New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

John White said:
Just got back from the Little Rock show and reviewed the very interesting posts on this thread.

Mark and Joe have been posting some factual and thoughtful information and suggestions for we who value elephants as well as all wildlife, and who would like to see realistic steps taken to help African nations which are trying to manage and protect animals in the real world of expanding and hungry human populations.

Habitat loss, human competition, and China's market for illegal ivory are spelling doom for wild elephant populations, and a feel-good US ban on legal, pre-ban ivory will not help in the least to lessen the threat to wild elephants or other wildlife. That is a fact, and all the self-righteousness in the world will not change it.

For those who might like to fight back against the taking aspect of the proposed new total US ban, I would suggest joining Knife Rights at www.KnifeRights.com

Doug Ritter, of Knife Rights, who is leading a very successful effort to reform state and federal laws penalizing knife owners, is co-operating with two national organizations with national clout to address this executive order before it can take effect.

We can fight a two-front war. Maybe some help can go to both wildlife preservation, and our own legal rights preservation at the same time.

John
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Thank you John for the kind words

How was the show ?

How did my pappy look :)
 
John White said:
Just got back from the Little Rock show and reviewed the very interesting posts on this thread.

Mark and Joe have been posting some factual and thoughtful information and suggestions for we who value elephants as well as all wildlife, and who would like to see realistic steps taken to help African nations which are trying to manage and protect animals in the real world of expanding and hungry human populations.

Habitat loss, human competition, and China's market for illegal ivory are spelling doom for wild elephant populations, and a feel-good US ban on legal, pre-ban ivory will not help in the least to lessen the threat to wild elephants or other wildlife. That is a fact, and all the self-righteousness in the world will not change it.

For those who might like to fight back against the taking aspect of the proposed new total US ban, I would suggest joining Knife Rights at www.KnifeRights.com

Doug Ritter, of Knife Rights, who is leading a very successful effort to reform state and federal laws penalizing knife owners, is co-operating with two national organizations with national clout to address this executive order before it can take effect.

We can fight a two-front war. Maybe some help can go to both wildlife preservation, and our own legal rights preservation at the same time.

John
Click to expand...

Thanks John, I hit the Knife Rights link but it did not work, I will try it again tomorrow.
 
Joe,

The show was great, fantastic, huge bunch of knives. Pappy was out of control, as usual. I love the rascal!

Mark, I had the KnifeRights link wrong. It's( .org )I've corrected it.

For all us Liberals, (yes, I'm the dreaded Democrat, liberal, tree-hugging, animal loving, knife-making, aging hippie, proud American, you name it) you'll find the Knife Rights website shows an NRA type, hard conservative organization. The right wing knife types may love it, but even us lefties need help in fighting for certain rights. Be warned, fellow-travelers, the national organizations willing to help on this issue are in fact the NRA and Safari Club Int.....

John
 
Mark Knapp said:
You are right, the more we can do to discourage poaching the better, elephants are more important than anything made of ivory. But the mistake you are making is you think what we do in the US is going to discourage poaching in Africa. I think, I am proving that that is not the case. Please read some of the studies I posted.
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Mark & Joe and really everyone.
Thanks for clarifing your intentions with this post and I have stated that I agree that any new laws should be passes by true legislative action and not Decree by the anointed one concerning E ivory and legal hunting of Cape buffalo and other game is not really part of this discussion and I have no issues with it.

Also I am quite aware of the conplexities of the poverty and other problems that drive men to being poachers of endangered elephants and rhinos and if you put the oil Shiek that wants a Rhino horn poached for his Jambaya knife I would dispach him myself. There are many expates from S.A that live here on the west coast that i have discussed these problems with and even a few tourists from the continent that have stopped by my shop while on holiday or business so I do have a idea of the complexity of the problems.

My skin is think enough to take what has been directed at me and a few others but it seems that any suggestions of mine or others about building eco tourism, schools and business or other ideas have been scoffed at, belittled, called ignorant, fairy tales, Disney world Liberal, animal lover and the like.

So far the only other solution I have heard is to sell tags to kill the very animals we are supposedly trying to work together to save?

So guys from all of you ivory lovers that say you really love live elephants more, and you that state that you have never sold or purchase any ivory what other solutions do any of you have that may take help take the pressure off of these magnifcent Pachyderms & Rhinos?
 
Laurence you are misunderstanding my posts

I know you are not against hunting of some animals

My point is Africa is a very corrupt place and the only thing that will save these animals is to place a dollar figure on them that makes their existence worth while. I know sad but true. The greatest value of these animals is emphasized thru proper game management.

The indigenous people of Africa who are the main bulk of the poaching force need to be given another line of work so to speak

This should be the real question here

I have seen these animals flourish in properly managed units. This is my point

Please do not take my tone as offensive. I feel for both the elephant and the poachers more than the ivory trade. But just like the Somalia pirates.....desperate men do desperate things

To fix any problem you must attack the root of the problem

A ban on existing ivory does nothing. Demonizing sport hunters that pay the brunt of the fight against poaching also does not fix the problem

This is the cover of the current Sports Afield

a0f554f2a865b713882902852bd89a0d.jpg


There is still a huge amount of interest in hunting these animals and just because you and I have no desire to this does not mean that the people that do are not our best allies in fighting this fight

Would you rather see one mature bull killed, the meat utilized and the rest spared or an indiscriminate slaughter

Btw Poachers don't just kill elephants and Rhinos
 
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That's right some rich ass Hunter needed a rhino to complete his collection and he bucked up big time and saved many

This has been going on with Big Horn Sheep in this country in the putting the sheep back on the mountain programs

Yes people will spend a fortune to do what they want and they can't hunt them if they are poached to extinction
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Mark & Joe and really everyone.
Thanks for clarifing your intentions with this post and I have stated that I agree that any new laws should be passes by true legislative action and not Decree by the anointed one concerning E ivory and legal hunting of Cape buffalo and other game is not really part of this discussion and I have no issues with it.

Also I am quite aware of the conplexities of the poverty and other problems that drive men to being poachers of endangered elephants and rhinos and if you put the oil Shiek that wants a Rhino horn poached for his Jambaya knife I would dispach him myself. There are many expates from S.A that live here on the west coast that i have discussed these problems with and even a few tourists from the continent that have stopped by my shop while on holiday or business so I do have a idea of the complexity of the problems.

My skin is think enough to take what has been directed at me and a few others but it seems that any suggestions of mine or others about building eco tourism, schools and business or other ideas have been scoffed at, belittled, called ignorant, fairy tales, Disney world Liberal, animal lover and the like.

So far the only other solution I have heard is to sell tags to kill the very animals we are supposedly trying to work together to save?

So guys from all of you ivory lovers that say you really love live elephants more, and you that state that you have never sold or purchase any ivory what other solutions do any of you have that may take help take the pressure off of these magnifcent Pachyderms & Rhinos?
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Hi Laurence, I am pretty sure I didn't belittle you, and I know I didn't call you names.

I did write about alternative to the ivory ban in my two posts nos. 141 and 142 on page 8. I hope you will read them and let me know what you think.

Thanks Mark
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Mark & Joe and really everyone.
Thanks for clarifing your intentions with this post and I have stated that I agree that any new laws should be passes by true legislative action and not Decree by the anointed one concerning E ivory and legal hunting of Cape buffalo and other game is not really part of this discussion and I have no issues with it.

Also I am quite aware of the conplexities of the poverty and other problems that drive men to being poachers of endangered elephants and rhinos and if you put the oil Shiek that wants a Rhino horn poached for his Jambaya knife I would dispach him myself. There are many expates from S.A that live here on the west coast that i have discussed these problems with and even a few tourists from the continent that have stopped by my shop while on holiday or business so I do have a idea of the complexity of the problems.

My skin is think enough to take what has been directed at me and a few others but it seems that any suggestions of mine or others about building eco tourism, schools and business or other ideas have been scoffed at, belittled, called ignorant, fairy tales, Disney world Liberal, animal lover and the like.

So far the only other solution I have heard is to sell tags to kill the very animals we are supposedly trying to work together to save?

So guys from all of you ivory lovers that say you really love live elephants more, and you that state that you have never sold or purchase any ivory what other solutions do any of you have that may take help take the pressure off of these magnifcent Pachyderms & Rhinos?
Click to expand...

PS, I do remember saying your input was valuable to me and that you are probably a nice guy and your heart was in the right place
 
banksy said:
You exaggerated the numbers to "hundreds or thousands" without even checking, which illustrates my point; that you are placing a spin on whatever small anecdote you can find.

The report you quote estimates that the number of full and part time ivory craftsmen in the USA is "minimum 120". This was in 2007 and states there to be a falling trend. There is no figure quoted as to how many of these few craftsmen would be out of business (as you claimed) and how many would simply use other materials. Please provide better sources.

A couple of other points. You claim there is negligible illegal ivory trade passing through the US, yet the source you quoted states,



Which is correct?

Finally, your source also states,



So,we can't really know the size of the trade at all, and why should we not try to remove any detrimental effect on elephant populations, no matter how small?
In any case, the report apparently missed the one ton of illegal elephant ivory that was seized from the New York dealer in 2010 (I am making an assumption here that the trader had been in business since before the 2007 report).
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Banksy, I didn't exaggerate anything the report sighted 651 shops plus 250 craftsmen in 16 cities and towns, that pretty well satisfies my statement of "hundreds or thousands". If you counted all the towns on cities in the US it certainly would.
These are not anecdotes, they are studies.

I explained before that the study stated that the US reports more illicit trafficking of elephant ivory by far, but the the seizures in the US were of jewelry and trinkets not boxcar loads. So while we report more seizures, weight in ivory is way other countries. WE were ninth in the years 1989-2007, we seized less than 2000 kilos in the years 2000 to 2008, and in the years 2009-2013 the amount was so small that it did not show up on the charts, though we did still have more confiscations than all of the other 89 countries in the study. The pieces were small like jewelry people were bringing home from vacation, that's why they didn't amount to much weight.

The study you looked at ended in 2007 as you said, that's why it doesn't mention the case you mentioned in 2010, for those dates you need to look at the other study I sited.

It seems like you're not really reading anything because I have explained these same things over and over.
I don't think we are communicating well, I'm going to let the rest of the guys around here talk to you for a while
 
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Rhinoknives1 said:
My skin is think enough to take what has been directed at me and a few others but it seems that any suggestions of mine or others about building eco tourism, schools and business or other ideas have been scoffed at, belittled, called ignorant, fairy tales, Disney world Liberal, animal lover and the like.
Click to expand...

It was not my intention to insult you and if you feel I did, I apologise.

Please let me explain a few things to you without sounding patronising……..Mods it is not my intention to go political, I just want to explain a few things as basically and simply as I can.

You simply cannot appreciate the problems and realities of Sub-Saharan Africa without having seen it for yourself. It goes beyond any experience and logic you have.

In the rural areas of many of these countries almost nothing exists. There is no infrastructure to speak of and poverty of the worst kind is rife. Is it any wonder that people will poach animals in order to feed themselves and their families.

As a generalisation you cannot build schools in these areas because everything inside the school will be stolen almost immediately and there are no qualified teachers.
You cannot build businesses because no-one has any money to buy anything. You cannot build infrastructure and hospitals because there is no-one qualified to work in them and most of the time there is no power source. On top of this corrupt officials impose huge import duties and taxes as a way of lining their own pockets.

The only real investment in these areas comes from China as they build infrastructure to mine the raw materials. Only businesses tied to mining and raw materials for export can survive.

What happens when eco-tourism booms? This means game farms, game lodges and safari operators.

Operators acquire land in these rural areas. They MANAGE the land and the game on that land in order to maintain the population. Animals are guarded and observed. They then sell a tag to a US hunter who pays an exorbitant amount to travel to the lodge and shoot the animal. By doing this the hunter funds the operator………..What does this all mean in real terms?

Operators INVEST in the local land and area. They CONSTUCT lodges and living quarters. They EMPLOY locals in all aspects of their business, trackers, cooks, wardens etc……Locals need to be educated so they are trained to look after guests, educated in conservation as this is now their financial lifeline. Locals are now able to actually look after their families properly. Education and decent medical care usually follows this.

Lodges STIMULATE secondary business by being there. The lodges need supplies, they SUPPORT local businesses to purchase those supplies. Lodges need both road and air transport, those local industries are stimulated by this. Fuel is required so a gas station opens………etc…..etc.

Game lodges and safari operators do more for the local economy and combat poaching and trafficking far more effectively than anything else out there. All current anti-poaching initiatives are driven to a greater or lesser extent by these operators.

Is this a perfect solution to the problem? Of course not. There is none. There is only what there is to work with.

Banning 25 year old Ivory handled knives and existing Ivory in the US is pointless. By the time any "change in attitude" can occur in the US which hopefully will affect China, all the Elephants will be dead. Only managing the animals as a resource will save them.

Once again I apologise for any offence that I may have caused you.
 
jjtjr said:
banksy, I am not the Post Police. When I see someone who rarely if ever posts in the Custom & Handmade Knives Forum, make 24 posts on a single thread, I think it is unusual. You of course can post in any Forum as often as you wish.

You ask how I would be presumed guilty and of what offense, as a result of the proposed legislation. At this time it is not legislation, but a rule change. This is from the White House Announcement page:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...y-combating-wildlife-trafficking-commercial-b

Significantly Restrict Domestic Resale of Elephant Ivory: We will finalize a proposed rule that will reaffirm and clarify that sales across state lines are prohibited, except for bona fide antiques, and will prohibit sales within a state unless the seller can demonstrate an item was lawfully imported prior to 1990 for African elephants and 1975 for Asian elephants, or under an exemption document.

Clarify the Definition of “Antique”: To qualify as an antique, an item must be more than 100 years old and meet other requirements under the Endangered Species Act. The onus will now fall on the importer, exporter, or seller to demonstrate that an item meets these criteria.

I own 2 knives that have elephant ivory handles, both purchased legally 15-20 years ago. Until now the rules were simple and sensible. Ivory imported legally, that is, prior to 1989 or after 1989 with CITES certification that international standards were met, could be sold. Moreover, the burden of proof fell on the government, which had to prove that the owner violated the law. That is the way America normally handles both criminal and civil offenses.

If these rules are adopted, I will not be able to sell these knives across state lines under any circumstances, or sell them within my home state unless I can find CITES paperwork on them. If I attempted to sell either knife, the rules change would hold me guilty unless I could prove my innocence, unlike existing laws.

Jim Treacy
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Jim, if you read back you will see that the moderators decided that this subject would be aired in the Custom rather than the Political forum, and that is why I am posting here. I have made several posts because there is a lot to be said, and because there is a lot of 'smoke and mirrors' in this thread. I'm sorry if this is unusual or makes you feel uncomfortable. Once the subject has been aired, I will try to spread my posts more evenly if it would make you feel better.

As to the rest, your assessment is correct. Where we disagree, is on the criminalisation part. On the day the changes come in to effect, you will not be any more of a criminal than you were the day before, just by owning two ivory handled knives. Yes, if you break the new rules, you will have committed an offence, just like any other new law.

If you are stopped for some minor driving violation you are normally asked to prove your right to drive, that the vehicle is taxed, insured and legally owned. Changes are being made to legislation all the time, some of them relaxing existing measures and some tightening them (eg. switchblades). I can't see why there is a big deal with ivory, other than the fact that some people here have a vested interest.
 
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Mark Knapp said:
Banksy, I didn't exaggerate anything the report sighted 651 shops plus 250 craftsmen in 16 cities and towns, that pretty well satisfies my statement of "hundreds or thousands". If you counted all the towns on cities in the US it certainly would.
These are not anecdotes, they are studies.

I explained before that the study stated that the US reports more illicit trafficking of elephant ivory by far, but the the seizures in the US were of jewelry and trinkets not boxcar loads. So while we report more seizures, weight in ivory is way other countries. WE were ninth in the years 1989-2007, we seized less than 2000 kilos in the years 2000 to 2008, and in the years 2009-2013 the amount was so small that it did not show up on the charts, though we did still have more confiscations than all of the other 89 countries in the study. The pieces were small like jewelry people were bringing home from vacation, that's why they didn't amount to much weight.

The study you looked at ended in 2007 as you said, that's why it doesn't mention the case you mentioned in 2010, for those dates you need to look at the other study I sited.

It seems like you're not really reading anything because I have explained these same things over and over.
I don't think we are communicating well, I'm going to let the rest of the guys around here talk to you for a while
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Mark, you are mistaking my disagreement with your position for my ability to read. The problem is you are cherry picking bits and pieces from different reports to build a case. You still have not answered my original question, which was to show how many businesses would have to close as a result of the changes, and how many craftsmen would simply switch to other materials. At this point, I have to conclude that you have not answered because you cannot and that your claim of hundreds or thousands of businesses closing is scaremongering at best.

If you walk through Chinatown in San Francisco you will see many "hand carved ivory" pieces of all sizes for sale in the store windows. From the price tickets, these cannot be elephant ivory, so I cannot think of any reason why the craftsmen you are so concerned about can't easily work with other materials, as could knife makers, pool cue makers and so on.

The reason we are "not communicating well" is that you are still fixated on illegal ivory, and failing to address my main point, which is that times and attitudes are changing, and that one of the things needed in a broad-based approach to saving the elephant, is a change in perception of ivory from something valuable and desirable to something, if not worthless, then at least worth less. Meanwhile, the trade in old ivory supports the price of all ivory, just as a thriving used car market supports the sales figures of new vehicles. You are contributing to this in a small way, unfortunately.

Your arguments are blinkered and full of holes, which I think is why you wish to portray me as having 'no grasp on the situation', or 'not reading anything' and so on. That's fine.

Of course, I am very much a minority voice in this forum, but you will not find that to be the case in a wider, less incentive-driven context. To quote again from 'America's leading ivory buyer, seller and supplier", "the opponents of ivory are on the right side of the issue and history." They, at least, have an understanding of the issues and of the groundswell of public opinion.

I suggest you continue to debate the subject with those who agree with you; that way you can be sure of being right. You have a good day too.
 
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Steven65 said:
It was not my intention to insult you and if you feel I did, I apologise.

Please let me explain a few things to you without sounding patronising……..Mods it is not my intention to go political, I just want to explain a few things as basically and simply as I can.

You simply cannot appreciate the problems and realities of Sub-Saharan Africa without having seen it for yourself. It goes beyond any experience and logic you have.

In the rural areas of many of these countries almost nothing exists. There is no infrastructure to speak of and poverty of the worst kind is rife. Is it any wonder that people will poach animals in order to feed themselves and their families.

As a generalisation you cannot build schools in these areas because everything inside the school will be stolen almost immediately and there are no qualified teachers.
You cannot build businesses because no-one has any money to buy anything. You cannot build infrastructure and hospitals because there is no-one qualified to work in them and most of the time there is no power source. On top of this corrupt officials impose huge import duties and taxes as a way of lining their own pockets.

The only real investment in these areas comes from China as they build infrastructure to mine the raw materials. Only businesses tied to mining and raw materials for export can survive.

What happens when eco-tourism booms? This means game farms, game lodges and safari operators.

Operators acquire land in these rural areas. They MANAGE the land and the game on that land in order to maintain the population. Animals are guarded and observed. They then sell a tag to a US hunter who pays an exorbitant amount to travel to the lodge and shoot the animal. By doing this the hunter funds the operator………..What does this all mean in real terms?

Operators INVEST in the local land and area. They CONSTUCT lodges and living quarters. They EMPLOY locals in all aspects of their business, trackers, cooks, wardens etc……Locals need to be educated so they are trained to look after guests, educated in conservation as this is now their financial lifeline. Locals are now able to actually look after their families properly. Education and decent medical care usually follows this.

Lodges STIMULATE secondary business by being there. The lodges need supplies, they SUPPORT local businesses to purchase those supplies. Lodges need both road and air transport, those local industries are stimulated by this. Fuel is required so a gas station opens………etc…..etc.

Game lodges and safari operators do more for the local economy and combat poaching and trafficking far more effectively than anything else out there. All current anti-poaching initiatives are driven to a greater or lesser extent by these operators.

Is this a perfect solution to the problem? Of course not. There is none. There is only what there is to work with.

Banning 25 year old Ivory handled knives and existing Ivory in the US is pointless. By the time any "change in attitude" can occur in the US which hopefully will affect China, all the Elephants will be dead. Only managing the animals as a resource will save them.

Once again I apologise for any offence that I may have caused you.
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Steven, your argument is well made and I agree with what you say.
On your final point, if we imagine a best case scenario in which the elephant is saved from extinction in the wild, I see nothing wrong with working to change attitudes to ivory as part of a broad-based strategy, which could only help to promote a sustainable existence for the elephant going into the future. It's hard to picture a credible campaign to end poaching while continuing to make trinkets from ivory (whether old or new) back home.
 
banksy said:
Steven, your argument is well made and I agree with what you say.
On your final point, if we imagine a best case scenario in which the elephant is saved from extinction in the wild, I see nothing wrong with working to change attitudes to ivory as part of a broad-based strategy, which could only help to promote a sustainable existence for the elephant going into the future. It's hard to picture a credible campaign to end poaching while continuing to make trinkets from ivory (whether old or new) back home.
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Your point is a valid one but ultimately I really do not believe that it will make any difference whatsoever. There has been an aggressive CITES ban for years, the Elephant population is dying ever faster. A superficial US ban and transfer restriction is, in my opinion, window dressing.

The US is not the destination for the poached tusks, China is. Ultimately the problem must be addressed at the source and with the enabler…….China.

I never comment on internal US policies because I am not an American and I don't pay taxes there. But I cannot help but think, that this is just another feel good policy to give the appearance of actually doing something at almost zero cost to the US taxpayer.
 
J. Doyle said:
Here's the real problem, the poachers don't care about rules and regulations. As Joe Paranee stated, a dollar or a scrap of meat is their bottom line. Much wisdom can be found in Joe's posts if people would bother to read them and think about it. Those poachers don't care about poaching if they're offered legitimate jobs with good steady pay, like as trackers and processors for professional hunters and guides. Read some books by Peter Hathaway Capstick. He covers this very issue in many of his books about being a professional hunter in Africa. He paid those people wages that we'd laugh at but made those poachers filthy rich, by their standards, and turned them into ex-poachers.

The bottom line is criminals bent on breaking the law, regardless of reasons, are going to break the law and they'll break new laws that are trying to enforce existing laws. Do you think one poacher says to another, "Boy I'd sure like to go poach an elephant today but there are new laws in the US that ban interstate sale of ivory." Laughable.

It's the exact same reason why gun control measures won't stop violent crime......................CRIMINALS DON'T CARE ABOUT THE LAWS! They only care about their bottom line. Only innocent, law abiding citizens obey laws.

This will not save one single elephant's life. Not one. History and past experience have taught us that the best way to increase the value of something, is to ban it. Place further bans on elephant ivory and the price of it on the black market will sky rocket and it will be even more worthwhile for poachers to take it and traffic it. And it's the law abiding knifemakers who will lose out on a pretty substantial avenue of income and become assumed guilty by default. And still the poaching will continue.

As I've said before, the reasons behind this proposed ban and it's aim is horribly misguided.
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JParanee said:
John animal rights activist never want to hear the truth

They just want to hear their own nonsense regurgitated over and over till its sounds true

We are not talking about Kansas here we are talking about Africa and a way of life that feeds people that could care less what a few misguides animal rights people spout off about

The bottom line is the only way to protect these animals is by a proper game management system that employs the poachers in other means

Why is this so hard for people to understand ? I'll tell you why. Because they do not want to hear this they want to think that their silly laws will stop a man half way across the world from doing all he knows.

unless given another avenue to feed his family they will kill every elephant on the planet.

The game departments will weaken because the silly donations from the animal rights side are not near enough to fund the war against illegal harvest (POACHING)

I'll say this one more time

If you where a land owner and elephants were decimating your lively hood making it impossible to feed your family WHAT WOULD YOU Do

You would turn a blind eye to poachers or you would shoot the raiding elephants yourself

UNLESS a hunting concession paid you to selectively harvest a few mature elephant and the proceeds enabled you to feed your family etc

Hell you would want the elephant on your land and encourage it and protect them if they had value to you

WHAT would you do if you had 7 wives and 18 kids all suffering malnutrition and you knew you could feed your family by poaching an elephant.

Many of you will say well I would not be in that predicament. Well many of you do not know the average indigenous African.

They are only living in the NOW not the future so they do what they have to do

The key is to employ the poacher in another capacity

This is not farming in many areas......this is not carrying your fancy bags on a photo safari. This is putting them to work in concessions and providing them MEAT

In Africa this means killing things. Not to many Whole Foods etc on every corner

Proper GAME MANAGEMENT is the key not western ideals of what should be

When you are dealing with people VS animals in the end animals will always loose

The old saying sacrifice the few for the many could not be truer in this case

Do you know that in Africa poachers are routinely shot by game officers in the war against poaching

Does anyone think if they are willing to risk life and limb any silly laws a bunch of people that are as far removed from the problem have constructed are gonna make a difference. If they do they can go back to their fairy tales and the Disney Channel

John thanks for listening :)
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Steven65 said:
It was not my intention to insult you and if you feel I did, I apologise.

Please let me explain a few things to you without sounding patronising……..Mods it is not my intention to go political, I just want to explain a few things as basically and simply as I can.

You simply cannot appreciate the problems and realities of Sub-Saharan Africa without having seen it for yourself. It goes beyond any experience and logic you have.

In the rural areas of many of these countries almost nothing exists. There is no infrastructure to speak of and poverty of the worst kind is rife. Is it any wonder that people will poach animals in order to feed themselves and their families.

As a generalisation you cannot build schools in these areas because everything inside the school will be stolen almost immediately and there are no qualified teachers.
You cannot build businesses because no-one has any money to buy anything. You cannot build infrastructure and hospitals because there is no-one qualified to work in them and most of the time there is no power source. On top of this corrupt officials impose huge import duties and taxes as a way of lining their own pockets.

The only real investment in these areas comes from China as they build infrastructure to mine the raw materials. Only businesses tied to mining and raw materials for export can survive.

What happens when eco-tourism booms? This means game farms, game lodges and safari operators.

Operators acquire land in these rural areas. They MANAGE the land and the game on that land in order to maintain the population. Animals are guarded and observed. They then sell a tag to a US hunter who pays an exorbitant amount to travel to the lodge and shoot the animal. By doing this the hunter funds the operator………..What does this all mean in real terms?

Operators INVEST in the local land and area. They CONSTUCT lodges and living quarters. They EMPLOY locals in all aspects of their business, trackers, cooks, wardens etc……Locals need to be educated so they are trained to look after guests, educated in conservation as this is now their financial lifeline. Locals are now able to actually look after their families properly. Education and decent medical care usually follows this.

Lodges STIMULATE secondary business by being there. The lodges need supplies, they SUPPORT local businesses to purchase those supplies. Lodges need both road and air transport, those local industries are stimulated by this. Fuel is required so a gas station opens………etc…..etc.

Game lodges and safari operators do more for the local economy and combat poaching and trafficking far more effectively than anything else out there. All current anti-poaching initiatives are driven to a greater or lesser extent by these operators.

Is this a perfect solution to the problem? Of course not. There is none. There is only what there is to work with.

Banning 25 year old Ivory handled knives and existing Ivory in the US is pointless. By the time any "change in attitude" can occur in the US which hopefully will affect China, all the Elephants will be dead. Only managing the animals as a resource will save them.

Once again I apologise for any offence that I may have caused you.
Click to expand...

Fantastic posts! :thumbup:
 
I think what is not being picked up here by many is that by trying to devalue ivory all that is being accomplished is less funds going into the system to help fight poaching

As pointed out here by many who have been there and seen what is going on first hand is the strife and poverty in rural Africa

Even if the ivory is worth less it will still be worth something and something is better than nothing to a poacher

The black market will still move the ivory and just pay the poachers less using the crack downs as a reason to do so

So the poachers will have to poach more to make up the difference. This is one scenario..... any other scenarios are just as bleak

Poverty and sustenance are what is driving the demise of these creatures

Placing no monetary value on them is just that......in effect making their preservation worthless

As funds dwindle the animals will be left with less protection enabling the poachers to work unimpeded

No one commented about the 350000 thousand dollars generated off of the one sale of a Rhino Tag above...... Why is it not what you wanted to see ?

That one auction will do more to thwart poaching than any silly ban on ivory over the next few months

It will put men and equipment in the field

As Steven pointed out I do not think most people truly understand what is going on in Africa
 
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