New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

Any argument opposing your own and difficult to counter is 'stirring up trouble'. That would be quite funny if this were not such a sad subject.
No more of your time is fine with me; you have a good day.
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banksy,

You say that you are not stirring up trouble. I see that as of now that you have 132 posts on Bladeforums.com and 23 of them are on this thread. That seems to be stirring in my opinion.

There is no one here who does not want to save elephants from extinction. We are trying to discuss the best method of doing that, and also not harming people who have always obeyed the law. Trying to find documentation on the ivory handle of a knife bought 20 years ago is not something that will be possible for most people. The proposed regulation will prevent owners from ever selling their legally purchased knives. How is that fair to anyone?

The proposed change takes away fundamental rights for people who happen to own legal ivory as of now. It will eliminate the right to due process, the assumption the we are innocent until proven guilty and private property cannot be seized by the government without just cause.

How does that help the cause of the elephant?

Jim Treacy
 
J. Doyle said:
Here's the real problem, the poachers don't care about rules and regulations. As Joe Paranee stated, a dollar or a scrap of meat is their bottom line. Much wisdom can be found in Joe's posts if people would bother to read them and think about it. Those poachers don't care about poaching if they're offered legitimate jobs with good steady pay, like as trackers and processors for professional hunters and guides. Read some books by Peter Hathaway Capstick. He covers this very issue in many of his books about being a professional hunter in Africa. He paid those people wages that we'd laugh at but made those poachers filthy rich, by their standards, and turned them into ex-poachers.

The bottom line is criminals bent on breaking the law, regardless of reasons, are going to break the law and they'll break new laws that are trying to enforce existing laws. Do you think one poacher says to another, "Boy I'd sure like to go poach an elephant today but there are new laws in the US that ban interstate sale of ivory." Laughable.

It's the exact same reason why gun control measures won't stop violent crime......................CRIMINALS DON'T CARE ABOUT THE LAWS! They only care about their bottom line. Only innocent, law abiding citizens obey laws.

This will not save one single elephant's life. Not one. History and past experience have taught us that the best way to increase the value of something, is to ban it. Place further bans on elephant ivory and the price of it on the black market will sky rocket and it will be even more worthwhile for poachers to take it and traffic it. And it's the law abiding knifemakers who will lose out on a pretty substantial avenue of income and become assumed guilty by default. And still the poaching will continue.

As I've said before, the reasons behind this proposed ban and it's aim is horribly misguided.
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John animal rights activist never want to hear the truth

They just want to hear their own nonsense regurgitated over and over till its sounds true

We are not talking about Kansas here we are talking about Africa and a way of life that feeds people that could care less what a few misguides animal rights people spout off about

The bottom line is the only way to protect these animals is by a proper game management system that employs the poachers in other means

Why is this so hard for people to understand ? I'll tell you why. Because they do not want to hear this they want to think that their silly laws will stop a man half way across the world from doing all he knows.

unless given another avenue to feed his family they will kill every elephant on the planet.

The game departments will weaken because the silly donations from the animal rights side are not near enough to fund the war against illegal harvest (POACHING)

I'll say this one more time

If you where a land owner and elephants were decimating your lively hood making it impossible to feed your family WHAT WOULD YOU Do

You would turn a blind eye to poachers or you would shoot the raiding elephants yourself

UNLESS a hunting concession paid you to selectively harvest a few mature elephant and the proceeds enabled you to feed your family etc

Hell you would want the elephant on your land and encourage it and protect them if they had value to you

WHAT would you do if you had 7 wives and 18 kids all suffering malnutrition and you knew you could feed your family by poaching an elephant.

Many of you will say well I would not be in that predicament. Well many of you do not know the average indigenous African.

They are only living in the NOW not the future so they do what they have to do

The key is to employ the poacher in another capacity

This is not farming in many areas......this is not carrying your fancy bags on a photo safari. This is putting them to work in concessions and providing them MEAT

In Africa this means killing things. Not to many Whole Foods etc on every corner

Proper GAME MANAGEMENT is the key not western ideals of what should be

When you are dealing with people VS animals in the end animals will always loose

The old saying sacrifice the few for the many could not be truer in this case

Do you know that in Africa poachers are routinely shot by game officers in the war against poaching

Does anyone think if they are willing to risk life and limb any silly laws a bunch of people that are as far removed from the problem have constructed are gonna make a difference. If they do they can go back to their fairy tales and the Disney Channel

John thanks for listening :)
 
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Mark,

Its gotten to be quite a lot of pages and text here but If I remember correctly your idea here is to.

1, Stop any enfringment on the current Pre-ban currently legal ivory trade here in the USA.
2, To discuss possible awnsers and solutions to stopping the illegal poaching of elephants and the demand from other countries that drives it in the first place.

Are these statements I have made correct on your intent of this thread? If not? please clairfy?

Thanks.
 
JParanee said:
Because they do not want to hear this they want to think that their silly laws will stop a man half way across the world from doing all he knows.
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Or worse, they know full well what they are doing and will sell out their countrymen for the opportunity to be vindicated by new laws and regulations they can personally stomach.
 
i4Marc said:
Wake up people. Your rights are disappearing faster than the rain forests. The "fundamental transformation" which was promised is proceeding right on schedule. You are no longer innocent until PROVEN guilty. Now you are guilty until proven innocent. Welcome to the New World Order. Will the ivory grabbers even know enough to tell the difference between real ivory and synthetics?
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Hi Marc,
sort of ironic how u phrased that in my mind. I'm thinking like this on the issue. If we had since enough to protect the Rain forests like we should have been doing all along we would also be smart enough to keep & protect pour rights too imho. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case.

so instead of really safeguarding the rights we have and recovering the rights we once had, we wine & dine while moaning and jawing. Yet, still do not act in the interests of all of us because we are too caught up in the me, me, me syndrome . which = if i don't care about xyz and it's not affecting me adversely i can live with it. which is a shared sentiment among the masses. which then leads too - u kidding me no one wants to help me deal with this issue that i want to fix because it does not matter to them.

We will advance our humanity & secure useful rights when we are united. anything short of that is just wasted energy & folly imho.
thomas jefferson said "we get the rulers we deserve" i guess he knew then what we would be bitchin about now huh!
 
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If these guys were not employed by hunting concessions what do you think they would do to feed their families

What would you do if you were in a similar situation

They do not know farming they are trackers and skinners and know no other way

I am not condoning poaching acts but I am real enough and know enough African bushman to understand their needs

They do not care about anything other than taking care of themselves and family. This is the way of people trying to survive

They do not care about if it is legal or not

You will not discourage them

What ever price people will pay is good enough

If you make it hard to get than the price will increase because PEOPLE want what they want and will spend what ever it takes

Crocs are cities permit animals even thou they are a farmed animal and not endangered

Why are they a cities permitted animal. Because some body in another country got the bright idea that they should be even thou they are a renewable farmed asset

I'm sorry animals must be treated like an asset. If they have no value than regretfully in this day in age they have no VALUE

BtW

The girl in the Photo is a Game Scout

She rode along with us every day

She carried an AK 47

She used our vehicles to patrol, enlisting at the time my trackers skinners and crew to help her patrol and to regulate what I was doing

This is because the game departments are under funded

So the government knows that their best ally is the hunting concession operators who have skin in the game

they fight against poachers because poachers take all animals indiscriminate of age and size from their areas and hurt their business

Again it's all about money not what is right or wrong for elephants

Do you know that in certain parts of Africa the natives can not free range their animals

The government does not let them

Their cattle are emaciated and sickly. They are living in poverty and the lure of poaching is great

Again what would you do.

You would poach to feed your family

It's not all about just poaching elephants

It's about poaching meat

Some areas natives are not allowed to hunt

I have cut countless snares up

Have you ever seen a Giraffe with his head in a wire snare that was rigged 20 feet high in a tree

This is the tragedy of poverty and a corrupt world

A poacher killing an impala in a snare for meat is still a poacher and if caught might be shot. He needs the meat what is he to do

I have pictures somewhere of many children with bloated stomachs standing around villages as we distributed meat

Africa is one of the most magnificent and tragic places in the world

In one day I would see the most beautiful sight and than moments later the saddest sight

This is not just a story about elephant its a story about people surviving in conditions that none of you can ever imagine

Imagine your child sick dying in the dirt with no money for medicine. What would you do ?

I'd do what ever I had to do to put medicine and food in their bellies

The way I travel I do not see the tourist side of things

Where everything is an act

I see the real people

I see their children

I hear their stories

The plight of the elephant is tied to the plight of the the people of Africa
 
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jjtjr said:
banksy,

You say that you are not stirring up trouble. I see that as of now that you have 132 posts on Bladeforums.com and 23 of them are on this thread. That seems to be stirring in my opinion.

There is no one here who does not want to save elephants from extinction. We are trying to discuss the best method of doing that, and also not harming people who have always obeyed the law. Trying to find documentation on the ivory handle of a knife bought 20 years ago is not something that will be possible for most people. The proposed regulation will prevent owners from ever selling their legally purchased knives. How is that fair to anyone?

The proposed change takes away fundamental rights for people who happen to own legal ivory as of now. It will eliminate the right to due process, the assumption the we are innocent until proven guilty and private property cannot be seized by the government without just cause.

How does that help the cause of the elephant?

Jim Treacy
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Good grief Jim, what are you, the Post Police?!
Please explain how you will be presumed guilty and of what offence, as a result of proposed legislation. If you do not deal in illegal ivory, or sell legal elephant ivory out of state, what is the fear?
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Mark,

Its gotten to be quite a lot of pages and text here but If I remember correctly your idea here is to.

1, Stop any enfringment on the current Pre-ban currently legal ivory trade here in the USA.
2, To discuss possible awnsers and solutions to stopping the illegal poaching of elephants and the demand from other countries that drives it in the first place.

Are these statements I have made correct on your intent of this thread? If not? please clairfy?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

This is what I said in an earlier post.

My stand from the very start has been, lets find out how much the use of pre-act ivory in the US is contributing to the poaching of elephants in Africa, if the number is very low, which I think I have been showing, we are wasting our time. Next we have to take measures that are constitutional. I have put my money where my mouth is, I hired a lawyer and the proposal by the president is unconstitutional as written, so we are wasting our time as for as saving elephants is concerned. I think it is a great use of time and money to keep from eroding away our constitution.

I have said, I think there is a better way to save elephants in my post entitled "Alternate Solutions to an Ivory Ban" Some of you care enough about elephants to let the government take away the rights privileges and property of the rest of us but no one seems to care enough about them to actually do something that could actually make a difference on the ground in Africa.

The real danger as I see it, and the only thing that these kinds of band aid measures do is give some American people the feeling that they are doing something. All the while things are only getting worse for elephants. It's a false sense of security we get when we pass these regulations that only really restrict our actions, not the actions of people in Africa. The only other thing it may do is garner votes for the party backing these actions.

The other thing that concerns me is, if regulations and laws are able to be passed on elephant ivory, even it is is shown that the reg's will not help solve the problem, it will set a bad precedence. What will they try to pass these laws on next, just to send a message. Recently, a petition to enter walrus into the endangered species list was filed, even though it was admitted by the petitioners that there were no population problems that could be resolved by placing walrus on the list. That's a dangerous thing to allow to happen because it has far reaching implications that effect a lot of people unnecessarily. I view the elephant ivory thing similarly.

I said before if we knew that use of ivory in the States was shown to cause poaching in Africa, and tightening up of restrictions in the US would help, I would be for it. I have not seen any evidence to that effect and although there are well meaning people here that are for a ban, none of you have shown us anything to support your position. The best way to solve any problem is concentrate on the basis of the problem, people in Africa are slaughtering elephants.

Like I said before, in the end if there are no elephants or rhinos, and the next species is next, if all we did was pass some laws here to send a message to someone in China or Africa, we will not be able to say "We did everything we could do".

It will take a lot of us working together to solve a problem as big as this. We will not be able to work together if half of us are trying to take rights, privileges and personal property away from the other half.
 
2knife said:
The U.S. is one of the world's largest markets for illicit animal parts, officials said. Much of the ivory, rhino horn and other animal parts end up in Asia, but they are often processed in the U.S.

http://touch.latimes.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79266095/

The United States is the world’s second-largest market, behind China, for illegal wildlife artifacts. The legal sale of ivory in the United States and around the world helps to disguise black-market sales, U.S. prosecutors and other law enforcement officials say.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/nationa...666c5a-934e-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html

Keep a legal trade, for benefit perspective :
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2013/01/21/when-you-ban-the-sale-of-ivory-you-ban-elephants/
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Hi David, I told you I would contact these two journalist and try to find out where they got the erroneous quotes they used, It turns out they are from a USF&W site that says "the US is second behind China in trafficking of elephant ivory, both legal and illegal" which is true in a sense but misleading. We are second behind China in selling ivory, but as my research shows, I have sited it many times, we are way down the list on trafficking illicit elephant parts. In the years 2000 - 2008 we reported less than two tons of illicit ivory. In the years 2009-2013 it was so low it literally did not show up on the charts. We were number one in reporting seizures but the pieces being smaller pieces like jewelry and other trinkets, we ranked ninth in total kilos in the years 1989-2007, in the years after that we didn't have high enough number to chart. Although we still ranked highest out of 89 countries in reporting and fighting trafficking. I am still trying to find the actual number in the years 2008-2013.

They failed to put the words "legal and" in their quotes, misleading and disingenuous at best. I am contacting the author of the USF&W article, if I can, to ask him his sources and present my findings. I will let you know what I find.
 
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banksy said:
I am not misinformed. First, please read my post. I said proposal. I know it's not yet passed.
Again, there is no ban, proposed or otherwise, on ownership of legally held items. No-one is going to be criminalised as a result of the proposals. No-one is going to be made to give up or destroy any legal ivory. Please read the first post yourself. The proposed ban is on the sale of said items, across state lines. That is something completely different and shows that for some reason, you are desperate to put a spin on the facts and I have to wonder as to your agenda here.
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I am afraid you are just wrong, everyone else I have contacted reads the president's strategy as I do, don't know what else to tell you.
 
Some of you have said that you believe that to outlaw the use of elephant ivory in the US would send a message and help change the attitude about ivory around the world. I have disputed it with data from studies I sited. If you still believe what you say, can you show me a study, some data or statistics, not another persons opinion or something from a web site that gives an opinion, a study that supports your position.
 
banksy said:
I have given you a clear example of the effect of changing public opinion on wildlife trafficking. Not my opinion but a fact. If you wish to question it, please Google 'shark fin demand' or similar. To save you the bother, here is the Wiki entry; note particularly the last sentence. Please explain why the same should not apply to elephants?
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This is an example of a grass roots effort in China changing how people in China feel about and consume shark fins in China, not an example of how laws changed in the US changed the minds of people in China. It has been demonstrated in the news over and over that the people in China and many other countries really don't care what we think or do. I am not convinced.
 
Mark you and Joe have done an excellent job laying out the argument.

Ultimately we all have our own opinions but with the exception of South Africa and Namibia, Elephant poaching in all African countries is on the rise.

Not surprising when you look at the economic and political problems of those countries. The Chinese and other far eastern countries are fuelling the trade. Not the US.

Banning the local US sale of Ivory items such as Ivory handled knives made by Loveless, Herron and Moran, to name a few, is pointless. This will do nothing to stop the poaching in Africa and it may increase the smuggling of Ivory within the US.

As Joe and others have stated clearly, it is only by poverty reduction that poaching will cease. This is done by managing the animals as a resource and using them to fund preservation initiatives and local economic stimulation through eco-tourism and hunting.

Anyone who thinks that throwing money at the problem to help it is deluding themselves. Most of these countries are so corrupt that most of the money is "diverted" long before it gets to the right place.

Personally I would like to see the huge stocks of legal ivory and Rhino horn held here sold, and the funds used to help protect the creatures they came from by investing in greater eco tourism and conservation.

Mark, I look forward to seeing how you go with your initiative and I applaud you for your efforts.
 
Steven65 said:
Mark you and Joe have done an excellent job laying out the argument.

Ultimately we all have our own opinions but with the exception of South Africa and Namibia, Elephant poaching in all African countries is on the rise.

Not surprising when you look at the economic and political problems of those countries. The Chinese and other far eastern countries are fuelling the trade. Not the US.

Banning the local US sale of Ivory items such as Ivory handled knives made by Loveless, Herron and Moran, to name a few, is pointless. This will do nothing to stop the poaching in Africa and it may increase the smuggling of Ivory within the US.

As Joe and others have stated clearly, it is only by poverty reduction that poaching will cease. This is done by managing the animals as a resource and using them to fund preservation initiatives and local economic stimulation through eco-tourism and hunting.

Anyone who thinks that throwing money at the problem to help it is deluding themselves. Most of these countries are so corrupt that most of the money is "diverted" long before it gets to the right place.

Personally I would like to see the huge stocks of legal ivory and Rhino horn held here sold, and the funds used to help protect the creatures they came from by investing in greater eco tourism and conservation.

Mark, I look forward to seeing how you go with your initiative and I applaud you for your efforts.
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Excellent post My Friend
 
Doug C said:
Neither is shark fin soup.
Strawman much ? :)

Doug
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I actually think the comparison of ivory and shark fin a good one. The whole animal is wasted for the one thing, with disregard to any other value.

What has kept China or other ivory nations from creating its own domestic populations of elephants as "cattle" for the sole purpose of the ivory trade? Im just curious.. We as people tend to enslave everything else to our benefit. What is the fate of the Asian elephant in all this?
David
 
2knife said:
” In China “tigers are being farmed with the intention of supplying tiger parts in the future.”

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/treat-elephants-cattle

We live in grim times!
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This is horrible and I would hate to see this be the elephants future

But no one seems to care about Croc and gator farming

I for one do not have a problem with croc and gator farming but I despise circuses and zoos

We all have our hang ups :)
 
Good grief Jim, what are you, the Post Police?!
Please explain how you will be presumed guilty and of what offence, as a result of proposed legislation. If you do not deal in illegal ivory, or sell legal elephant ivory out of state, what is the fear?
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banksy, I am not the Post Police. When I see someone who rarely if ever posts in the Custom & Handmade Knives Forum, make 24 posts on a single thread, I think it is unusual. You of course can post in any Forum as often as you wish.

You ask how I would be presumed guilty and of what offense, as a result of the proposed legislation. At this time it is not legislation, but a rule change. This is from the White House Announcement page:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...y-combating-wildlife-trafficking-commercial-b

Significantly Restrict Domestic Resale of Elephant Ivory: We will finalize a proposed rule that will reaffirm and clarify that sales across state lines are prohibited, except for bona fide antiques, and will prohibit sales within a state unless the seller can demonstrate an item was lawfully imported prior to 1990 for African elephants and 1975 for Asian elephants, or under an exemption document.

Clarify the Definition of “Antique”: To qualify as an antique, an item must be more than 100 years old and meet other requirements under the Endangered Species Act. The onus will now fall on the importer, exporter, or seller to demonstrate that an item meets these criteria.

I own 2 knives that have elephant ivory handles, both purchased legally 15-20 years ago. Until now the rules were simple and sensible. Ivory imported legally, that is, prior to 1989 or after 1989 with CITES certification that international standards were met, could be sold. Moreover, the burden of proof fell on the government, which had to prove that the owner violated the law. That is the way America normally handles both criminal and civil offenses.

If these rules are adopted, I will not be able to sell these knives across state lines under any circumstances, or sell them within my home state unless I can find CITES paperwork on them. If I attempted to sell either knife, the rules change would hold me guilty unless I could prove my innocence, unlike existing laws.

Jim Treacy
 
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Just got back from the Little Rock show and reviewed the very interesting posts on this thread.

Mark and Joe have been posting some factual and thoughtful information and suggestions for we who value elephants as well as all wildlife, and who would like to see realistic steps taken to help African nations which are trying to manage and protect animals in the real world of expanding and hungry human populations.

Habitat loss, human competition, and China's market for illegal ivory are spelling doom for wild elephant populations, and a feel-good US ban on legal, pre-ban ivory will not help in the least to lessen the threat to wild elephants or other wildlife. That is a fact, and all the self-righteousness in the world will not change it.

For those who might like to fight back against the taking aspect of the proposed new total US ban, I would suggest joining Knife Rights at www.kniferights.org

Doug Ritter, of Knife Rights, who is leading a very successful effort to reform state and federal laws penalizing knife owners, is co-operating with two national organizations with national clout to address this executive order before it can take effect.

We can fight a two-front war. Maybe some help can go to both wildlife preservation, and our own legal rights preservation at the same time.

John
 
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