new sage, cf/s90v

I don't think the Dejavoo is crucial to the argument, given it was just one of a great deal of potential examples, but just for ease of comparison for those Lum fans in the crowd:

Benchmade iteration:
benchmade.jpg


Lum custom from earlier:
folder1.jpg


spyderco_lum_01.jpg


I think they're all gorgeous. Initial reports with the Dejavoo indicated that there were a number of manufacturing defects, but among the current Dejavoo lineup, I'm told they're all quite perfect now.

I prefer the shape of the Spyderco, but I like the scales on the Benchmade. I'd love to have all three.

I think it can be obviously seen from the comparison of the production Benchmade to the Lum custom that the Benchmade is not some cheap imitation.
It's an extremely refined imitation.
 
On a side note, can you believe this brilliant Lum custom Chinese folder went for just 700? Had I seen that for sale...I might be EDCing it now.

1283-1.jpg
 
Hi AM,

I would like to go back to #1.

I believe your argument supposes that both are equal in design. I would suggest that they are not.

While I agree that the Dejavoo (Outlander) is a very beautiful design and probably more eye appealing than the Sage, I believe the Sage is more effective in one hand opening, security when using, one hand closing, and it carries more effectively as it is much thinner.

Since you don't own either model, your conclusion is based on what appeals to your eye.

It seems tht you are suggesting that one purchases the Dejavoo simply because it is made iin America. I am suggeting that one should purchase the Sage simply because it is a more effective design for using.

sal
 
I believe your argument supposes that both are equal in design. I would suggest that they are not.
Click to expand...

On the contrary. The sub-discussion is about value. Knives that are totally inferior in capability often sell for thousands of dollars due to some other features about them (some nail-nick slip joint custom in damascus and mammoth ivory, for instance).

I completely agree with you about the design of the Sage--I love the wire clip and the finger choil.

But again, I know of no clear way in which these design features cost more money to produce, and were they to cost more money (I believe the wire clip does cost a bit more than a conventional clip), it's not as if the Benchmade couldn't reply with some part of its design.

And again, the argument is not contingent on these examples. These were just the first things that came to mind.

Since you don't own either model, your conclusion is based on what appeals to your eye.
Click to expand...

My conclusions are not based on aesthetics. They are based on a sheet of stats on the two knives. Roughly similar sizes, materials and so on. I wanted to get two knives that were pretty similar in quality, size, material (etc etc etc) except one was made in America and another in Taiwan. This would allow us to get most of those variables out of the way. For the record, to MY eye, I prefer the Sage.

It seems tht you are suggesting that one purchases the Dejavoo simply because it is made iin America
Click to expand...

I'm not suggesting one buy either knife. My argument is not about particular knives, it's about the supposed value benefits of producing in Taiwan. My conclusion is much broader.

Basically, I conclude that the savings of moving to Taiwan are not obviously there for the consumer. The Dejavoo, which is roughly similar, is actually found to be cheaper in many places despite its American production. I go on to claim that were there to be significant savings, they would be irrelevant or even detrimental to Spyderco's brand image. Because Spyderco is seen in the eyes of the layman and the collector as the high end of production knives, associating with the stigmas of Chinese/Taiwanese production, even if the quality is great, may be costly. This is not a particular criticism of Spyderco, as we could fly right over to the Benchmade site and say the same thing. Furthermore, this is not a criticism of you, as you never claimed that Taiwanese manufacturing was intended to provide cheaper production in the first place. I'm not sure where you stand on Chinese production though. It's fairly clear that your Chinese products occupy lower price points than your Japanese and American products, however.

Before we go further in our discussion, it should be noted that no one other than myself knows what my ultimate conclusion is on the matter. For all any of us know, I'm going to come out in favor of Taiwanese or Chinese manufacturing when all is said and done. I don't want to show my hand until I'm done to keep from coloring the discourse with bias to allow people on either side to evaluate my arguments fairly.

I have nothing but tremendous respect for you and Spyderco. I'm only discussing the subject because it seems to reappear frequently and I think that it deserves evaluation.
 
Thanx much AM for your explanation. I appreciate your understanding and your point of view. Thanx also for your kind words on the "Sage" design.

The "Sage" project was 2 years in-the-works before we were able to make the first piece. The project is a recognition of lock designers and inventors.

The Taiwanese maker that we are working with is exceptional, which is why we chose him to work with. As far as the "stigma's", as well as "build in America", I don't think we'll disagree.

Our Chinese production is the result of having to compete with all of the other competitive brands building in China.

Taiwan is not longer a place where a manufacturer would go for price as their prices are no longer much lower. I will admit that many Taiwanese makers are buiilding product with their "partners" in mainland China, but marking Taiwan on the pieces.

sal
 
Great Post,

Sorry for my silly replies on the lum knives , i should not comment as i do not look at or use any knives besides spydies and i personally do not find the lums in any form appeling. (but im sure there great).

That being said i do have a Sage CF and i will be buying another to put away in case i lose mine. I love it is Classy and i can afford it. Fit and finish are amazing and the steal is top notch.

Again great posts, its why i keep comming back.

Sixheads
 
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