New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

Mr. Banksy-

You may be right, there could be few full time craftsmen that would be put out of business. I'm not sure there is a good way of getting an accurate count, perhaps the actual number itself doesn't hold significant meaning. Instead, I think what I find myself wondering about is how much the minority matters?

You said towards the end of your post that this could result in a monetary loss for even the part time knife makers (I would add to that other part time craftsmen who use ivory). You ended with "I think we have to accept that." This is the difficult statement for me. When I am on the side of whatever rule, law, etc., I find it very easy to say or have the same sentiments. When I agree with it and would not be out any money (let's face it-when it hits us in the pocket it matters more), I can more easily disregard the objections of those on the other side. Sometimes I struggle to be sympathetic to others (ask my wife...), but again, I ask-how much do we care about the minority that is effected?

There has been much talk of finding a way for poachers to meet the needs of their families so they won't go shoot an elephant for its tusks. If craftsmen enjoy working with ivory and wouldn't seek different materials on their own, perhaps those with similar opinions to your own could work towards helping them transition out of the trade? Farmers globally are subsidized by governments to grow crops of wheat, etc. instead of drug crops that pay them more. Were the opinions or business practices changed of those craftsmen in a positive way (instead of regulated out of business), I'd imagine the change of opinion you seek would be that much further ahead. Just think of someone previously selling elephant ivory now educating past clients with a positive view on it all.

Clearly, there is no magic bullet or solution-as previously said, it's a very complex problem. I'm thankful for the discussion and that I live in a place where even the minority voices get to be heard. Sometimes it seems they can tend to be the loudest or get the most attention. I believe this topic to be one that stirs feelings in many people, on both sides. Thankfully, one thing all agree on is looking toward a long term solution of no poached elephants. And as is the case in general, "the devil is in the details".

Mr. Knapp-

Thank you for taking so much time in researching and posting your findings. And thank you for looking into the WildAid site and sharing it here. Sounds like they've already got things going. The avenues of reaching the goal can be different and people can disagree on how it should be done. I think you (and others here) are a great example of someone concerned about what's happening who does something about it.


Jeremy

Thank you Jeremy, I was going to say to Banksy that, no longer being able to use ivory is an easy thing for him to accept because he is not giving anything up.

If I use ivory on my knives (I am a full time maker, I know many other full time makers) I have to make about fifty of them a year to live in my lavish life style. I drive an '84 flatbed pickup, I live in my shop and my sheet rock is not finished. (I'm not complaining just trying to put it into perspective)

If I don't use ivory on my knives, I would have to make 150 knives a year to achieve the same income I do now. I can only make so making knives, it takes between fifty and eighty hours for me to make a knife, I have a three year backlog. I said way earlier in this thread that I do not use elephant ivory, I prefer fossil (ancient) walrus ivory and mammoth over it, but if legal elephant ivory is taken out of the mix, there are less materials around for all of us to choose from.

The lack of elephant ivory in the supply stream would be good for my handle supply business (my wife mostly takes care of that), demand for fossil walrus and mammoth ivory would go up, I could realize more return on my investment of time and cash. I suppose if I was a greedy kind of guy, I would be all for my competitors in the elephant ivory business to be gone. However, I think the precedence that could be set by the President's use of the executive order in this way will not be good for any of us.

Many people believe that if the proposed elephant ivory ban goes through, the next step will be fossil walrus and mammoth ivory, the people on the President's committee advocate for that.

People that come to Alaska and shop for knives do not want to see wooden handled knives, I can't sell a wooden handled knife to save my life, by any maker, in my store.

Thanks again for having the ability to see both sides.
 
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After giving up my internet search for numbers of people that will be affected by the proposed tightening of the ban, I decided to approach it from another angle. I contacted the major elephant ivory dealers for their' insight. So for I have heard from one of them.

David Warther, this is what he had to say;

"Mark,

There are many thousands of people who work pre-ban elephant ivory on a regular basis in the US. A fairly accurate number would be 3,000 + . Of these there are about a dozen people or so who depend upon antique/pre-ban ivory for a livelihood whereas most folks who utilize the material are not dependent upon it - they will use a different material should the ban be put into effect.

There will be a public comment period that everyone should participate in and I will email you about when/how/ etc. when that time comes. Currently the schedule looks like the public comment period will be May-June and the law put into effect thereafter unless the public outcry is given consideration.

Sincerely ,

David Warther"

People will choose to take this however they like, I hope to hear from the others soon.
 
Jeremy,
I understand. It's a constantly changing world, for better or worse.
In my own field of photography, there was, as you know, a 'digital revolution'. The prices paid for photography dropped like a stone and many photographers, film processing labs and big corporations like Polaroid and Kodak were put out of business as everyman became a digital photographer.
I'm not complaining; one adapts and survives as best one can.
 
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Jeremy,
I understand. It's a constantly changing world, for better or worse.
In my own field of photography, there was, as you know, a 'digital revolution'. The prices paid for photography dropped like a stone and many photographers, film processing labs and big corporations like Polaroid and Kodak were put out of business as everyman became a digital photographer.
I'm not complaining; one adapts and survives as best one can.

You were outdone by technology outside of your control, for which I agree is unfortunate. What is proposed here, which you shrug off as "I suffered, you should too", is to screw more people deliberately and without just cause because you happen to personally side with the case.

Now that is classy.

It seems like someone got a message to them about shark fins, it is my how that we could find out what they did right and do that, maybe get their' help. It's a possibility, no?


That was largely domestic personalities heavily influenced by western life. There will be money to be made in Ivory, unlike shark-fin. I am choosing not to play with that particular example. Jackie Chan petitioning the Chinese people to stop eating it, is not and will not be regarded in the same way as Ivory will be. Just my personal belief.


I did want to add, that I noticed some of my last posts look like one liners. It is not my intention. :D
 
What is proposed here, which you shrug off as "I suffered, you should too", is to screw more people deliberately and without just cause because you happen to personally side with the case.
Now that is classy.

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.
And with that, I'm out of here.
 
Laurence-

I'm pretty uneducated about the situation, but the campaign Mr. Banksy brought up in regards to the shark fin soup issue that was based out of California might be worth checking into? If they already have a model and contacts, perhaps the ball could get more easily rolling? It's certainly a trend now for celebrities and others in the public eye to help with such things and people seem to follow a lot of what they do. I imagine the people in China (like most places) identify more with someone from their own culture, making the change of opinion more likely than coming from a foreigner? Just a thought.

Jeremy

Jeremy,
Thanks for adding in some constructive comments and the Org the banksy noted that was involved with changing perception in china http://www.wildaid.org/ has the NBA player I was referring to about the Shark Fin issue, walking a baby elephant and some pictures with Rhinos. I am going to get involved with these people and see what I can do to help.

Any group of peoples can be reached effectively if done so with education in a polite, sincere and constructive manner.

The key will be reaching the younger chinese people and showing them that the elephants are worth much more alive in their habitat that their ivory will be sitting on a shelve in their office or living room and rhino horns are much better on the rhinos than used in powdered form as an ancient medicine that has no scientific basis for being a Viagra type medicine.

Science shows that it gives the guy a urinary tract infection so that he gets a stiff one. LOL

Anyone else have any constructive comments?
 
Yeah, that's exactly what I said.
And with that, I'm out of here.

If this means he is not going to play in this sand box any more, that would be a shame, he was my greatest antagonist but he did make a worthwhile contribution. I learned more by looking for answers for him than I have anyone else for a long time. I don't think he learned anything by talking to me though.

Besides the implications of the people that will have to go out of the ivory business and those that will have to use substitute materials, I think we need to consider the people that own all of the ivory objects that will become worthless if the President's strategy goes through as written. Some knowledgeable people estimate millions of people that have ivory objects of one kind or another will have some pretty valuable things become value-less. It will depend a lot on how the new laws define "demonstrate" when it come time to demonstrate how old the ivory is. Even if we can demonstrate the age of the ivory, it will only be able to be sold in ones own state, if passed as written. That will have a huge impact on those that bought ivory objects as an investment.
 
The shark fin comparison does not apply here. Only 6 states have banned shark fin. Just because you don't see them in the China Town market in San Francisco does not mean they are not there. They are simply sold underground. US census bureau , Import Division states 57 metric tons imported in 2013. Unchanged for 3 years.
China destroyed 6 tons of ivory. This is a minuscule drop in the bucket of their stockpile.

Shark fin or ivory What China's media says is controlled by the government.
 
The shark fin comparison does not apply here. Only 6 states have banned shark fin. Just because you don't see them in the China Town market in San Francisco does not mean they are not there. They are simply sold underground. US census bureau , Import Division states 57 metric tons imported in 2013. Unchanged for 3 years.
China destroyed 6 tons of ivory. This is a minuscule drop in the bucket of their stockpile.


Shark fin or ivory What China's media says is controlled by the government.

Yes, there is a host of illegal animals and their parts sold in china towns across the country and other areas as well so we are not just bashing them. That could possibly include poached green ivory as well?

Yes, the task at hand seems overwhelming, especially since china's media is controlled by the state. Having Yao Ming and other large profile celibs is the only way that the message can start to get through.

I chose to do what I can to address these problems no matter how overwhelming the task and limited my resources my seem in comparison to the size of the problems. When people work together their efforts are multiplied.

We each make our choices.
 
I think the shark fin example is a fine one for how the mindset of the people can be changed from within a country to help solve a problem there. I don't think changing laws here had any affect or could have any affect over there.

I think I have shown that there is pretty close to no problem with green ivory coming into the country, it would be different if some states were importing it and some others weren't, then you would have the possibility of interstate smuggling as may be the case with shark fins.

I think the people at Wildaid are doing some very good work. I'm investigating the idea of raising some real money for them.

More about that later.
 
If this means he is not going to play in this sand box any more, that would be a shame, he was my greatest antagonist but he did make a worthwhile contribution. I learned more by looking for answers for him than I have anyone else for a long time. I don't think he learned anything by talking to me though.

Besides the implications of the people that will have to go out of the ivory business and those that will have to use substitute materials, I think we need to consider the people that own all of the ivory objects that will become worthless if the President's strategy goes through as written. Some knowledgeable people estimate millions of people that have ivory objects of one kind or another will have some pretty valuable things become value-less. It will depend a lot on how the new laws define "demonstrate" when it come time to demonstrate how old the ivory is. Even if we can demonstrate the age of the ivory, it will only be able to be sold in ones own state, if passed as written. That will have a huge impact on those that bought ivory objects as an investment.

Mark,
I was just being a antagonist!;)

A paraphrase from some writings from the Dai Lama, Our adversaries teach use that most about ourselves if we are willing to learn from them.

Hopefully Banksy will return. he was the one I believe that posted the link for wild aid org. and he did gave the Shark's Fin Soup example.

By the way, I ate sharks Fin Soup in the 80's and shortly after words learned that they kill the apex predator, Hammerheads in this case, to cut off the dorsal fin and throw it back for the animal to dies a slow death. The next time I went to that restaurant I spoke with the manager and he said, I had no idea? They stopped serving it shortly after. What we buy and what we eat can make a diff!

Please keep me/us posted on what you come up with by working with http://www.wildaid.org/ and I will do the same.
 
I have been watching this discussion from the beginning and decided to wait to chime in till it slowed down. I am not a knife maker but a leather smith and don't know what I would do if they banned certain types of leather. I do have great collections of knives with and without ivory . The ivory is Walrus and Mammoth and I want to thank Mark for all the GOOD input as to what is happing for good or bad and backing it up with true facts. . I can understand why he is so concerned with this . It would be a real loss to people not to be able to see or have a beautiful knife or item from Mark or other artists to cherish just because he couldn't make it out of these materials. It would be like saying you cant own or buy a painting made with oil paints . It would surly limit the finished product. also I do not own a knife of Marks but I would love to . They are works of art and as a old person I get great joy looking at things of the great beauty he creates . When I was younger I over looked this type of art completely. As I got old I can say this is what helps make the golden years because as your health gets bad as mine has you give up so many things that you are not able to do and replace them with items like knives etc to fill the voids . Thanks Mark. Terry alias KT Kid Terico
 
I have been watching this discussion from the beginning and decided to wait to chime in till it slowed down. I am not a knife maker but a leather smith and don't know what I would do if they banned certain types of leather. I do have great collections of knives with and without ivory . The ivory is Walrus and Mammoth and I want to thank Mark for all the GOOD input as to what is happing for good or bad and backing it up with true facts. . I can understand why he is so concerned with this . It would be a real loss to people not to be able to see or have a beautiful knife or item from Mark or other artists to cherish just because he couldn't make it out of these materials. It would be like saying you cant own or buy a painting made with oil paints . It would surly limit the finished product. also I do not own a knife of Marks but I would love to . They are works of art and as a old person I get great joy looking at things of the great beauty he creates . When I was younger I over looked this type of art completely. As I got old I can say this is what helps make the golden years because as your health gets bad as mine has you give up so many things that you are not able to do and replace them with items like knives etc to fill the voids . Thanks Mark. Terry alias KT Kid Terico

Well thanks Kid, that's pretty nice of you, with all you've been through, you deserve to enjoy some good stuff.
 
Even if we can demonstrate the age of the ivory, it will only be able to be sold in ones own state, if passed as written. That will have a huge impact on those that bought ivory objects as an investment.

This is what upsets me the most about the proposed ban.

Thanks for your all work and leading the charge, Mark. I've enjoyed reading your posts, not only for content, but for the way you politely conduct yourself especially when things turn negative. You have my full respect and we've never even met. :thumbup:
 
This is what upsets me the most about the proposed ban.

Thanks for your all work and leading the charge, Mark. I've enjoyed reading your posts, not only for content, but for the way you politely conduct yourself especially when things turn negative. You have my full respect and we've never even met. :thumbup:

Thanks Bud, I always try to be polite but as we all know it is easy to be taken the wrong way on here. Without inflection in your voice to help, it's easy to come off harsh, dismissive or impolite. I think my main problem is I come off as arrogant or some kind of know it all. I wish I could find a way to do it better, but whenever you try to share something you have learned and there is a lot to cover, in the interest of brevity things don't come out like you hope. I'm really not that way, honest:D:D
 
The next chapter starts, this is a preview of things to come, apparently, we are not going to have to wait for a public comment period or congressional approval. This is only about importation of antiques but it gives us an idea about how serious they are.

www.fws.gov
 
"The ESA requires that any person claiming the benefit of a statutory exemption has the burden of proving that the exemption is
applicable (16 U.S.C. 1539 (g)) so the burden of proof is on the importer, exporter, or seller to definitively show that an item meets all of the criteria under the exception."

The word "definitely" in the above quote spells trouble for all of us. That will largely be open to the officer's interpretation when a situation comes up.

Also, unless I'm reading wrong, this ends the transfer of ownership, even as a gift, across state lines if the item was sold for any type of financial gain since 1976. Which I guess we already knew that except for part about "importing" and "exporting" (which could mean even giving as a gift an heirloom to a relative in another state) if the item was sold for proffit since 1976. Maybe I misunderstood, but it looks to be how it reads to me.

And since when is the definition of 'antique' 100 years old or more. I was under the impression that 'antique' was 50 years. 'Antique' for cars, at least here in Michigan, is 26 years. So now they can just change the definitions of words to fit their agenda too?

Yeah, this can't miss. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
"The ESA requires that any person claiming the benefit of a statutory exemption has the burden of proving that the exemption is
applicable (16 U.S.C. 1539 (g)) so the burden of proof is on the importer, exporter, or seller to definitively show that an item meets all of the criteria under the exception."

The word "definitely" in the above quote spells trouble for all of us. That will largely be open to the officer's interpretation when a situation comes up.

Also, unless I'm reading wrong, this ends the transfer of ownership, even as a gift, across state lines if the item was sold for any type of financial gain since 1976. Which I guess we already knew that except for part about "importing" and "exporting" (which could mean even giving as a gift an heirloom to a relative in another state) if the item was sold for proffit since 1976. Maybe I misunderstood, but it looks to be how it reads to me.

And since when is the definition of 'antique' 100 years old or more. I was under the impression that 'antique' was 50 years. 'Antique' for cars, at least here in Michigan, is 26 years. So now they can just change the definitions of words to fit their agenda too?

Yeah, this can't miss. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It goes on to define what "definitely" means lower down

"How does the U.S. importer document the identification of the species used in an ESA antique?
The person claiming the benefit of the ESA antique exception must definitively prove the
identity of the species of which the article is composed in whole or in part. Such proof can be in
the form of bona fide DNA analysis, a qualified appraisal, or other documentation that
definitively demonstrates the identification of the species through a detailed provenance of the
article.
How does the U.S. importer document the age of an ESA antique?
The person claiming the benefit of the ESA exception must definitively prove that the article is
not less than 100 years of age. Such proof can be in the form of bona fide testing using
scientifically approved aging methods by a laboratory or facility accredited to conduct such tests,
a qualified appraisal, or another method that documents the age by establishing the origin of the
article. The provenance may be determined through a detailed history of the article, including
but not limited to family photos, ethnographic fieldwork or other information that authenticates
the article and assigns the work to a known period of time or, where possible, to a known artist.
How does the U.S. exporter or seller within the United States document that their article meets
the ESA exception for antiques?
The burden of proof is on the exporter or seller to show that the antique article was previously
imported and met all of the criteria under the ESA exception. See Section 2 above for the
requirements to import an article made from an ESA listed species and the type of
documentation that was required upon import. Notarized statements or affidavits by the exporter
or seller, or a CITES pre-Convention certificate alone are not adequate proof that the article meets the ESA exception.
What will the Service accept as a qualified appraisal?
An appraisal submitted as documentary evidence of an article’s eligibility under the ESA antique
exception must meet the following criteria:
•
The person executing the appraisa
l either has earned an appraisal designation from a
recognized professional appraiser organization for demonstrated competency in
appraising the type of property being appraised or can demonstrates verifiable education
and experience in assessing the type
of property being appraised.
•
The person executing the appraisal is not the importer, exporter, buyer, recipient or seller
of the article; does not benefit from the results of the appraisal (other than for the cost of
the appraisal); is not a party to any of the transactions associated with the article
(including any person acting as an agent for the transaction); is not an employee of any
business that is a party to the transaction; and is not related to the person claiming the
exception."
 
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