New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

Steven65 said:
The US is certainly not the problem so banning the sale of existing Ivory in the US is pointless.
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You called someone ignorant, then made this statement? This sounds like willfull ignorance to me. I can hardly see how you justify this "it will be fine in the USA, attitude".
David
 
2knife said:



You called someone ignorant, then made this statement? This sounds like willfull ignorance to me. I can hardly see how you justify this "it will be fine in the USA, attitude".
David
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I'm sorry David, what is wrong with his statement?
 
Guys, I'm at the Arkansas show, trying to type with fat old fingers on a tiny screen.

Let's all play nice.

There is some news. Knife Rights is going to be working the legislative end of this with a couple of organizations with more national clout.

I'll add news next week.

John
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Joe,
I have nothing against people that hunt non endangered species and I make hunting knives for customers.
Hopefully people eat what they hunt. What I disagree with is that hunting elephants is the only possible answer to save elephants..

How about this with those $50.000 checks. Get together and each put in that 50 large or whatever people can and start a bank of sorts with or just grants that helps those people in country where you were start businesses were the first protect the wildlife and house, feed, farm and make and sell native made bead and wooden trinkets etc to sell to us tourists or a factory to make bricks or piping for housing & schools? If anybody knows of an organization that is currently doing this please post a link and if it checks out I will get involved myself.

I am sure long term this would work better than just handing a check to some government official or whoever this tag money is handed too?
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Laurence

I appreciate and respect your good intention

The fact are photo safaris and tourism in parks is a wonderful thing it does not add up to the money raised in concessions that allow hunting

Sad as it sounds people are not gonna drop big money unless you let them shoot a elephant

Facts at legally go harvested elephants are utilized by many poached are not

You have not met many natives have you

Most could care less about farming etc

They want e quickest means to provide means for them and there families and there 10 wives

If they have to poach to do it fine

If they can be employed in a hunting camp that is fine also

Many of the best trackers I have known are the best poachers when not employed

In a country that is strived in war and hunger do you really think anything but the bottom dollar or piece of meat is going to matter ?

Like I said before if the elephants can not pull their own weight they will seize to exist

The best way yo pull their weight is by proper game management

Again I admire your resolve but folks need to all push on the right direction if ya was something to move that way
 
Mark Knapp said:
I'm sorry David, what is wrong with his statement?
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Call me cynical, but where free trade exists, smugglers will attempt to exploit every avenue. Can you regulate a "legal" ivory trade without having someone decide they can find ways around the regulations? I say no. That is why a worry free attitude wont help. We may not be China, but capitalism is about greed too.
David
 
2knife said:
Call me cynical, but where free trade exists, smugglers will attempt to exploit every avenue. Can you regulate a "legal" ivory trade without having someone decide they can find ways around the regulations? I say no. That is why a worry free attitude wont help. We may not be China, but capitalism is about greed too.
David
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I am beginning to find that he is closer to correct than you are, I have a whole lot of studying to do on this subject tomorrow and will know more then, but I am beginning to think that the problem in the U.S. is a lot smaller than any of us may have thought.

Three points;

If the administration had any statistics to support their agenda why wasn't it included in the announcement of the strategy? Why hasn't any come forth to justify it. We have seen how all kinds of justification is brought out on pretty much everything they have tried to do.

It is very hard to prove a negative, I can't prove that smuggling is not a problem in the U.S., but some one ought to be able to prove that it is, if it is. I have not been able to find anything that suggests anything more than jewelry and trinkets are being brought here by unknowing visitors to other countries. certainly not raw ivory craftsmen would need. Isn't that what we are talking about here.

If you were a smuggler and the prices being paid for raw ivory was $1,500.00 a pound in China would you bring any of it here, where the going price is $100.00 a pound?

Are you really against free trade? I am not afraid of someone trying to do something wrong if free trade existed, catch them at it and punish them. Don't punish everybody just so someone doesn't.

I don't know what you do for a living but I am sure someone is doing it illegally somewhere, should we outlaw your profession to stop them?

I guess I have more faith in Americans as conservationists than you.

Talk to you later, Mark
 
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2knife said:



You called someone ignorant, then made this statement? This sounds like willfull ignorance to me. I can hardly see how you justify this "it will be fine in the USA, attitude".
David
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Ivory aside, I may not be an expert on Africa but having lived here almost all of my life does give me a certain understanding of the continent.

I justify my statements by saying this:

Elephant Ivory has been banned from importation into the US for years. You cannot bring it in period. This fact is not in dispute.

Now there is a push to ban the sales of all existing Ivory within the US. This Ivory has already been in circulation for years, decades, centuries.
What good does a ban on sales of existing Ivory do other than to drive up the price, involve criminal behaviour and generally cause a lot of unnecessary problems.

As Mark stated the price for Ivory in the US is simply to low and the availability to high, for it to be viable to smuggle into the US. Not when you can get 15 times the price in China.
 
The U.S. is one of the world's largest markets for illicit animal parts, officials said. Much of the ivory, rhino horn and other animal parts end up in Asia, but they are often processed in the U.S.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79266095/

The United States is the world’s second-largest market, behind China, for illegal wildlife artifacts. The legal sale of ivory in the United States and around the world helps to disguise black-market sales, U.S. prosecutors and other law enforcement officials say.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/nationa...666c5a-934e-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

Keep a legal trade, for benefit perspective :
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2013/01/21/when-you-ban-the-sale-of-ivory-you-ban-elephants/
 
I have several friends who are game wardens in Tanzania. There's about a dozen of them, charged with protecting a nine million acre wildlife refuge. Truck loads of blacks, armed with AK47s sneak around hoping to find and kill any elephant with tusks or a rhino with horn. It's a tough job, since they're always out gunned but they're making it harder for the poachers to get away scott free after murdering an elephant or rhino.
 
2knife said:
The U.S. is one of the world's largest markets for illicit animal parts, officials said. Much of the ivory, rhino horn and other animal parts end up in Asia, but they are often processed in the U.S.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79266095/

The United States is the world’s second-largest market, behind China, for illegal wildlife artifacts. The legal sale of ivory in the United States and around the world helps to disguise black-market sales, U.S. prosecutors and other law enforcement officials say.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/nationa...666c5a-934e-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

Keep a legal trade, for benefit perspective :
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2013/01/21/when-you-ban-the-sale-of-ivory-you-ban-elephants/
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Journalism is not what it used to be, it used to be, when a journalist said something he would site his resources and give the names of people being quoted, instead of saying "Officials said". The reason for this is so that their facts can be checked. When someone says "Officials said" instead of giving the name of the official that said it, it's hard to pin them down.

I will call the LA Times and Washington Post on Monday and see if I can find out where they got their information.

If you compare the sources I provided, a study of data collected by the world authority on trade in elephant part and the sources they provide, there is no comparison.

The study I read and provided for everyone to read tells a story completely opposite of the one you and your two journalists portray. I can only assume that instead of really wanting to find the truth in the matter, the three of you have an agenda.

The statement that "Much of the ivory, rhino horn and other animal parts end up in Asia, but they are often processed in the U.S." is completely absurd and baseless according to my research. The research points completely in the other direction, with just a little bit of the trinkets being taken at our borders.

The statement "The United States is the world’s second-largest market, behind China, for illegal wildlife artifacts." show a complete ignorance of the situation. First of all there is no data to show that the US is anywhere near the front on wildlife trafficking, my data shows we are at the front in fighting wildlife trafficking, we were ninth in trafficking in the years 1989 to 2007 and were on a decreasing trend. You don't have to take my word for it, read it for yourself on tables 86 and 87 in "Saving the Elephants"

Second, there are no "illegal wildlife artifacts" it's the artifacts that are legal, the definition of "artifact" is what is legal, this shows a complete lack of understanding for the whole situation, and should say something about the credibility of whoever said it. Poor journalism at the least.

I will let you know if I can find out anything on Monday
 
2knife said:
The U.S. is one of the world's largest markets for illicit animal parts, officials said. Much of the ivory, rhino horn and other animal parts end up in Asia, but they are often processed in the U.S.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79266095/
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The more I read this statement, the more it drives me crazy. If you think about it, if the material was here, and US officials new it was here, how does it end up in Asia? Why didn't they grab it? If US officials didn't know it was here, how can anyone make this statement.

Ya gotta think about these things, and question them a little bit before you invest so much of your passion into it David.

If any of this is true, if we are the second largest trafficker where is the ivory. When they crushed the six tons of ivory to make a statement, why would you only crush a little bit of the ivory you have if you want to make a statement. If you don't have more than six tons in a twenty five period, then the problem is not as big as your two journalist claim it is.

I am with you in that poaching of rhinos and elephants (in fact any animal) is a horrible thing, I hate it. Why can't we stop squabbling about this and work together to really try and fix the problem, on the ground where the atrocity is taking place. Have you read and considered any of my alternatives to the ivory ban?
 
Thanks Mark.
I do not want to pollute these waters further., if the info is wrong i would be interested to know. I dont have a financial stake as you do, and many here, so for me this is just an interesting, but sad story all around.
Thanks,
David
 
2knife said:
Thanks Mark.
I do not want to pollute these waters further., if the info is wrong i would be interested to know. I dont have a financial stake as you do, and many here, so for me this is just an interesting, but sad story all around.
Thanks,
David
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Your contribution here like Laurence's is valuable to me, I appreciate it very much. It makes us all think.

If the US was a large or even significant part of the problem with poaching in Africa, I would want to know about it, and if a ban on the sale of ivory in the US would help solve that problem I would be for it. Financial stake or not.

It's the answers to these questions that I am trying to find out. Truth and elephants are more important than how I feel or how you feel.

I try very hard to not come on too strong, but my wife will tell you, sometimes I do. If I have, I apologize.
 
No apologies necessary Mark. You speak the truth and maintain your emotions much better than I could
Gary
 
2knife said:
Thanks Mark.
I do not want to pollute these waters further., if the info is wrong i would be interested to know. I dont have a financial stake as you do, and many here, so for me this is just an interesting, but sad story all around.
Thanks,
David
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No to keep picking on you David, I think you are a nice guy and I like you, but it concerns me a little bit that you said " I dont have a financial stake as you do, and many here, so for me this is just an interesting, but sad story all around."

It's kind of a slap in the face to imply that I would do this only because I have a financial stake in it. I don't have an immediate financial stake in it, I do not deal in elephant ivory and only own about two pounds of it (with paper). If trends continue down this path, I might have a financial stake in it later, if other kinds of ivory are attacked next.

My stake in it, and yours too, is that, if passed as written, regulations from this executive order could set a precedence for how laws and regulations can be passed in the future, without due process and constitutional scrutiny. It could happen if we allow it to. It's only through conversation like this, and activity that it generates can we stop changes like these from happening.

It's a little disconcerting to me that because you don't have a financial stake in this, that you would decline to go any further in the discussion. I would hope we could talk about the things we agree on to help solve the problem.

It seems there are a lot of people that don't like the strategy that was laid out, a couple that seem to defend it, but no one wants to talk about actually doing something to solve the problem of poaching in Africa, it's a daunting problem I know, but all big problems are solved by a few people starting to talk about it.
 
Surely every country has a responsibility to end the tragedy that is the elephant ivory trade? To say 'it doesn't happen here', even if were true, is missing the point.
But of course the trade is global and we are all affected, including the USA: http://www.fws.gov/home/feature/201...AssetID_EQ=130962&XSL=PressRelease&Cache=True
The truth is that the illegal trade continues despite the CITES ban, hidden behind loopholes and the difficulty and expense of identifying and dating ivory.
I support the ban on commercial ivory sales and I hope it will change perception of a product once seen as desirable, into one that is untouchable. This may not save the elephant, but if we continue to do nothing, what can we say to our grandchildren?
 
banksy said:
Surely every country has a responsibility to end the tragedy that is the elephant ivory trade? To say 'it doesn't happen here', even if were true, is missing the point.
But of course the trade is global and we are all affected, including the USA: http://www.fws.gov/home/feature/201...AssetID_EQ=130962&XSL=PressRelease&Cache=True
The truth is that the illegal trade continues despite the CITES ban, hidden behind loopholes and the difficulty and expense of identifying and dating ivory.
I support the ban on commercial ivory sales and I hope it will change perception of a product once seen as desirable, into one that is untouchable. This may not save the elephant, but if we continue to do nothing, what can we say to our grandchildren?
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What do you say to the hundreds or thousands of business people you will put out of business, or the thousands of people who's investments in priceless collectables are made worthless?

Have you been reading along, are you going to totally disregard all the research shown here because you found one ton of elephant ivory that was smuggled into the US.

I asked David, and I will ask you. I don't know what you do for a living but I am sure someone is doing it illegally somewhere, should we outlaw your profession to stop them?
 
I know you guys may be tired of see me flapping my lips (fingers) about this but, I have been think for a while about a collaborative Bowie build to help pay for legal fees and other expenses involved with the resistance to the current strategy of the administration. Russ Andrews messaged me with the same thought.

So here's our proposal, Russ, chime in at any time; form a committee (or non-profit organization) or find an existing organization that can take on this project, who's mission it is to become a single voice for craftsmen and other concerned people to do two things;

Hire legal counsel and other professional experts to prepare a defense for the infringements of our rights, privileges and personal property as laid out in the president strategy for combating wildlife trafficking.

Find, advocate for and implement, when possible, alternate ways to combat poaching of elephants and rhinos in Africa. Grassroots efforts to actually make changes on the ground in Africa where the atrocities are occurring.

In order to raise funds for a start, I, (we) propose to Build a collaborative Bowie by the finest craftsman we can trick into helping us and raffle it off. The proceeds to go to hiring a lawyer to advise us in the next step.

Please chime in with nominations to a committee, volunteer or comment.
 
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