Newbie bought 1095. Need advice on quench. Probably beating a dead horse... sorry.

Willie71 said:
Eric, I agree that 1095 isn't that hard to heat treat, once you have done a few blades. The temp control and quench speed are the problems, and both cost money to manage. Brine with an overheated blade is a failure waiting to happen. I feel confident that I could get a decent blade out of 1095 now, after 100 or so blades without the pyrometer and fast oil, but I like the consistency that my current setup gives me. I honestly have a hard time telling the difference between 1450, 1475, or 1500f by color. Holding it for 10 minutes without your eyes adjusting is difficult. It is simply CHEAPER and easier to just get a euctoid steel, rather than trying to make 1095 work.
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Willie, at the risk of starting an argument, which is certainly not what I'm trying to do... Temp monitoring is as easy and cheap as a magnet, and warm water is a perfectly fine quenchant for a blade in 1095. He doesn't need skilled eyes for the various ranges of heat color of various steel types, only to check with a magnet and watch it get a little brighter essentially. There is no need to memorize every color through the heating cycle, only be able to tell a shade difference above non-magnetic. Is a PID controlled forge better and an oven best? Yes, but I have successfully HT'd 1095 with a brake drum forge, magnet and bucket of water. Certainly doesn't get any cheaper than that. I did more than a few bits of 1095 before I had accurate temp monitoring or control, and rarely had an issue.

I made a point to say if he had asked for a steel recommendation as a noob, I'd have said 1084. But he already has it, and wants to use it, so lets work with it. If he doesn't care if the blade fails while learning, then so be it. Let's let him learn and help him along instead of just telling him it won't work. I see too many overly nannyish comments saying 'you'll fail' or 'that's not going to work' for some reason. It's like 1095 has cooties or something.

Is overheating and too rapid a quench a recipe for failure Yes... but I will tell you what I see more often. A blade that didn't harden because the maker yanked the steel 2 seconds after non-magnetic and plopped it into too warm quench oil. Why? Because they were scared poopless after all the warnings and advice they will fail. And water and brine are two separate things. For most blade sized hunks water is just fine. No need to speed it up any more...

Again, not trying to start an argument, but I do think the prevailing advice stream heading toward newer guys regarding 1095 is unnecessarily overly cautioning. Advise the user of the pitfalls, and prepare them for possible failure, but don't withhold giving them advice for those reasons. For some reaon 1095 steel and using an angle grinder of any type are hot-button issues... The angle grinder, ok... safety. But the 1095... Where is the concern and need to continue telling someone that they may have issues after the first advisement and acknowledgment. It's not YOUR blade after all... It's like telling your kid not to learn to ride a bike because they very wellnmay fall off and get a boo-boo.

And think how high his self-esteem with his newfound hobby will be if his HT all works out as planned. Man, you can't eve put a $ on that...

-Eric
 
Hi guys, I'm in the same boat as the original poster except that I have a nice forge that I built. I do have a question about the muffle you mentioned Eric? Should the muffle go all the way from the front to the back of the forge? I have a small opening in the back of my 14" long forge. I made the forge from a 8" dia Pc of pipe w/2" of Kaowool and satanite over that, so that my opening is 4" in dia. I was going to get a 2" Pc of either SS or black iron pipe for my muffle but did not know how long it should be? The depth of my forge is 12" I look forward to trying out some 1095 this spring! Thanks for all your info too Eric! Easy reading and really easy to understand! Don
 
No, if everything works out for my by some crazy miracle it will be priceless! BUT It wont be grade-less. My outdoor living skills prof said he would give me tons of extra credit if I could get a decent blade before the end of the semester because knife making is a skill that not even he has. I was already interested in knife making but when I was told I needed a fixed blade for class I knew it was time to dive in, especially with the incentive of a good grade. I might even butter the prof up with a free knife :p
 
crank78 said:
Like eric i use warm water as well. I take my blades down to about half of a dime thickness and have yet to have a problem with ht. Just get it from the heat to the quench really fast. Only made small blades so far. If i were to make a larger blade i would not want to Try it so thin.

And by no means am i saying take your grinds down to less than a dime. That's just how i have done it so far. May have been lucky to not get cracks. Next time i will try ti leave more jus To be safe..
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scratch that. I spoke to soon. I just had two blades warped bad at the tip when they came out. I also broke both of them. they didn't pass the bend test after temper.
 
I just went through and read a bunch of the stickies about building forges and ran across a comment that said 1095 requires a soak time. I'm guessing that means that it needs to sit at that temperature for a certain amount of time so my question is now how long should it soak for or should I even worry about soaking it for my first couple blades? Thanks again for all the info!
 
I can tell you one thing not to do. do not temper it at 370f. its way to brittle. I knew that but had to test it for myself. wasted several hours of work and they were my best two blades so far.
 
I am trying to offer advice, not put down your efforts. Unless you can maintain the temp for 5 minutes MINIMUM, you will be better off with a steel that does not require a soak. 1095 is hypereuctoid. Do you want your carbon diffusing into the grain boundaries if your "visual" temp is out by 25deg F rather than benefiting the edge holding ability? Do you want enlarged grains if you are out by 50f? How about being 25F too low and having an uneven hardened blade with soft spots? Yes you can harden it with minimal equipment, but a properly heat treated 1075/1080/1084 blade will significantly outperform your 1095 blade unless you luck out. I would say O1 is more forgiving as it is deeper hardening, and tolerates a wider variety of quench mediums. Its not a matter if you CAN do it, but SHOULD you do it. I work with 1095, and with reasonable heat control I have to re heat treat blades due to uneven hardening. Its not easy. Its not like high tech stainless, but its for experienced users with good heat control.
 
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I started another thread asking if it would be more worth my time and money to build myself a heat treating oven. After a few responses it seems like I should be able to build a heat treating oven pretty easily and relatively cheaply. Just gotta sell a paintball gun, video camera, and guitar once its back from getting warranty work done on it and I should have some money to work with. Thanks for all the advice. I understand you are not putting down my efforts, but at the same time it is just disheartening when I screwed up and that is what I have to work with. If I build a forge and heat treat a couple blades that turn out to be crap, oh well. Its part of learning. If I build myself a heat treating oven and I heat treat a couple blades that are crap, Oh Well. Its life and I understand I wont succeed every time, but I am here. The steel is on its last leg from Sheboygan WI to my door step in Marqutte so I will see the steel first hand sometime tomorrow afternoon. I will start a WIP thread as soon as I can start cutting out and refining a profile on my first blade. I might even write fail/succeed on either side, drop it on the bench and see what side comes up just for you guys in this thread ;) Thanks again for the advice guys. Helps a lot!
 
dont get discouraged or down on your self i made a similar mistake when i bought my first piece of steel but i brought 416 stainless do to bad info from another site before i found this one. i read earlier that you would consider 5160 if you could find it smaller than .250. i actually have it in .187x2 if you ever want to trade the piece you have
 
Willie, that's why I said 'not trying to start an argument.' I was hoping you would read that as an addendum and not a complete contradiction. Here's the rub. Yes 1095 needs soak time. But the thin blade edges will usually have plenty of soak if using a muffle and a forge that isn't screaming hot just working off a magnet for temp. (Which seemed to be where the original post was headed.) Is it ideal? No. But he was just asking about getting the steel hard. 1095 in a section about a dime thick will soak fast. Any hotter and yes you will start growing grain, but won't immediately have huge grain structure. We aren't talking about a held heat on a clay coat blade where minute temp differences are the end goal.

For the muffle pipe question. Large enough to fit the blade into, long enough to shield its length, and small enough so that it diverts the flame but doesn't completely obstruct it.

And to the OP... If you are starting to think about spending more money and building an oven, etc... Then by all means, grab a chunk or two of 1084 and start with that. The 1095 will wait for you to work up to it. My advice, again just to be clear, was that it can be done with minimal equipment, but Willie is right that to get THE BEST RESULTS out of it, it takes a good eye, good temp control, and a bit of experience knowing your quench rates for cross-sectional size, etc. Developing that with 1084 will help with the 1095.

-Eric

I
 
Eric, I'm not meaning to argue with you. I agree with everything you said. I have been reading the OPs posts regarding equipment builds/purchases, and agree ordering some 1084 is the what needs to happen here. My personal experience is +/- 25f is a REALLY big deal to 1095.
 
Andy,

There is some good info from several members in this thread. I am new to knifemaking as well with only a few blades behind me. In my limited experience, get the 1084 as it will only cost a few bucks and you will make a knife with a good blade using simple tools. You will not need to sell off your prized possessions to do so. Heat treating might be my favorite part of the building process. It is somewhat climactic and realizes all of the theory you have come to learn. With some safety practice and knowledge I would encourage you to HT your own work. I have used 1095 once knowing that I stood a good chance of breaking a blade I had spent MANY hours preparing for HT. It was all part of the fun and it worked out just fine. I likely didn't get the best out of the steel but it is a serviceable blade that is sharp and holds an edge better than the my store bought knives. Best of luck and post your progress and results.
 
Andy, we all make mistakes as I too made the mistake of ordering 1095. I was already ordering some other stuff from a knife supplier and went ahead and bought it to save on shipping. That bar is still sitting in the back of my cabinet. I'll use it eventually. I am really happy with how the 1080 and 15n20 (thanks for the tip Warren) I have been working with recently is turning out though.

Chris
 
Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm sitting here studying for my ecology exam and desperately waiting for the steel to arrive. I got a response to a good link for a build of a heat treating oven on my other thread. I just gotta remember that the build is for a 220V and I will have to buy components for a 120V and I will be well on my way. I will probably cut a blade or two out on the 1090 to get the filing practice and wait till I get the oven built to do my heat treating. If I make 2 ugly blades I should still be able to save the rest and get 2 more when I have more experience. Again thanks for every shred of advice that came from this thread. It has helped me tremendously and I hope that maybe it helped some other people that have seen it too. Its really taken me from the step of just ok we will try this and see how it goes, to I WANT to do this and I am going to do what it takes and learn as much as I can. Thanks so much guys. I'll probably be back on later to see if there are more posts, as for now I need to read about frozen frogs.
 
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