New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

banksy said:
Please quote your source for this statistic.
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I have sited it many times, maybe you missed it, its all in here


http://www.savetheelephants.org/fil... Martin & Stiles Ivory Markets in the USA.pdf

But really, you gotta be kidding me, you really don't think this will affect thousands of law abiding citizens?

I'm sorry but I am kind of losing my patients with a question like that. Just go to a knife show like Atlanta, an antique show, duck call makers, turkey call makers, dealers in netsukies, pool cue makers, the list goes on. Visit one coast ore the other, there are plenty of legal ivory dealers. I will find the numbers for you and post them.

And, really, why can't you answer the rest of my question? Is no one in your field doing it illegally?
 
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A collaboration to raise funds is a good idea, I think....I'd suggest working on the knifemaking team first,
and discussing specifics for funds use once we know more about what "Knife Rights" will
do and what they may need.
 
banksy said:
Please quote your source for this statistic.
Click to expand...
banksy,

Sir, off the top of my head and knowing not a tenth, or even a hundredth of what some of the
more learned posters in this thread do.

Just think of the knife makers in the ABS and Guild who use or have used legally documented/CITES papered ivory in their craft.
The scrimshanders, antique dealers, not to mention their clients as well as the owners of family heirlooms.

Like I said I know very little about this issue but am learning more researching it every day since it came to my attention.

I detest poaching of any kind.

Doug
 
Mark Knapp said:
I asked David, and I will ask you. I don't know what you do for a living but I am sure someone is doing it illegally somewhere, should we outlaw your profession to stop them?
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I'm a photographer. I don't understand your point; it doesn't make any sense to me at all. How would outlawing photography achieve anything positive? The proposed restriction on ivory trade is intended to bring about a change in attitude, with an objective of reducing demand for ivory. It's not even in the same ballpark.
 
Doug C said:
banksy,

Sir, off the top of my head and knowing not a tenth, or even a hundredth of what some of the
more learned posters in this thread do.

Just think of the knife makers in the ABS and Guild who use or have used legally documented/CITES papered ivory in their craft.
The scrimshanders, antique dealers, not to mention their clients as well as the owners of family heirlooms.

Like I said I know very little about this issue but am learning more researching it every day since it came to my attention.

I detest poaching of any kind.

Doug
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Are you saying that every knife maker who has used elephant ivory would be out of business if he could no longer sell his product out of State? Or is it more likely that he would continue to sell knives using different materials?
 
Mark Knapp said:
I have sited it many times, maybe you missed it, its all in here


http://www.savetheelephants.org/file...0the USA.pdf

But really, you gotta be kidding me, you really don't think this will affect thousands of law abiding citizens?

I'm sorry but I am kind of losing my patients with a question like that. Just go to a knife show like Atlanta, an antique show, duck call makers, turkey call makers, dealers in netsukies, pool cue makers, the list goes on. Visit one coast ore the other, there are plenty of legal ivory dealers. I will find the numbers for you and post them.

And, really, why can't you answer the rest of my question? Is no one in your field doing it illegally?
Click to expand...

Pool cue makers. Are you serious? Are you really telling me that we can't do without ivory in pool cues?
And your link is broken.
 
banksy said:
I'm a photographer. I don't understand your point; it doesn't make any sense to me at all. How would outlawing photography achieve anything positive? The proposed restriction on ivory trade is intended to bring about a change in attitude, with an objective of reducing demand for ivory. It's not even in the same ballpark.
Click to expand...

Outlawing the entire trade of legal ivory in the US because some, a very small percentage I am learning, are trying to smuggle ivory into the US is like outlawing photography because some photographers are using stolen cameras, or doing it without a business license, or taking pictures of things they are not supposed to take pictures of.

You can change the attitude about ivory all you want in the US and it's not going to change poaching in Africa, the demand for ivory is not in the US it's in China. I've been siting statistics and giving sources 12 pages.

I'm afraid you don't have a grasp on the situation.
 
That's not what I'm saying, by and large knifemakers are among the most honest folk I've ever had the pleasure of dealing with.
Of course they would use other materials.
My apology for getting heated and posting too quickly the first time. :)


Doug
 
Mark Knapp said:
Outlawing the entire trade of legal ivory in the US because some, a very small percentage I am learning, are trying to smuggle ivory into the US is like outlawing photography because some photographers are using stolen cameras, or doing it without a business license, or taking pictures of things they are not supposed to take pictures of.
Click to expand...

It's not the same at all. As I said, not even in the same ballpark.
 
banksy said:
Pool cue makers. Are you serious? Are you really telling me that we can't do without ivory in pool cues?
And your link is broken.
Click to expand...

It's no wonder my link is broken, I've posted it so many times, here it is again.

http://www.savetheelephants.org/fil... Martin & Stiles Ivory Markets in the USA.pdf

It's obvious you have not read any of the last 12 pages and I am having to repeat myself, can you please get caught up and ask a new question?

You missed my point, the guy making the cue is not contributing to the slaughter of elephants in Africa, he is using legal ivory, he is innocent until proven guilty. That has been the foundation of American law for over two hundred years and some of us would like it to stay the same. If you think he is using illegal ivory, catch him at it and punish him instead of punishing all of us for the misdeeds of a few.
 
banksy said:
How very arrogant of you.
Here is the opinion of "America's leading ivory buyer". Ironically, they seem to have a much better grasp of the situation than some opinions expressed here.

http://www.elephantivorytusks.com/ivoryban2014.html
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They have a pessimistic attitude about it for sure, I am more optimistic. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it, but really, it is just another opinion. And remember they are trying to sell something the rush for ivory has worked to their advantage since the presidents massage, the demand has gone up and prices are skyrocketing for legal pre-ban ivory. What they have said just enforces my argument. Your comments have shown you don't have a grasp of the situation and the link you posted supported what I said, it contradicts you.
 
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It's a long document and you are correct, I haven't read every word of it. So if you could please point out where it says how many thousands of businesses would be forced to close down as the result of a ban on out of State ivory sales (which was my question) I'd be grateful.

And you have missed my point, which is not about how much ivory is imported into the US. It's about the change in public perception of the value and desirability of ivory, which may very well have an effect on ivory demand in China.



Mark Knapp said:
It's no wonder my link is broken, I've posted it so many times, here it is again.

http://www.savetheelephants.org/fil... Martin & Stiles Ivory Markets in the USA.pdf

It's obvious you have not read any of the last 12 pages and I am having to repeat myself, can you please get caught up and ask a new question?

You missed my point, the guy making the cue is not contributing to the slaughter of elephants in Africa, he is using legal ivory, he is innocent until proven guilty. That has been the foundation of American law for over two hundred years and some of us would like it to stay the same. If you think he is using illegal ivory, catch him at it and punish him instead of punishing all of us for the misdeeds of a few.
Click to expand...
 
Mark Knapp said:
Your comments have shown you don't have a grasp of the situation and the link you posted supported what I said, it contradicts you.
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Of course they are on 'your side'. But they have a much, much better understanding of the issue. Plus they can spell and use grammar correctly.
 
banksy said:
Of course they are on 'your side'. But they have a much, much better understanding of the issue. Plus they can spell and use grammar correctly.
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Agree...disagree...I don't care but we will continue forward with civil discussion. Cheap shots about grammar or spelling on an internet forum accomplish little and come across as petty.
 
Banksy, typos come out when I type fast, generally I think I have done a pretty good job. Please, cut me a little slack on grammar, and I will do the same for you, so that we can stay on point. It is becoming clear to me that you may not be here to solve a problem but to stir things up. I have better things to do. If you have a constructive comment to make, I will address it. Otherwise I will do something else, I have a lot of material to cover.

Please have a good night.
 
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