new sage, cf/s90v

Thanx for the kind words and good information, Zen, Paul.

Some thoughts to share:

Our maker in Taiwan was not selected because of price or country. They were selected because of their very high skill level. The steel used in the Sage models is made in America. The clip is made in America.

There are few factories in America that can match his quality.

Paying a worker $7.00 per hour is, in my opinion, not an effective solution. Wages in America must be high enough so Americans can afford to buy American products. Then it will pay to build products in America and the economic cycle can spiral upwards.

By paying workers low wages (legal or illegal), it forces one to purchase Chinese made products. Which I might add are far different, cost wise than Taiwan made products.

We are constantly trying to increase our US capacity. We are still investing in new equipment for our Golden facility. Training knifemakers to build to our standards is difficult and time consuming. We are still doing that.

sal
 
We are officially in a recession. How much are knives going to cost when the US economy collapses into a depression and the US dollar is worth pennies? It happened before, and it can happen again, let's not get complacent. Have pride in your country, read the labels on the products you buy. Think about which country you live in and which economy you want to support.
 
I've followed this thread since the start (MORIMOTOM, nice knife BTW - I'll wait for the RFL though). I feel that Spyderco is a true American company doing business in the modern international economy. Keep up the good work Sal and Co.:thumbup:
 
We are officially in a recession. How much are knives going to cost when the US economy collapses into a depression and the US dollar is worth pennies? It happened before, and it can happen again, let's not get complacent. Have pride in your country, read the labels on the products you buy. Think about which country you live in and which economy you want to support.

I think these are wise words. I would add that you should insist on high quality American made products. Force our American workers to the highest standards so we can pay them higher wages.

sal
 
I have had my Sage now for maybe 3 months and i use it after work and on weekends for going out, its my nicest knife fit and finish wise. I love it and i am going to buy a back up. It replaced my Caly 3 vg-10 and i never thought anything would. I dont like metal knives so the new sage does not intrest me ( but im sure itll be a beauty). The Carbon fiber sage IMO is top notch at a good price.

And on the other subject i dont care what is stamped on the knife ,china, hong kong, or iraq. I do not buy cheep things i like to buy good quality inexspensive things. I.E. Byrd knives ,Sages etc etc.... If Sal and CO promote it i buy it cause i know the quality will be good and thell be accountable if its not.

I am Canadain and dont feel so patriotic these days. Too many laws too many hand outs and bleeding harts. So i look after me.

Sixheads
 
Ya know you guys say that buying a knife made over seas isn't supporting the American economy but Spyderco is an American company and the store that you buy it from if it's a brick and mortar store is American owned or the online company is American owned, so really the knife is made in Taiwan but everything around it is American(owner of the company, retailer, etc). If what I have said makes sense then read it if not then eh.
 
Ya know you guys say that buying a knife made over seas isn't supporting the American economy but Spyderco is an American company and the store that you buy it from if it's a brick and mortar store is American owned or the online company is American owned, so really the knife is made in Taiwan but everything around it is American(owner of the company, retailer, etc). If what I have said makes sense then read it if not then eh.

Not only that but remember earlier in the thread it was revealed that the steel for the knife is made in the USA as is the clip. The most important part is the money for such is invested in equipment for the Spyderco's US plant. In a way Spyderco is doing what other nations have done in the past. Using outside markets to build up their internal factories to better compete at a higher level.

:cool:
 
Ya know you guys say that buying a knife made over seas isn't supporting the American economy but Spyderco is an American company and the store that you buy it from if it's a brick and mortar store is American owned or the online company is American owned, so really the knife is made in Taiwan but everything around it is American(owner of the company, retailer, etc). If what I have said makes sense then read it if not then eh.

Not only that but remember earlier in the thread it was revealed that the steel for the knife is made in the USA as is the clip. The most important part is the money for such is invested in equipment for the Spyderco's US plant. In a way Spyderco is doing what other nations have done in the past. Using outside markets to build up their internal factories to better compete at a higher level.

:cool:

Maybe, but I'd very much rather buy products that I know American workers are putting together. Sure the company is going to get money either way, but I'd like to see some of that money going into the pockets of American workers rather than chinese or taiwanese or japanese workers.
 
Maybe, but I'd very much rather buy products that I know American workers are putting together. Sure the company is going to get money either way, but I'd like to see some of that money going into the pockets of American workers rather than chinese or taiwanese or japanese workers.

I support the growth of N.American business, but to suggest buying only product made in N.America, is a bit short-sighted. The reality is that we live in a global economy and must compete on those terms. The idea that we should adopt a 'protectionist' stance has been done before. The result was turning a recession into a depression.

I don't go out of my way to support foreign business, but I do go out of my way to support N.American business. If that happens to mean buying a good quality Chinese product, so be it.
 
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This may be a little off topic, But I also am anxiously awaiting the new sage. The way I see it People in China, Taiwan, India, Mexico, or Wherever are still people. And all people need jobs. (In fact you might be able to make the argument that a person should buy more from them due to the lower wages, higher unemployment and lower standards of living.) I have no problem spending my money and supporting anyone who does outstanding work. (with the obvious exceptions of child labor and slavery) I don't give americans my money just because they are americans. I buy the best product at the best price. Local people can even charge more because they would have lower shipping costs. Sal Thanks for this knife... it's almost my perfect knife....(only needs a lanyard hole, but I'll fix that if there's room.) Later Grizz
 
I'll probably write a much more in depth comment on the nature of this "issue" later. New Years activities demand my presence at the moment. For now I'll leave a point that, as far as I know, hasn't been made yet.

The price is not lower for not being made in the USA. You can get a slightly larger Benchmade Mini Dejavoo from NGK for about 5 dollars less than the Sage. Yes, the Benchmade "only" uses G10 where the Sage uses CF, but alternatively, the Benchmade is a larger knife and uses more G10, as well as textured G10 and they're both liner locks. They should be pretty comparable, I'd think.

Yet, the Benchmade is essentially the same price, despite being made here in the USA. It should go without saying, but Benchmade's quality is rather famous, as well as Spyderco's and these aspects should be roughly comparable too.

So the question I pose is: If you can buy one of two cars, each 97% similar to the other, and of equal quality (we hypothesize), will you buy the car made in Germany or the car made in Korea? Forgive my slight mis-analogy, car countries of origin do not directly map onto knife countries of origin.

I think that, among reasonable, educated people, the quality of the product (however you want to spell that out) along with the price/value of the product, are basically the only factors that matter (NOT prestige factors). But supposing we have a virtual tie, like we have in the Dejavoo case, how should we break that tie? Perhaps we can choose the more prestigious country of origin.

When the chips are down, if we found Daewoo to be making a car that was directly comparable in every way, price included, to a given Porsche, which brand will we get? We will almost undoubtedly get the German Porsche. I will, anyway.

At any rate, it seems clear to me that there is no huge price advantage to buying non-US at this point in time in the knife world. As such, if you want me to give up the preferred country of origin (other arguments on the subject excluded), you'd better give me a good reason--a superior price, quality, feature or so on--and right now, I don't see these things.

All this said, I'm a big supporter of Taiwan's resistance (but not their recent lack thereof) of a certain less-than-ethical government and actually quite enjoy Japanese knives, contemporary and traditional. Taiwan's knife production, however, is not well known to Americans and when you enter into a well established market as a virtual unknown, you're going to need to compensate people for choosing you over the "sure bets." So far, there is nothing like this.

I actually love the Sage and very well might order one in the next couple weeks to supplement my injured Dodo.

I'll cover the economical and political issues later.
 
A little off topic and trying to keep my shiny footprints , that mini Dajapoo with the spyder hole copy is a wanna be lum (i dont like lums just observation). I dont buy any knifes but spydies. IMO the other knives i have handeled from other knife makers are average. My Sage is in a way higher class than that Other knife . Not trying to start anything just my opinion.

Sixheads
 
Hi Art,

I take it that you do not own either of the models that you are comparing?

sal
 
No, sadly, but I may soon. My Benchmade collection is flourishing, however, so I don't really feel a need right now to add to it, where I think my Spyderco side could use more knives. As well as my Kershaw.

It's irrelevant, of course, as those were just two examples that were cognitively available to me at the moment of writing. We can find any number of examples to use here.



After re-reading the posts many times, I've isolated what I consider to be the main sub-arguments on the subject:

1: The cost of American manufacturing is so much higher than Chinese/Taiwanese (etc) that at least some stuff must be made in those places.
2: We ought not manufacture goods in certain countries because we're supporting bad governments (bad is a broad term...perhaps they exploit workers, have military aspirations that are unsavory...we'll fill this out later)
3: We shouldn't buy knives made in these countries due to a lack of quality.
4: Our economy needs all the help it can get, so we should go out of our way to buy American.
5: The reputation of some Asian goods is embarrassing, and we don't want the stigma of that stamped onto our blades.

These are incredibly complex arguments to flesh out in any meaningful way, but I'll do my best to evaluate their cogency. I will do this one post at a time.

I've already tackled argument 1 in my last post, but here's a bit more discussion. It's empirically false that knives made overseas will necessarily be available to the consumer at lower prices. I don't have access to the figures of the knife companies themselves to calculate just how much profits increase to go overseas, but it seems quite apparent that the consumer doesn't really benefit financially. Clearly, production is being shifted to China for both Benchmade and Spyderco, and they wouldn't do this if they didn't have a reason.

That said, Byrd knives and the lower end of Benchmade do seem to be available at very low prices despite reasonably good materials. Sadly, unlike the Sage, these models tend to use different steels and thus direct comparisons aren't available to us without knowledge of the cost of the material itself combined with the cost of manufacturing.

Thus, there appears to be some truth to the argument that migration to Asia lets the consumer get good products at lower prices.

However, I don't think this is a meaningful conclusion for two reasons. First off, we're mainly discussing Taiwanese manufacturing (which I find greatly preferable to China for reasons to be discussed in the other arguments), which, in the case of the Sage, is not getting us knives at lower prices in the real world.
The second answer is that the lower prices are irrelevant. I couldn't care less if you save me 10 or 20 dollars. I, and the average Spyderco/Benchmade/Kershaw consumer in the price range of the Sage, have the money to buy what we want and to satisfy preferences for preference's sake. I don't even care if the Spyderco is 300 dollars.

This company doesn't, and shouldn't, cater to the low end knife buyers. Spyderco is held to a higher standard, and with it, a relatively higher price. This is why I celebrate Spyderco's use of the Byrd brand to participate in that market--it doesn't dilute the brand name. Benchmade's choice to produce knives overseas and sell them at bargain prices while still using the Benchmade name to sell them is simply a bad call in the long term, even while it allows them to cash-out their reputation right now. While Spyderco is now utilizing Taiwanese and Chinese manufacturing with the Spyderco name, it seems to participate at higher quality and price levels which will result in a smaller dilution of the brand reputation, and, if its like Japanese manufacturing, in the long term Chinese/Taiwanese manufacturing may lack the stigma it does today.

But we're clearly not at that point now, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
So is the claim that Chinese/Taiwanese production is requisite due to price competition a good one? No. Spyderco buyers, as a market, are not that price sensitive (we don't seem to be troubled by spending 130 dollars on a knife), and significantly lower prices may actually hurt the brand name. Furthermore, Taiwanese manufacturing, of which our discussion is especially invested in, doesn't appear to significantly reduce prices for the consumer.
 
A little off topic and trying to keep my shiny footprints , that mini Dajapoo with the spyder hole copy is a wanna be lum (i dont like lums just observation).

Yeah, "wanna be Lum" :rolleyes:

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I see only two ways of fixing this problem, one, our govt. needs to levee heavy fines and taxes on all imports from outsourcing. And two, Americans need to stand up and support American companies.

Yeah, do as you please. That's the way to go :rolleyes:
You are going to get say X in producer surplus and lose say 10 times as much in consumer surplus. Do you consider that beneficial (to a country as a whole)?
 
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