Newbie bought 1095. Need advice on quench. Probably beating a dead horse... sorry.

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Feb 10, 2014
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Hey guys. I am brand new to knife making and I bought 1095 after doing some research saying it was a good beginner steel. After ordering I did some more research and discovered how quick the quench has to be for 1095. I am a poor college student and can barely afford tools let alone good quench oil. I have gotten a few files, but for the most part my father let me take the tools I needed and my friend that wants to get into it with me bought some tools himself. My forge is being built out of spare firebricks from the oven at my dads bakery and a propane torch that we already had. I was planning on getting some vegtable oil or canola oil, but after all of the research I did and discovering how temperamental the quench on 1095 is I am unsure what to do now. I have seen a lot of people talk about parks # 50 but I have not seen a price on it and I am only guessing that my wallet, not to mention fiancee, would not be happy about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated here guys. Thanks.
 
Canola is too slow I guess. You can try quenching in water or brine. I'm sure you've read that trying those methods can result in broken blades. I've quenched a few pieces of 1095 in water and have been lucky.

You also need a soak at a specific temp to get the most out of your 1095.

Perhaps someone would be willing to trade you some 1084. I've found 1084 to be easy to work with, and easy to ht.

What dimensions is your stock? I have plenty of 1095 myself as I made exactly the same choice years ago.

What tools are you using to shape your knife?

Take a look at Kevin Cashens website if you haven't already. Lots of excellent information to accompany the stickies and the Counts post for new makers.
 
Go with warm canola oil ~130F. You can heat it up on the stove or use a piece of steel heated in the forge to warm the steel.
Be careful as canola oil can and will flare up. I still flinch a bit even when I expect it so just make sure everything is stable and that you have a fire extinguisher nearby (Don't use it on a small flare up but have it handy just in case). After you've maintained the blade above non-magnetic for 5-10min, quench into the warm oil edge first. Once it's submerged move the blade up and down or back and forth but never side to side, that can cause warpage.
1095 is not ideal for a brick propane forge and everyone will tell you to use 1080/1084 (which is good advice) but you can still get "decent" hardness from 1095 if you give enough soak time, have the oil nice and warm, and give it the proper aggitation/movement.

*I assume that you're working with thinner 1095 stock, around 1/8" thick. If you're using thicker material, say 1/4" then canola might not work and you might have to go to Brine. You'll want to do some additional research before you try that.

**I'm also very new at all this so if anyone with "maker" under their name contradicts what I've said listen to them.
 
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The stock I bought is 1/8th of an inch thick, 2 inches wide and 18 inches long. I have heard that canola or brine can cause warping or cracking, after reading everything I have now that is. I would have gotten 5160 cause it was cheaper but I could not find any stock that was thinner than 1/4th inch thick which is way to thick for me. I'm glad to hear that canola could get some ok results and I might still go with that but I will say what others say too. Thanks for the advice so far!
 
Getting new 1084 stock will be a fraction of the cost of fast oil, or a pyrometer to get a sense of the forge temp (more complicated than it sounds: there have been a few threads on this I the past several months.) bite the bullit and get some 1084.
 
While were on the topic of 1084, does anyone know when Aldo is going to have some in? I heard late January but its still out of stock.
 
Look, 1095 is finicky, but it isn't impossible or really even that difficult to HT. No need to be skiddish, just understand what you're looking at up front. Where I see a lot of people with a bad 1095 taste in their mouth is that they treated 1095 like 1084 and had issues. Now, just like anything you took head on in your life; riding a bike, asking out a hot chick, eating a jalepeno.... understand the possibility for failure, what is needed for success and nut up.

Warping is due to uneven grind, uneven heat, or uneven quench. As long as you have a nice even grind (you are grinding, yes? As long as you aren't forging we can skip a normalizing step...) and a means of heating the steel evenly you'll be fine.

Grind your steel down to about the thickness of a dime prior to HT. (Going too thin is where you will get cracks. Thinner sections cool faster than thick, so cracks form at the edge, etc...) If you're using a forge, use some sort of muffle. A pipe large enough to fit the blade but small enough to fit the forge is great. If your forge is too small for anything other than the blade, it can still be done, but you'll have to move the blade around a bit during heating. Like roasting a marshmallow only you don't wanna pull it out and blow on it.

Heat to non-magnetic and then a shade hotter. Don't start pulling it out and checking it for non-magnetic until it develops a nice dull red color. You want to see that color develop and see that it does so evenly. This is a good litmus test for even heating. Plus, if you keep touching the steel to your magnet you can overheat it. Some neodymium magnets, for example, start to lose their magnetism if heated to above 175°f. Over 500°f and they're toast. Keep your magnet close to the forge entrance but not too close (magnet overheating, remember?) and make your checks brief. You'll feel it lose magnetism. Resist the urge to go "Hey, cool!" And tap it to the magnet 15 bluemillion times.

Have your quenchant near the forge. You'll hear times quoted like 1-2seconds from temp to quench for 1095. This is where people burn down shops... Don't rush it. The steel does need to drop to sub-400°f in a little less than 2 seconds, but it doesn't start cooling like it's been pushed off a cliff the second it leaves the fire. You have time. Don't dilly-dally, but smooth and steady.

Quenchant. I use warm water. 150-175°f water works perfectly fine for sections of normal blade size. Grab the blade by a non-critical point (with tongs, yes?) and remove from the forge straight to the quench. No need to check the magnet again. As long as it was already past non-magnetic, and you heated it some more, it still is... Enter the quench straight it like you are cutting into the water. Move the blade slowly up and down in the water, not side to side. Staying still will create a vapor layer and the blade might not quench. Side to side can cause uneven cooling thus warping.

As soon as the blade is cool, get it into the oven for a tempering cycle or three. You can look up what temp for tempering depending on your desired final hardness. Pre-heat the oven prior to your HT so its ready to go when you are. The blade will be really brittle post quench so we want to get it tempered as quickly as we can. If you want to check your HT success at this point that's fine too. A file should skate across the steel if successful. There will be scale on the steel though which can make you think the HT was a failure, so make sure you are past the scale and into the steel.

Or, send it off for HT. ;)

No need to jump ship or be skiddish IMO. You'll be fine.


-Eric
 
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Andy, do a member lookup for Darrin Sanders (might have spelling wrong), send him an email (in all his posts). As I understand it, he offers a HT service for people in your position. 1095 is not a beginner steel. 1084 is a much better choice for a home hobbyist.

Also, you should go read the stickies, particularly about making forges. Not sure that bakery oven bricks are appropriate for forges because I would think that they are designed to absorb and hold rather than refract heat. That would be my guess anyway.
 
Thanks for all the info Eric! I will be filing my bevels with a filing jig I built. I saw Aaron Gough build one on youtube and had the materials to build it so that's what I have for now. I have a pair of long handled vice grips that I've rapped the fuck out of with duct tape and I have some thick leather gloves that I will be using when heat treating. I do know a guy from around my home town that makes knives and he said he would be more than happy to help me with heat treating. I would just do that, but I want the experience of doing it myself. If I don't get experience then whats the point of getting into knife making. Not to mention home is 4 hours away in good weather and I don't have my own car. I don't think my fiancee would be happy about me taking her car home to get some of my knives heat treated. So in the interest of keeping the lady happy and gaining my own experience I would like to do my own heat treat. I am glad to hear that I don't have to rush the quench as much as I thought I would. I've seen a lot of people say 1 second to half a second and I was wondering how that was even humanly possible. I will need to invest in a magnet though and I'm sure that not just any old magnet will do. Is there any suggestions on where to look for magnets? Again thanks for all the great advice.
 
I actually just got off the phone with my dad and the dimensions for the bricks are too small anyways. I will be investing in some good insulating firebricks. A couple bucks and I should have the forge up and running.
 
Tru Grit will heat treat it for I think $10 plus shipping.

That might be $22 total

And save you a lot of $$ and headaches
 
The 1second is referring to the time once the blade enters the quench. This is why you need fast quench oil. Using canola is not ideal because it cannot remove heat fast enough. Heating it helps lower the viscosity allowing better fluid convection but it's still not as fast as engineered oil. Water/brine is way faster and will get the most out of the steel, but it can cause cracks if there are stress risers in the blade.
Of course the blade will cool some as it moves from the forge to the quench oil but if you do it quickly and smoothly then it should not lose too much heat. It's always best to practice the movement before you actually fire up the forge. Think about the best way to position your forge and quenchant tank/pan so that you can pull from the forge and quench in a fluid motion. Do a few dry runs an adjust till you feel comfortable.
 
I've used a forge similar to the one you were describing. Mine was some hard fire bricks left over from building a fire place stacked on top of a 100,000 btu fish cooker. It worked OK considering.

If you're willing to spend a few more bucks I'd recommend a digital high temp thermometer and ceramic probe like the ones sold by Auber Instruments. With one of these you can do a pretty good heat treat cause you know the temp of your steel instead of trying to watch the color of the steel or guess whether or not you are far enough above nonmagnetic temp.
 
Like eric i use warm water as well. I take my blades down to about half of a dime thickness and have yet to have a problem with ht. Just get it from the heat to the quench really fast. Only made small blades so far. If i were to make a larger blade i would not want to Try it so thin.

And by no means am i saying take your grinds down to less than a dime. That's just how i have done it so far. May have been lucky to not get cracks. Next time i will try ti leave more jus To be safe..
 
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I have definitely been looking into ways to monitor my temperatures as precision and repeatably is important, but as I stated I am a poor college student. I will eventually invest in some but I don't have the funds right now. Eventually I will want to just get a heat treating oven but that is a ways down the road.
 
Sorry I missed the part of your thread about the bricks. Those are designed to hold heat and slowly release it, as in a pizza oven. Typically, traditional cooking was done by building a large fire within a two opening brick structure. Fire in one, food in other. And cooking could be done for hours after the actual fire had died down. Our ancestors were pretty good at harnessing fire actually. Otherwise we would be discussing what makes a good starting piece of obsideon I guess...

Anyway, there are also hard refractory bricks meant for burners, forges and kilns though so not ALL hard bricks suck. Those just suck a little less... They are basically a brick shaped chunk of poured castable refractory compound. When lined properly they can actually be ok and hella tough. I have one coated with (a lot of) ITC-100 that works ok given its crude construction and terrible burner placement. If shopping for bricks though look for the soft lot. They can be cut easily with a drywall saw...

You have expressed an interest in learning to do a HT. Good for you. Would buying 1084 make for an easier HT? Would sending it out preserve the knife almost assuredly? Yeah, but at some point you had to eat the first bite of opossum to know why we don't eat more of it... I say go for it. Then when you DO go buy 1084 for the next knife it will be rather anti-climatic and probably less prone to failure as a result.

More ideal than the bricks: A pipe of about 8-10" diameter, a couple of feet of kaowool and some satanite will make you a forge that will be fairly cheap and efficient. Search here for builds and you will find a plethora of good working venturi/blown/horizontal and vertical coal and propane designs varying from terribly simple to OMG dream forge. Its even covered in the stickies. Heck, shoot up a WIP thread and we'll walk you through it....

1095 isn't an ideal first HT and isn't considered a beginner steel. But really only because there are a bit more forgiving steels out there. As far as HT'ing as a whole goes, its about a 2 out of 10. If someone is saying 'I want to make a knife, what steel do I want to buy?' 1095 isn't my answer. But, it truly isn't that hard...

Honestly, I like reputation it has unreservedly gotten as a hard to HT steel amongst hobbyists. I love working 1095 and it means I can find it in spades and multiple sizes everywhere I look for almost nothing...

Do a WIP thread for the knife and the forge, there are tons of helpful guys here who will help pretty much 24/7. And if you wind up with a knife that is just too sweet (and I mean grind of a lifetime...) to take a chance on it dying, send it to me and I'll get it HT'd for you and even cover the return shipping. But, this is a one time offer, as I don't usually offer to do other people's heat treating... God bless Darrin for offering it, but I have enough stress as it is..... :)


-Eric
 
Eric, I agree that 1095 isn't that hard to heat treat, once you have done a few blades. The temp control and quench speed are the problems, and both cost money to manage. Brine with an overheated blade is a failure waiting to happen. I feel confident that I could get a decent blade out of 1095 now, after 100 or so blades without the pyrometer and fast oil, but I like the consistency that my current setup gives me. I honestly have a hard time telling the difference between 1450, 1475, or 1500f by color. Holding it for 10 minutes without your eyes adjusting is difficult. It is simply CHEAPER and easier to just get a euctoid steel, rather than trying to make 1095 work.
 
Thanks Eric! My steel should be here tomorrow and I can start cutting out and refining my profile. All the advice on the forge is making me think twice about the two brick idea. I will definitely look at the stickies and see a few designs. Thanks so much for the offer of heat treating. I honestly doubt, as I'm sure you do too, that my first few knives are going to be anywhere near "grind of a lifetime." Especially since I will just be hand filing with a filing jig. Even if I take more than my grand old time with it I just don't see it happening with my first few knives. If by some grand miracle it happens I will be in contact with you. Really what I appreciate most is that you have confidence that I can at least muddle my way through it. Most other people I've talked to about it just said "You done f'ed up" and moved on. As soon as I get the steel I will start a WIP thread for the knife and as far as the forge goes I will keep looking for stuff. Thanks for all the advice!
 
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That can do attitude is one of the very best things about this forum. Sometimes the encouragement is a needed motivator, and you'll find yourself trying other things just because you think you can. Keep on thinking you can and you just might end up with that grind of a lifetime.

Btw, doesn't bother me, but you might edit any curse words. Outside of W&C and Pirates Cove, the forum is considered family friendly. ;)
 
Thanks strigamort. I often forget that any kid that may be interested in knife making could stumble upon this page.
 
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