybia gave in. The effects of a Democratic Iraq will be devastating to the Religious rulers in Iran, with the large middle class disliking the restraint of freedom, and the shock waves of democratic freedom will shake Saudi and the rest.

Sorry all, but if you believe in freedom, this is not a court room game, the stakes are life and death, and call for bold moves.

I'd like to share with you the most cynical belief I have for times like these- what I call the movement of history, a time of the Whirlwind: and that sad fact, is that in many respects it does not, and did not matter who we hit after 9-11. When you play for keeps, the innocents are not spared. But Iraq was a master stroke, because if succesfull, it accomplishes so many good things.
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well, i did matter who we hit..., because saddam was the weakest link, a pushover, and we used him. the others don't care because they figure sooner or later, it'll fail, and they can take over again. remember, they're in a culture where 100 years is a grain of sand. 1000 years isn't soon enough. the USA is a young country compared to them. a baby. we'll let our ADHD/ADD distract us and boom. then what.

munk said:
I'm sorry many of you do not understand this is a new time, a time without borders, and will require the worst and best in us.
munk
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a time of liar and cheats, that would do anything, even rape their own country and sell out for money, to do the right thing for them. okay, here it is. i'm digusted with the way the USA has been doing things "in my name". the leaders apall me. i am terribly saddened that the president can lie to us, and we continue to take it (after all, what can we do?), the media distorts and all the facts we get are vetted for truth, justice, and the american way, and people keep forgetting the basics. do not lie. be honorable. tell it like you see it. do not be a bully. be the old brother, and help the younger sibs, be true to yourself, keep god out of govt please, and for God's sake :P have some decency.

this is not our proudest hour.

bladite
 
munk said:
Things aren't hot. I'm just worn out.
munk
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Then let's just give this one a rest. I would prefer that we hear each other before firing back and forth. I am not sure that is happening very well right now, munk.

Maybe this discussion should pop up somewhere else, as something else.
 
It will be interesting to see how this one works out. When I say such things, I get flamed. Now Bladeite is saying the same thing.
Hmm. This place IS interesting!
My advice to all: don't take yourselves too seriously. This is the internet, and it is not real life. This one is for fun, let's keep it that way!

And a little note to Munk; I did not call Andy a racist. Read the post, draw your own conclusions. I do believe I went too far with him, he got offended. But, I was indulging in the "reduction to the ridiculous" strategy where you show someone where they are at by exaggeration. No more, no less. My opinion, for what it is worth, is that there are folks here who would believe anything Bush said to them, go along with anything the gov't did, and never question it at all because by gosh it is my country! How could it be wrong?
I don't agree with that stand. That is my right to do so, and while I don't intend to change, I also don't want to offend anybody. So, I will back off some and try to figure out who is easily offended and leave them alone.
OK? I hope so.
 
I hate political threads...and now I have to read every one of them.

Ya'lls karma is suffering for forcing me into this.

Guys...take 'em to the W&C or someplace. I never agreed to Mod a political forum.
 
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