do you like s35vn? (kind of a trick question)I agree with heat treating comments, in my post I assumed all heat treatment was done correctly... I think you are missing the main point:
Let me repeat in better detail (assuming you follow the common sense logic not to cut things you are not supposed to):
A. Knife performance = blade steel heat treatment + blade steel composition (chemical)
If knife was not heat treated properly you will experience blade breaking, chippings and just feel that knife is not performing. Period. When you buy the knife, you do ASSUME that heat treating was done properly, since there is no other way of finding out, other than cutting things and EDCing the knife!
B. Now what you can choose and control is the blade steel. What kind of blade steel should you go for that I think is the most important first decision you can make. My very first knife I got had m390 blade and this was the gateway drug for me and that's how I wound up with experimenting, testing blades and collecting knives. I might not be an expert knifesmith, but I do know enough to hold a descent conversation and argue my point with any knifemaker.
Now - all these steels I mention below as DO NOT BUY - these blades can get dull edge pretty fast - just try cutting rope, carpet, cardboard boxes and see how long your blade will last, how long it will maintain its sharpness and how sharp it will be at the end of the day. You will find yourself sharpening your blade pretty much every day or every other day. You might not even be able to peel a potato afterwards.
Therefore, I DO VERY STRONGLY BELIEVE that the following blade steels (below) are complete BULLSH*T and no descent knifemaker should ever use these again unless you want to put a knife for retail sale under $50.
PLEASE (for your first knife) DO NOT BUY any knife with the following steels: Chinese steels (9cr, 8cr,7cr and lower), any Pakistani steels, 440 steels, plain stainless crap, AUS 8, AUS 8A or below (AUS 7 etc), AUS 10, AUS10A, VG10, N690co, Non-American D2, RWL, 154cm.
Get any knife with these steels (assuming they have been heat treated properly): CPM M4, M390, CPM 20CV, CPM S90V, S110V, 10V, 3V, Elmax, American-heat treated D2 (Greg Medford does fantastic job)....
The logic behind: FOR ME PERSONALLY (and that's where I am giving my advice from, from my own personal experience & view) Knife is a mutliuse cutting tool, you should be able to slice an apple, cut a rope, cut a cardboard, wood, cut a car door out or take down a concrete wall. That's why I carry Medford Fighter sometimes, sometimes I carry Cold Steel 4 Max, Cold Steel Espada XL.... knives that might seem insanely big for others, for me just a cool big EDC blade.
That's all. Don't get too upset with my views and opinions. I am glad to discuss and explain you my viewpoint.
-
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Recommendation? New to knives, looking for help
- Thread starter Hoyle33
- Start date
It all comes down to the cost-to-performance ratio. While I do have some decent knives, a lot of times I prefer a cheaper knife with a decent steel. I can have a lot of fun knowing that if I mess it up, drop it in the lake, somehow break it, etc I can replace it more easily. All knives will eventually dull, and if I'm out away from my sharpening equipment it's a lot easier if a good flat rock will get the job done. Try that with a high abrasion resistance steel and you'll get real tired of it.
afishhunter
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I stand corrected. I was not aware of that.
Chronovore
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I'd like to follow up on the "bad steels" out there. Yes, there are a few I'd count as deal-breakers at any price. Some are used because they are cheap and not surprisingly, they won't get a good heat treatment anyway. The low-number Chinese alloys such as 3Cr13Mov, 4Cr14Mov, and 5Cr15Mov are in this category. Unspecified 440 is generally in this category. Unspecified "stainless steel" is often just one of those or something similar. (Of course, that's not always the case. I think Mora's "stainless" is 12C27 and that's fine for the price.)
7Cr17Mov and 8Cr13Mov are sort of on the cusp. Neither is "good" and both used to be better before we had all the choices we do today. These days, I have a hard time recommending either in knives that cost more than $25. It actually ticks me off to see companies like Kershaw and CRKT pushing 8Cr13Mov in $40+ knives.
420HC is a special case that speaks to the heat treatment issues under discussion here. On its own, it isn't very good. In my experience, it can be as bad as some of those low-numbered Chinese steels. However, Buck famously uses it with a good heat treatment. I don't have personal experience with Buck's 420HC but there are plenty of people here who could fill us in.
Beyond that, there are plenty of "good" budget steels out there. I've had good experiences with 12C27 and 14C28N. Tangram's Acuto 440 is pretty good. I rather like 9Cr18Mov from either Civivi or Real Steel. Chinese D2 seems variable but even on the low end with companies like Kubey or Ganzo, it tends to hold a noticeably better edge than 8Cr13Mov.
7Cr17Mov and 8Cr13Mov are sort of on the cusp. Neither is "good" and both used to be better before we had all the choices we do today. These days, I have a hard time recommending either in knives that cost more than $25. It actually ticks me off to see companies like Kershaw and CRKT pushing 8Cr13Mov in $40+ knives.
420HC is a special case that speaks to the heat treatment issues under discussion here. On its own, it isn't very good. In my experience, it can be as bad as some of those low-numbered Chinese steels. However, Buck famously uses it with a good heat treatment. I don't have personal experience with Buck's 420HC but there are plenty of people here who could fill us in.
Beyond that, there are plenty of "good" budget steels out there. I've had good experiences with 12C27 and 14C28N. Tangram's Acuto 440 is pretty good. I rather like 9Cr18Mov from either Civivi or Real Steel. Chinese D2 seems variable but even on the low end with companies like Kubey or Ganzo, it tends to hold a noticeably better edge than 8Cr13Mov.
strategy9
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FWIW
Chronovore
, while I can definitely relate to some extent, also keep in mind that many of the $40+ chinese made knives in 8cr13mov, by Kershaw and CRKT particularly, are often designs tied to and collaberated with specific higher profile knife designers, which drives up that price a bit... giving credit where due, you can own a very budget friendy "Sinkovich, Hinderer, Burnley, Mah, etc." design without the premium price tag, materials, or premium fit and finish. Definitely a bit of a catch 22.
And oftentimes if you're patient enough, you can get many of 'em for 50% off or so a few years later on down the road when companies start pushing their old unsold stock...
Chronovore
, while I can definitely relate to some extent, also keep in mind that many of the $40+ chinese made knives in 8cr13mov, by Kershaw and CRKT particularly, are often designs tied to and collaberated with specific higher profile knife designers, which drives up that price a bit... giving credit where due, you can own a very budget friendy "Sinkovich, Hinderer, Burnley, Mah, etc." design without the premium price tag, materials, or premium fit and finish. Definitely a bit of a catch 22.And oftentimes if you're patient enough, you can get many of 'em for 50% off or so a few years later on down the road when companies start pushing their old unsold stock...
ZT 0350, a little above your budget, but money well spent IMO. For around $140-150 you can have a nice, strong , hefty liner lock assisted opening knife with a S30V steel blade. I’ve had a couple of these in the past, and the only small gripe I can think of is I’m not overly fond of recurved blades.
Chronovore
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FWIW
And oftentimes if you're patient enough, you can get many of 'em for 50% off or so a few years later on down the road when companies start pushing their old unsold stock...
That almost makes it worse. You get a fancy name and mediocre steel for more money. With some of those knives, you do get a cool design. Maybe you can find it on sale or something. Then you've got a cool design in mediocre steel...
Don't get me wrong. I remember when 8Cr13Mov was a good budget choice. It's just that too many companies are now offering those better budget steels I mentioned for around the same prices. Starting around $20, you've got Tangram, Kubey, QSP, Sanrenmu, Ruike, and more offering decent knives in Acuto 440, 12C27, Chinese D2, etc. Once you cross the $40 line, you can buy a Civivi!
Addicted_to_Knives
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YES and NO. For me, it all depends on blade thickness. If the s35vn blade is above 0.14 inch thick - YES I love it (generally), below 0.14 thick - not really feels too softish. On thin blades s35vn seems a bit too soft for my taste at times. Overall I'd give B+/A- grade to S35VN blade steel.
However, I have to mention Rick Hinderer's S35VN. I do not know what kind of crazy heat treatment Rick does on s35vn, but his s35vn (xm 18 and xm 24) has outperformed my Chris reeve Sebenza s35vn and even Cold Steel and others. So it feels to me that Rick's s35vn blade has some sort of magic heat treating done, A+++ steel!
Overall I'd recommend s35vn to anyone anytime.
WOW...Something tells me you're from a much younger generation. You'd have a heart attack if you saw my knife collection- a lot of original Schrade's and Western/Coleman era. Lots of 440A and 1095. Here I was just digging the 154CM on my Paul Prankster by Lone Wolf Knives and then you came along. Your list of "wisdom" just made me love mediocrity even more
.Well, biggest "knife guy" I know IRL is the guy who currently has around 7 knives, and almoust never uses them, despite now having one as EDC (Fallkniven KKLZ). He only has Fallkniven and Mora knives.
He frowned at both of my Cold Steel knives, for:
1. Being so cheap for such big knives
2. Being non-stainless.
And he also frowned at my Boker GoBag because for some reason he hates D2.
I agree that very cheap steels have their place, but for some reason I just won't buy any of them (cheap stainless steels at least), while I have no issues buying cheap carbon steel.
I mainly care about performance, and cheap carbon will generally outperform cheap stainless in all areas except corrosion resistance, and corrosion is something you can prevent by oiling the blade.
Steel snobs will always exist, and I admit I'm somewhat of a steel snob myself since I just avoid anything with 420/440 or any "alphabet soup" steel. And if I ever do decide to buy knife in such steel, I would most likley pay max 30€ for it.
He frowned at both of my Cold Steel knives, for:
1. Being so cheap for such big knives
2. Being non-stainless.
And he also frowned at my Boker GoBag because for some reason he hates D2.
I agree that very cheap steels have their place, but for some reason I just won't buy any of them (cheap stainless steels at least), while I have no issues buying cheap carbon steel.
I mainly care about performance, and cheap carbon will generally outperform cheap stainless in all areas except corrosion resistance, and corrosion is something you can prevent by oiling the blade.
Steel snobs will always exist, and I admit I'm somewhat of a steel snob myself since I just avoid anything with 420/440 or any "alphabet soup" steel. And if I ever do decide to buy knife in such steel, I would most likley pay max 30€ for it.
Addicted_to_Knives
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Something tells me you're from a much younger generation. You'd have a heart attack if you saw my knife collection- a lot of original Schrade's and Western/Coleman era. Lots of 440A and 1095. Here I was just digging the 154CM on my Paul Prankster by Lone Wolf Knives and then you came along. Your list of "wisdom" just made me love mediocrity even more
I do not usually reply-comment and argue with someone trying to use and throw indirect insults at me just because I have my own opinion and logic supported by facts that I’ve presented. However, if you read my posts here, you would have fully understood and you’d never pose this “wise” question.
But here you go
: There is only so much you can achieve with descent heat treating the steel. You do also need a blade steel material that can add more to it.
Back in the day, the 1990s and 80s there were not such a wide variety of steels and super steels available as now (due to high pricing etc). When during 2000s Lone Wolf Knives (my favorite brand RIP) used s30v on their Ranger models T1, T2 and T3 – this was something revolutionary at the time, and it was not so long ago. Only 10+ something years… I have many knives from 1990s and 2000s that use 154cm and I probably will never be able to abuse it to the point that I could say the bladesteel is BS. Unless on purpose I start cutting things I am not supposed to and damage the blade intentionally. So yes ATS34, 154CM, AUS8 and the heat treated version of AUS8 = AUS8A, AUS10and AUS10A for example could be great everyday users. If you work in warehouse and cut lots of ropes and cardboard boxes and maybe thin plywood sheets – all these blade will start going dull superfast, and not many knife EDC users know how to sharpen their blades. So you need to find a bladesmith who can do a good job and not use super high speed spinning machines that might burn blade edge.
So for me these old school steels are like a Prius V4 engine. Now we are talking about racing and doing crazy fast car tricks, or heavy pulling of weight. Try that with Prius and its V4 engine. You’ll get laughed at. However, Prius is not a bad car for its purpose. Similar analogy I can draw. There is so much these blade steels can do.
For the first knife you will cut stuff you are not supposed to, discovery process or dating period with your knife. Most first time EDC’ers can not even tell you when it is time to sharpen until its too dull and dead. Therefore for the first blade get something crazy, spend money on bladesteel and not brand/logo, so the experience will be positive and after cutting 20 cardboard boxes and 15 pieces of rope you won’t get disappointed with your blade.
The best knifes is just a combination of the two: Proper heat treating + blade steel material.
Ergos and designs and locking (frame vs backlock vs liners etc) mechanisms, washers, bearings – all these are secondary and come in later play. 90% of your knife experience is the blade steel related = proper heat treating + proper blade material.So yes I see why you suddenly assumed your assumptions, however before indirectly mocking someone’s “wisdom” please read everything and then justly criticize me and my facts vs throwing unnecessary hurtful words at me.
Yes I am millennial knife collector, millenial generation knife fan and knife designer & critic - still learning how to make knives (from scratch) as a passionate hobby.
If my experience, advice and wisdom is good enough for my Youtube followers, Instagram & Facebook fans, that’s pretty much all I care about and all I give my shts about
Trollin' ain't no my business
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Henry Beige
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Most suggestions here would be American branded knives, which I like. But as another noon to noob... it does seem NON-American branded knives are much better bang for your buck. If your concern is ONLY price & quality.
Civivi, Kizer, Honey Badger knives seem great. They are Chinese knives.
if you want American branded knives... then Kershaw and Byrd line from Spyderco are ok.
Civivi, Kizer, Honey Badger knives seem great. They are Chinese knives.
if you want American branded knives... then Kershaw and Byrd line from Spyderco are ok.
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It is a good thing.
Good, reliable tool that does what it is designed to do and is easy to maintain.
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This is just an exceptionally silly statement. Edge holding is far from the end all be all of steel attributes and even if edge holding is your primary concern, an Al Mar in AUS-8 with exceptional edge geometry will still cut for far longer than a sharpened brick in D2.
Let me repeat in better detail (assuming you follow the common sense logic not to cut things you are not supposed to):
A. Knife performance = blade steel heat treatment + blade steel composition (chemical)
If knife was not heat treated properly you will experience blade breaking, chippings and just feel that knife is not performing. Period. When you buy the knife, you do ASSUME that heat treating was done properly, since there is no other way of finding out, other than cutting things and EDCing the knife!
B. Now what you can choose and control is the blade steel. What kind of blade steel should you go for that I think is the most important first decision you can make. My very first knife I got had m390 blade and this was the gateway drug for me and that's how I wound up with experimenting, testing blades and collecting knives. I might not be an expert knifesmith, but I do know enough to hold a descent conversation and argue my point with any knifemaker.
Now - all these steels I mention below as DO NOT BUY - these blades can get dull edge pretty fast - just try cutting rope, carpet, cardboard boxes and see how long your blade will last, how long it will maintain its sharpness and how sharp it will be at the end of the day. You will find yourself sharpening your blade pretty much every day or every other day. You might not even be able to peel a potato afterwards.
Therefore, I DO VERY STRONGLY BELIEVE that the following blade steels (below) are complete BULLSH*T and no descent knifemaker should ever use these again unless you want to put a knife for retail sale under $50.
PLEASE (for your first knife) DO NOT BUY any knife with the following steels: Chinese steels (9cr, 8cr,7cr and lower), any Pakistani steels, 440 steels, plain stainless crap, AUS 8, AUS 8A or below (AUS 7 etc), AUS 10, AUS10A, VG10, N690co, Non-American D2, RWL, 154cm.
Get any knife with these steels (assuming they have been heat treated properly): CPM M4, M390, CPM 20CV, CPM S90V, S110V, 10V, 3V, Elmax, American-heat treated D2 (Greg Medford does fantastic job)....
The logic behind: FOR ME PERSONALLY (and that's where I am giving my advice from, from my own personal experience & view) Knife is a mutliuse cutting tool, you should be able to slice an apple, cut a rope, cut a cardboard, wood, cut a car door out or take down a concrete wall. That's why I carry Medford Fighter sometimes, sometimes I carry Cold Steel 4 Max, Cold Steel Espada XL.... knives that might seem insanely big for others, for me just a cool big EDC blade.
That's all. Don't get too upset with my views and opinions. I am glad to discuss and explain you my viewpoint.
Furthermore, if you don't have proper equipment, many high wear steels will be nearly impossible for you to sharpen, while something like AUS-8 will be easy to sharpen on common, affordable equipment and will be good practice before moving onto other steels (if you ever feel the need to).
Frankly, and I don't mean to offend, you strike me as someone who has done a great deal of reading and not a great deal of knife use. There is nothing at all wrong with buying enthusiast knives and overbuying your needs, but steels like 8cr13mov and 420HC are much more than adequate for the cutting needs of 99.99% of the population if properly sharpened and maintained.
Addicted_to_Knives
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" but steels like 8cr13mov and 420HC are much more than adequate for the cutting needs of 99.99% of the population if properly sharpened and maintained"
My apologies but this is the biggest BS I've seen written. We can agree to disagree of course.
Me not knowing much about knife use - I find your comment a bit rude and insulting here. Very unfortunate selection of words.
You can ask me about my knife experience and then make the judgment call, but you do judge a book by a cover and that's your thing, your life - Good luck! Actually I've cut many things to test some knives for design, ergos, locking mechanisms, tested vigorously many blade steels and models (non-collection knives for EDC). At the same time I am collab.-designing few flippers (test models) with a well known European knifesmiths and might (depending on many factors) put these Midtech models for sale next year or 2022. Then you can check it, test it and tell me how much sh*t I know about this or that topic.
At this point I am no longer going to comment or this post and topic, since these comments are not welcome in any form. Not the way to hold a proper conversation.
Very unfortunate some people can not hold a civilized discussion.
~Take a good care of yourself! I hope you never get stuck (what if you got lost in woods during hiking for several days???) in a situation where your life depends on the AUS8 or 8CR "knives" you carry! You will be extremely disappointed!
P.S. When you start a sentence with "and I don't mean to offend" 99.999% most likely you are going to offend and insult someone!
Last edited:
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Apologies for offending, but your response makes me think that I'm entirely correct about your experience.
If my life depended on an AUS-8 knife that I knew how to use and resharpen I would be completely fine. The fact that you think otherwise is, frankly, both ridiculous and a sign that you don't know nearly as much as you think you do.
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Are you aware that people who actually depend on their knives in life and death situations have in fact survived with steels you would likely consider inferior to those you have listed? Actually, dare I say most of human survival has been accomplished with steel far "worse" than AUS8.
Aus8 and 8cr are fine, given a good heat treatment and a fair price.
I think you need to reevaluate the rationale to some of your advice.