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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
New Schrade catalog
- Thread starter RusCus7
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Every once and a while I lurk back to this board to see what is going on, and threads like this always seem to peak my curiosity. As a former Schrade employee with first hand experience of what really went down please let me just say the following (all of which is simply my opinion)
Looking back, I would say that Schrades demise was ultimatly brought about by concentrating on selling through Wal-Mart at prices (demanded by Wal-Mart) that Schrade was unable to make sufficient profit on. In order to make the product when demanded, Schrade expanded the production capabilities significantly through primarily borrowed funds. This equipment was highly underutilized, and the production process itself and operations was stuck in the 50s, making for a very inefficient and unprofitable operation.
Schrades demise was not the fault of any conspiracy by banks. The banks (First Union / Wachovia was the primary lender to answer a previous question) bent over backwards for years to help Schrade stay afloat during this time of unprofitable operations (even to the point of constantly having to excuse irregularities). What I saw first-hand was an Enron-Esk reaction to the financial difficulties (yes, from the very top down), and when there was no more paper profit to create, it all came crashing down and the bank was left with no choice but to call the loan.
There were indeed consultants involved near the end. Some told Schrade what needed to be done, but since what they told Schrade was not what it wanted to hear they were dismissed. New ones came in, Marcel & Alvarez, a firm of turn around specialists. They promised the sun and the moon, but when they too failed to do anything they helped contribute to the mess as well.
Looking back, I would say that Schrades demise was ultimatly brought about by concentrating on selling through Wal-Mart at prices (demanded by Wal-Mart) that Schrade was unable to make sufficient profit on. In order to make the product when demanded, Schrade expanded the production capabilities significantly through primarily borrowed funds. This equipment was highly underutilized, and the production process itself and operations was stuck in the 50s, making for a very inefficient and unprofitable operation.
Schrades demise was not the fault of any conspiracy by banks. The banks (First Union / Wachovia was the primary lender to answer a previous question) bent over backwards for years to help Schrade stay afloat during this time of unprofitable operations (even to the point of constantly having to excuse irregularities). What I saw first-hand was an Enron-Esk reaction to the financial difficulties (yes, from the very top down), and when there was no more paper profit to create, it all came crashing down and the bank was left with no choice but to call the loan.
There were indeed consultants involved near the end. Some told Schrade what needed to be done, but since what they told Schrade was not what it wanted to hear they were dismissed. New ones came in, Marcel & Alvarez, a firm of turn around specialists. They promised the sun and the moon, but when they too failed to do anything they helped contribute to the mess as well.
The biggest thing that makes me curious is why did the bank pull the backing suddenly. Schrade had rehired employees a few months earlier and they seemed to think they still had time to turn it around.
Do you think the bank got wind about some Enron-esque dealings going on? Whether real or not it may have been enough for the bank to shut it down quickly.
I don't think the bank has a choice of how to run the company when it calls in a loan. I believe it goes to bankruptcy court and in the end everything gets auctioned. It would have been nice to have been able to go ahead and ship all of the final product but I don't think it was their decision to make.
If the bank had control of the auction they should have ran it better. Like LT stated, they could have made much more money. Also if they bank decided to write it off then I would guess in the end the taxpayers would eat part of it.
Do you think the bank got wind about some Enron-esque dealings going on? Whether real or not it may have been enough for the bank to shut it down quickly.
I don't think the bank has a choice of how to run the company when it calls in a loan. I believe it goes to bankruptcy court and in the end everything gets auctioned. It would have been nice to have been able to go ahead and ship all of the final product but I don't think it was their decision to make.
If the bank had control of the auction they should have ran it better. Like LT stated, they could have made much more money. Also if they bank decided to write it off then I would guess in the end the taxpayers would eat part of it.
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I started expanding my Schrade collection early this year when I found out they were no longer in business. The reasons are twofold, 1) I already had a pretty good start and 2) I wanted my grandchildren to love and grow up with some of the same knives I loved when I was growing up.
It seems to me that all Americans have lost a great deal when any American company with the history and traditions that Schrade had goes out of business. For me having a knife with brown saw cut derlin scales in my pocket is traditional.
I have in my collection to 33OT that belonged to my grandfather. I also have a Frontier knife that belonged to my other grandfather. I have a Sharpfinger that my grandmother gave me. I have a 225H that my father bought in the late fifties or early sixties. My youngest son is also a knife collector and has several Schrades. It has been a tradition in our family for at least four generations. I have 8 grandsons and I intend to leave a Schrade knife to each of them, so that they can grow up with that comforting feeling of having one of those brown knives in their pocket.
I agree with some of the earlier posts that we need to keep American jobs in America. Having retired from a state employment agency I have seen the havoc wreaked on our labor market from the North American Free Trade Act. I prefer to buy American-made products.
As a Vietnam veteran I refuse to buy Nike shoes or any other product made in Vietnam. I kind of feel the same way about China. Too many of the rounds that came our way were made in China.
It seems to me that all Americans have lost a great deal when any American company with the history and traditions that Schrade had goes out of business. For me having a knife with brown saw cut derlin scales in my pocket is traditional.
I have in my collection to 33OT that belonged to my grandfather. I also have a Frontier knife that belonged to my other grandfather. I have a Sharpfinger that my grandmother gave me. I have a 225H that my father bought in the late fifties or early sixties. My youngest son is also a knife collector and has several Schrades. It has been a tradition in our family for at least four generations. I have 8 grandsons and I intend to leave a Schrade knife to each of them, so that they can grow up with that comforting feeling of having one of those brown knives in their pocket.
I agree with some of the earlier posts that we need to keep American jobs in America. Having retired from a state employment agency I have seen the havoc wreaked on our labor market from the North American Free Trade Act. I prefer to buy American-made products.
As a Vietnam veteran I refuse to buy Nike shoes or any other product made in Vietnam. I kind of feel the same way about China. Too many of the rounds that came our way were made in China.
textoothpk
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Started in 1975 in Kingsport, TN, by Stewart Taylor. Low production knives aimed at the collectors market. 'Elk Horn' was the most popular Taylor Brand, all imported. Other marks: Cherokee, Taylor cutlery with elk head, Taylor-Seto Surgical, Japan; In 1985, Taylor bought the 'Bear Creek' trademark, which had a good reputation, again, all imported knives, mostly from Germany. I like the pre-'85 ones.
Taylor knives are rated as 'Very Good' as far as collectibility, by Ritchie and Stewart in their 'Standard Knife Collectors Guide'. They gush about them.
C. Houston Price is not so kind in his book, 'Official Price Guide to Collector Knives'. Taylor Cutlery is rated as 'low' in collectibility, and there is no mention of any of Taylor's brands in the text that I can find.
BR Levine in his books was equally unimpressed by Taylor Products, rating them as 'low' as far as being in any way collectible.
There is mention of Taylor's buck creek brand in the book 'Commemorative Knives' by J. Bruce Voyles, but that tome is about all commemoratives, of which Taylor did do quite a few of and of course Taylor deserves a mention. Kindy please make note that these knives were brought out in the years before 'the internet'. You could buy them in such places as Jim Parker's 'Cutlery World' stores, or you could buy them mail order. Back in the days when you could send a long, self-addressed envelope to the advertisers in the knife magazines for a listing of what they had to offer.
The difference in opinions may be due to the fact that knife companies that concentrated on early 'commemoratives' during the beginning of the commemorative-craze were highly thought of by certain knife 'experts' and writers who saw this as a way to expand the hobby. Old Knife hands like BRL and C. Houston were obviously not so into this concept. In any event, for collectors eager to build up their collections with limited production knives, Taylor came along at the right time. The knives were made in Germany or Japan. Other big names from this era (late 1970s, very early 1980s) were Fight'n Rooster (Frank Buster), 'Battle Axe' (favorites of mine), 'Star Sales', ect.
My own impressions of the entire Taylor Cutlery lineup since the beginning is rather neutral. Right about where I rate Jim Parker or the earlier Jim Frost knvies/brands. I have none in my current collection, but looking at my records, I've owed and sold a few. As I recall, and as my notes mention, I had some nicely boxed up sets of 'Cherokee' knives. The boxes were nice! The plastic handles tended to turn up at the ends.near the bolsters (at least on the few I owned). 'Elk Horns' tended to be better made, with stag, bone, mother of pearl handles. The mother of pearl was generally glued on, not pinned, which in my opinion is the easy, cheap way out. (See pic two below) The Taylor-Seto made in Japan knives were mostly (it seems to me) of the butterfly and 'tactical type'. For some reason I like the 'Shark' Model, an original by Taylor, which came in at least four different plastic handles. It was a Taylor original design. See first pic below. Bear Creek knives could be very decent. As in any case, it depended on the amount of money invested in the making of them, the design, the foriegn maker. All would do the basic job of a knife- which is to cut.
Of particular disgust to me personally is the many KKK-- that is Klu Klux Klan knives, that Stewart Taylor offered. These sell for pretty big money on Ebay, but they are 'forbidden fruit' and because they are disallowed by Ebay as offensive, the auctions end early. I have never seen a Taylor knife celebrating the Nazis, perhaps this somehow got past the man. I won't dirty up our forum by showing pics of the Taylor-KKK knives, but I reserve the right to if Stewart Taylor or another one of his shills shows up here.
Taylor is of course the maker of the 'John Deere' and Smith and Wesson knives. S+W once had great knives made with their logo on them, as good as their guns, but it seems they just pimp out their good name any more. The 'John Deeres' make a nice gift for farmers.
Just my ramblings on the brand name: Taylor. I welcome any corrections. I thought there might be a few people here curious about the knife background of Stewart Taylor. Personally, I see the acquisition of Schrade by Taylor as not only a money making proposition, but as a way to increase his stature in the knife world.
When you place your cursor on the photos below, you can read the brand and the price these fetched on Ebay recently.
Phil
Taylor knives are rated as 'Very Good' as far as collectibility, by Ritchie and Stewart in their 'Standard Knife Collectors Guide'. They gush about them.
C. Houston Price is not so kind in his book, 'Official Price Guide to Collector Knives'. Taylor Cutlery is rated as 'low' in collectibility, and there is no mention of any of Taylor's brands in the text that I can find.
BR Levine in his books was equally unimpressed by Taylor Products, rating them as 'low' as far as being in any way collectible.
There is mention of Taylor's buck creek brand in the book 'Commemorative Knives' by J. Bruce Voyles, but that tome is about all commemoratives, of which Taylor did do quite a few of and of course Taylor deserves a mention. Kindy please make note that these knives were brought out in the years before 'the internet'. You could buy them in such places as Jim Parker's 'Cutlery World' stores, or you could buy them mail order. Back in the days when you could send a long, self-addressed envelope to the advertisers in the knife magazines for a listing of what they had to offer.
The difference in opinions may be due to the fact that knife companies that concentrated on early 'commemoratives' during the beginning of the commemorative-craze were highly thought of by certain knife 'experts' and writers who saw this as a way to expand the hobby. Old Knife hands like BRL and C. Houston were obviously not so into this concept. In any event, for collectors eager to build up their collections with limited production knives, Taylor came along at the right time. The knives were made in Germany or Japan. Other big names from this era (late 1970s, very early 1980s) were Fight'n Rooster (Frank Buster), 'Battle Axe' (favorites of mine), 'Star Sales', ect.
My own impressions of the entire Taylor Cutlery lineup since the beginning is rather neutral. Right about where I rate Jim Parker or the earlier Jim Frost knvies/brands. I have none in my current collection, but looking at my records, I've owed and sold a few. As I recall, and as my notes mention, I had some nicely boxed up sets of 'Cherokee' knives. The boxes were nice! The plastic handles tended to turn up at the ends.near the bolsters (at least on the few I owned). 'Elk Horns' tended to be better made, with stag, bone, mother of pearl handles. The mother of pearl was generally glued on, not pinned, which in my opinion is the easy, cheap way out. (See pic two below) The Taylor-Seto made in Japan knives were mostly (it seems to me) of the butterfly and 'tactical type'. For some reason I like the 'Shark' Model, an original by Taylor, which came in at least four different plastic handles. It was a Taylor original design. See first pic below. Bear Creek knives could be very decent. As in any case, it depended on the amount of money invested in the making of them, the design, the foriegn maker. All would do the basic job of a knife- which is to cut.
Of particular disgust to me personally is the many KKK-- that is Klu Klux Klan knives, that Stewart Taylor offered. These sell for pretty big money on Ebay, but they are 'forbidden fruit' and because they are disallowed by Ebay as offensive, the auctions end early. I have never seen a Taylor knife celebrating the Nazis, perhaps this somehow got past the man. I won't dirty up our forum by showing pics of the Taylor-KKK knives, but I reserve the right to if Stewart Taylor or another one of his shills shows up here.
Taylor is of course the maker of the 'John Deere' and Smith and Wesson knives. S+W once had great knives made with their logo on them, as good as their guns, but it seems they just pimp out their good name any more. The 'John Deeres' make a nice gift for farmers.
Just my ramblings on the brand name: Taylor. I welcome any corrections. I thought there might be a few people here curious about the knife background of Stewart Taylor. Personally, I see the acquisition of Schrade by Taylor as not only a money making proposition, but as a way to increase his stature in the knife world.
When you place your cursor on the photos below, you can read the brand and the price these fetched on Ebay recently.
Phil
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Thanks Phil,
I remember a lot of those names from the 80's when I was managing a cutlery store. I didn't think it great deal of them then either. Being in Oregon we concentrated on local companies, Gerber, Kershaw, Al Mar and Bench Made. This was in the time before Fiskers bought Gerber, before Kai bought out Pete Kershaw and before Al Mar passed away in 1992. We carried a few Parker/Taylor/Frost pieces because they were cheap. I think they were bought mostly by younger people who couldn't afford, or didn't see the value of a quality knife. I don't recall any collectors purchasing them. Most of our collectors wanted Al Mar and Kershaw and later on Bench Made. I have 1 Taylor knife in my collection, a butterfly knife that had fallen apart.
I put new pens in it and it works better than any of them than I've seen new from the factory. Go figure!
Dale
I remember a lot of those names from the 80's when I was managing a cutlery store. I didn't think it great deal of them then either. Being in Oregon we concentrated on local companies, Gerber, Kershaw, Al Mar and Bench Made. This was in the time before Fiskers bought Gerber, before Kai bought out Pete Kershaw and before Al Mar passed away in 1992. We carried a few Parker/Taylor/Frost pieces because they were cheap. I think they were bought mostly by younger people who couldn't afford, or didn't see the value of a quality knife. I don't recall any collectors purchasing them. Most of our collectors wanted Al Mar and Kershaw and later on Bench Made. I have 1 Taylor knife in my collection, a butterfly knife that had fallen apart.
I put new pens in it and it works better than any of them than I've seen new from the factory. Go figure!
Dale
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- Feb 16, 2006
- Messages
- 9
I am new to this forum, so please forgive my ignorance.
I don't understand what the big deal is about whether a knife is made in the U.S. or China.
My first knife was an Old Timer pocket knife that my Dad bought me at the local country store. It's kind of worn out so I bought a new one a few weeks ago.
I can't see any difference in the quality.
I don't understand what the big deal is about whether a knife is made in the U.S. or China.
My first knife was an Old Timer pocket knife that my Dad bought me at the local country store. It's kind of worn out so I bought a new one a few weeks ago.
I can't see any difference in the quality.
You can honestly say you don't care if a USA company that is 100 years old closes and the patterns and brands are now made in China---or any other country, for that matter? I
I, for one, will pay more for a US made product unless the quality is much better in the foreign brand.
This is probably a dangerous thread to re-open.
Kevin
I, for one, will pay more for a US made product unless the quality is much better in the foreign brand.
This is probably a dangerous thread to re-open.
Kevin
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- Jan 21, 2001
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- 1,634
There Ya Go. Amazing. I hope you enjoy your new knife. I suppose it isnt the quality as much as the cost. I doubt you understand my point. Your point of view is quite common so perhapes you are correct. Perhapes if you have the time you could check the archives which explains some alternate points of view. In the future perhapes these knives will be made in the peoples republic of Montana. We have the freedom of choice bought and paid for in American blood I support your right to exercise that right by buying whatever is your preference but that choice is not God given it was paid for in american blood. ( I do not wish to intimate that you were not aware of this nor do I wish to offend ). However in my case i choose not to buy a knife from a govenment that has sworn its hatred to our country and people and shown that hatred and spilled American lives in two wars in my lifetime and uses political prison labor ( many who are in jail for supporting democracy ) I realize it is tough to find some products which are not made from this area of the world however I is just my right not to purchase from them as it is yours to do so. I support your right and opinion I hope you would extend the same curtesy to myself and those who might feel different than your self on this opinion. Good luck with your knife. LT
textoothpk
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Let me just rephrase my very first post in this thread made about four months ago:
textoothpk said:
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- Oct 11, 2005
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MontanaSteelMan said:
Is your new knife made in China, or is it an old stock USA made one? If it is made in the USA it will say USA on the tang. I inadvertently bought one of the china ones and it is a far cry from the USA Schrade, in fit and workmanship. If yours is from china, watch it and see if it holds up as well as the old one did.
Welcome to the forum.
Dale
Because those who shop there on a regular basis look for the cheapest price they can find on any given item. And Wally usually provides that. Lets face it, quality & the politics of China are not on shopper's minds when looking to buy something at Wally.
I'm sure there are many reasons for Schrades' demise, & I'd be willing to bet, (as FormerSchradeGuy said) poor business decisions had alot to do with it.
Bottom line is, far too many American jobs are being lost to cheap labor around the world. You can argue all week long the reason for that, but in my mind greed & corruption are at the top of the list. What the future of this country brings is anyones' guess. But if this trend continues, I'm afraid anything Made in America will become a thing of the past. And then the question will be, how many people will care?
I'm sure there are many reasons for Schrades' demise, & I'd be willing to bet, (as FormerSchradeGuy said) poor business decisions had alot to do with it.
Bottom line is, far too many American jobs are being lost to cheap labor around the world. You can argue all week long the reason for that, but in my mind greed & corruption are at the top of the list. What the future of this country brings is anyones' guess. But if this trend continues, I'm afraid anything Made in America will become a thing of the past. And then the question will be, how many people will care?
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First, I want to thank all of you for your input.
To answer one person's question, I am NOT a Schrade Dealer.
It would appear that I need to do some homework and research on this forum, and I really do appreciate all of the comments made by everyone. So, please be patient with me if I ask stupid questions.
I really liked one person's comments about making the knives right here in the People's Republic of Montana. We've got plenty of space to builld a factory, and God knows, we have many skilled people.
One person mentioned that the chinese were our sworn enemies. Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan open up talks with the Chinese and normalize trade relations? Have they ever made open acts of aggression towards the U.S. You know if we wanted to take that attitude, then quit driving your cars and as in my case a rusted old pickup because the Arabians are financing the terrorists that committed that act of aggression on 9-1-1.
Please forgive my rant. And, I do agree that we all have the right to our own opinion.
To answer one person's question, I am NOT a Schrade Dealer.
It would appear that I need to do some homework and research on this forum, and I really do appreciate all of the comments made by everyone. So, please be patient with me if I ask stupid questions.
I really liked one person's comments about making the knives right here in the People's Republic of Montana. We've got plenty of space to builld a factory, and God knows, we have many skilled people.
One person mentioned that the chinese were our sworn enemies. Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan open up talks with the Chinese and normalize trade relations? Have they ever made open acts of aggression towards the U.S. You know if we wanted to take that attitude, then quit driving your cars and as in my case a rusted old pickup because the Arabians are financing the terrorists that committed that act of aggression on 9-1-1.
Please forgive my rant. And, I do agree that we all have the right to our own opinion.
Codger_64
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A Chinee general was reported to have stated that if we interfered with Chinese territory (including ships and planes)....
"If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond, said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.
We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.
Won't ..you .. be..my ..neighbor!
Codger
"If the Americans are determined to interfere [then] we will be determined to respond, said Gen Zhu, who is also a professor at China's National Defence University.
We . . . will prepare ourselves for the destruction of all of the cities east of Xian. Of course the Americans will have to be prepared that hundreds . . . of cities will be destroyed by the Chinese.
Won't ..you .. be..my ..neighbor!
Codger
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- Jan 21, 2001
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- 1,634
Your right Montana sometimes I forget, that now they are our friends and really only have our welfare in mind. It happens when the bullet hole in my right leg kicks up must have been the chinese manufactured bullet that went through it. Your rusty pickup analogy was interesting but not very applicable since unlike red China who you prefer to support with your preference for there products. Right now a small action is taking place and if those who are found to be against are efforts happen to be of arabian heritage they get to receive one of our knives as a gift much the same as I delivered some steel to the fellow who made the mistake of shooting me. I betcha my pickup is as rusty as yours, mine was made in America. If I live long enough to need another one I hope I can still say that about it. " Please forgive my rant. And, I do agree that we all have the right to our own opinion " LT