Newbie - Sharpening questions

No, my advice for a new kid is to stay away for jigs and rods and the many triangle sharpeners on the market,,,,,they are just the wrong way to learn...

They are easy, they are fast,,,but they don't advance the persons understanding of what sharp is.....

However there are 2 times when even I switch and use my tri-stones,,,,,

1-when in the middle of something, like cutting up a deer, a tryangle sharpener will help be do a fast fix on a blade that might have a flopped over edge.

2-an oil stone is worthless when dealing with a serrated blade, you got to have a triangle sharpener handy for such knives.

BUT the Huge draw-back of all triangle stones is that they can not raise a burr,,,,and without raising a burr you are just not getting the knife as sharp or as even as you could,,,,

The design flaw of the triangle sharpener is that as you draw down on the blade against the stone the rods are just following the edge of the blade. Yes, the rods just follow every up and down in the blade, every dip, every ding,,,every flaw in the blade is only made worse.

When you also use a tri-rod sharpener you have a tendency to just "count" strokes....you also have a tendency to flip from one side to the other, back and forth....But this is the wrong way to go!...

Here is the deal with sharpening any blade....

When you sharpen a knife, you have to just sharpen one side fully first. You MUST have a burr all along the first edge before you flip the blade over and start sharpening the other side.

If you do not raise a burr?....Then you are not done!,,,

Any sharpener that can not raise a burr along the edge of the knife you are trying to sharpen is never getting your knife as sharp as it could be...The number of strokes per side is besides the point, counting them is pointless. In fact counting strokes on a sharpener leads to thinking the knife is sharp based only on a number you counted to ......what difference could that possibly make?
 
why do i think many opponents of the sharpmaker have never used one. :rolleyes:

its not the same as a ceramic rod v sharpener. there are flats and there are corners - there is no round rod. So you can remove any dings or chips without issue.

I had a spyderco native in s30v that had chips all along its edge.

ask the forum member who bought it from me if it was scary sharp and the edge was even.

actually - ask anyone who has picked up a knife from me in a trade or a buy and see what condition the edges were and how sharp it was...

edit - if you've used the sharpmaker you know that you can easily raise a burr before switching sides...
 
Counting strokes is only a way of letting you know you've done a certain amount of work on the edge. You still have to learn to judge when that edge is sharp. This may mean a few more strokes. It may mean moving on the the next grit. I rarely consider doing the standard routine of 160 strokes. It's a guide, until you get a feel for what the strokes are accomplishing.

try understanding
there are those of us who count
everything we do​

(Sorry, haiku in-joke! :) )​
 
counting strokes is useless when sharpening a knife,,,,
\

all counting teaches you is that you know what comes after 49....(50)

The number of strokes is un-important, the only important matter is the state of the edge....that can be learned by feel..you drag you fingers and feel the back of the edge you are working on and feel the raised burr.....

If you feel the burr, (sometimes called a wire), then this shows you that you have sharpened that side fully to the point where steel is so thin it has flopped over the edge to make the burr...

Time to flip!.....What number stroke were you on?...Who Cares!.....the number is unimportant, the burr tells you when to flip, not any number...a number is a poor guide,,,,a number will lie to you,,,a number will tell you that you are doing good, or not good based only on how high a number you just decide to count to,,,Whats the difference?

.....count to a million, is that better than counting to 10?....Who Knows?,,,,....in fact, thinking you have done more work on one side of a blade than the other based on the "number" is not ever going to help you decide if the knife is sharp or not,,,,same as with a stone!

I use an oil stone, but I don't count the number of strokes!...You have to feel for the burr, if you go too many strokes you will grind off the burr and need to start all over again!...that's why people that count always get confused...

If I raise a burr on one side with a few strokes and yet keep going counting to 100 I have most likely raised and removed many different burrs...and so if I stop along the way I will most likly think :"Its still dull after all this time?"...and keep stroking another 100 counts,,,,check the blade,,,"Still dull again?!'...and do another 100....

However if I don't count, but just check the edge after every stroke I will learn the correct moment when I have the burr raised and it is time to flip,,,any extra strokes on that side and I might destroy the burr and be back to square One, thinking to myself in error, "This darn steel cant take an edge!"....
 
I would agree with the comment about the necessity of raising a burr.

No burr....no sharp.


However I believe that the counting of stokes was put in the instructions to try and explain to the novice the importance of getting the edge in the center of the blade. Too much sharpening just on one side will raise a burr but the edge will be off center.

Someone can explain this better than me, but anyone that has actually sharpened a blade so that they can flop the burr from side to side will understand exactly what I am trying to convey.
 
Oh Yes,,,,oh I know it "says" to count in the directions of most all the triangle sharpeners,,,,

But I'm saying thats wrong thing to do,,,
Its a wrong idea to give new guys...
It's a wrong thing to put into them directions,,,
It leads to errors in the understanding of whats going on...

Counting leads only to more counting, and then disappointment,,,,
It leads to the idea that a knife pulled across a stone 1000 times is going to be sharper than a knife pulled across 20....and thats when new guys get confused.
Because their end result of spending all after noon sharping does not match what they sure thought should be true,,(That the higher count the sharper the blade),,

But they run into a major problem, for their 1000 stroked edge is not any sharper than the first 20 they did at the start....______?????????????.

Thats why young men start to think they are the "Kings of dull"..That they lack the skills of Grandpa.

And thats why they will then turn to all kinds of jigs and triangles and knife clamps...just because they dint understand why counting all the way up to 10,000 stone strokes per-side didn't work ???????

Thats why the best advice to give a guy who says he does not know how to sharpen a knife is to say, 'Stop counting and just allow the burr to tell you when it is time to flip the blade"
 
i'll have to respectfully disagree. counting the strokes helped me quite a bit in the beginning. it kept my edges even, and made it easier to find a "rhythm" or "sweet spot" when NOT counting.

i started out using my Sharpmaker while counting the strokes. the instructions also mention that this is not the only method, but more of a guideline to get you started. after a few sessions on my Sharpmaker, i found that i could bring a knife to sharp without counting, and now i rely on the burr to dictate when i flip.

was the counting somehow counterintuitive to this discovery? not at all. was i unable to raise a burr because i was counting? of course not. if that were the case, no beginnner would be getting their blades sharp, and people would not laud the Sharpmaker (or other triangle systems) for what it is: a valuable tool.

to the OP, i still say you follow the instructions/video provided with your 204 for the first few tries. you will not be led astray. once your confidence is built, and you acquire a better understanding of sharpening (and YOU WILL), feel free to experiment with your own technique. you'll eventually abandon the counting method, but the proper usage of the 204 will stick with you and enable you to get most knives hopelessly sharp, fast.

abe m.
 
that link is in fact the first sharpening resource i came across online, and also what attracted me to BFC. it is invaluable, and gives a lot of insight into what makes a knife sharp and how to achieve it.

abe m.
 
wow, when i logged on tonight i expected maybe 1 or 2 more posts.... heh... lots of good info though....thanks guys
 
MelancholyMutt said:
However, as KnifeKnuts, If you take a new EDC out of the box, you hafta inspect the edge, and you feel the need to strop it, or run it over the UltraFine stone once or twice, you can't be satisfied with a sharpmaker edge...
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Can't be satisfied with a Sharpmaker edge? Do you know what kind of edge the ultra fine Sharpmaker rods put on an edge??

How about the EdgePro system? Are you going to knock that? It lets you set any angle and it will hold a more accurate angle than ANY free hand sharpener can hold. I do my reprofiling with the Edge Pro so I don't remove any more metal than I have to. Then I put the final edge on with the Sharpmaker, usually 40 degrees for durability (still hair popping sharp), so I can easily touch up the knife at any time.

As far as reprofiling SAK's to slice gnat junk I'll leave that task to you. :) I want an edge that will handle real world applications, not chip and roll over if it touches paper.
 
The sharpmaker can get a wicked finished edge.
For reprofiling, a diamond stone or sanpaper(if you want convex) are the fast way to go, Then finish up on the sharpmaker 204.

Anyone who uses knives regularly MUST learn to sharpen with a small flat stone (we can't carry the 204 everywhere).

I would not recommend the Lansky or similar system, I ruined mine trying to make it work correctly on small blades.

I learned to sharpen freehand, and I can still do so on the 204 (in bench stone mode) at any angle I please.

For all the systems out there, the edge pro is probably best, but out of $ reach for most, while the Sharpmaker 204 is in second place at under 50 bucks.

ANYONE can get knives very sharp on the 204, and I think most every 'expert' at BF can tell you that it's an important part of their sharpening equipment, even if they don't use it for everything.

If you want to be a manly man, by all means use a flat stone all the time. But the 204 can become a flat stone anyway, and still do much much more.
 
WadeF said:
Can't be satisfied with a Sharpmaker edge? Do you know what kind of edge the ultra fine Sharpmaker rods put on an edge??
...
Click to expand...

The fine stones do a very good job already, where did you find the ultras?
I've been looking for them. Are they still being produced?

WadeF said:
...

As far as reprofiling SAK's to slice gnat junk I'll leave that task to you. :) I want an edge that will handle real world applications, not chip and roll over if it touches paper.
Click to expand...

SAKS can be done quite thin if they are convexed and finished up at 20 degrees (40) or so. They can stand up to limited amounts of cardboard boxes this way, and will glide through thin paper nicely.
 
WadeF said:
Can't be satisfied with a Sharpmaker edge? Do you know what kind of edge the ultra fine Sharpmaker rods put on an edge??

As far as reprofiling SAK's to slice gnat junk I'll leave that task to you. :) I want an edge that will handle real world applications, not chip and roll over if it touches paper.
Click to expand...

I use spyderco ultra-fine benchstones to finish up with... very very fine edge, but, I prefer mine at a more acute angle than the sharpmaker can offer...

as for the edgepro, I never used one so I can't say...
 
Many great comments. I have to add mine:
The Sharpmaker 204 is great for any level but think about the dynamics of what you are doing when you are just learning to sharpen. As you learn to use this user friendly system you can then apply some of what you have learned to moving to different stones. I seldom use my stones because the 204 just does such a great job on most basic applications. I am sure there are some flatter grinds that the 204 preset angles may not be the most appropriate for. That is when it is fun to experiment.

As for as counting strokes I think it is a waste of time since you will be sharpening many different types of steels in varying degrees of sharpness to start with.

Another Sales pitch for the 204 is to buy the diamond rods. They are awesome for reprofiling and for tough jobs but be very careful. Do not press too hard or you will ruin the rods.

Many different ways to achieve sharpness but the 204 is the best overall in my book.
 
jjmc2001 said:
Many great comments. I have to add mine:
The Sharpmaker 204 is great for any level but think about the dynamics of what you are doing when you are just learning to sharpen. As you learn to use this user friendly system you can then apply some of what you have learned to moving to different stones. I seldom use my stones because the 204 just does such a great job on most basic applications. I am sure there are some flatter grinds that the 204 preset angles may not be the most appropriate for. That is when it is fun to experiment.
Click to expand...

Well, the 204 lets you use the rods as a flat stone as well. I have since stopped using all but the coarsest diamond stones I have, since the 204 is so convienient. I generally go thinner to profile and then use 30 or 40 degrees to apply the very edge.

jjmc2001 said:
As for as counting strokes I think it is a waste of time since you will be sharpening many different types of steels in varying degrees of sharpness to start with. ...
Click to expand...

Counting strokes is a waste of time. You sharpen until it is sharp. The 204 can easily raise a burr, so there's no need. For an absolute newbie, it is something to try and if it doesn't work, hopefully they come to BF for an answer.

jjmc2001 said:
Another Sales pitch for the 204 is to buy the diamond rods. They are awesome for reprofiling and for tough jobs but be very careful. Do not press too hard or you will ruin the rods.
Click to expand...

Or you can go the cheap route and tightly wrap coarse aluminum oxide paper around the rods... or, as others have done, lean/tie a diamond stone to the rods...just be careful not to damage the rods or get gummy tape on them. (some have cut a wedge of wood to mount a coarse stone at the same angles as the the sharpmaker in order to do their reprofiling).

I am very impressed with the 204, and I too think that it is the absoute best for the money!
 
MelancholyMutt said:
I use spyderco ultra-fine benchstones to finish up with... very very fine edge, but, I prefer mine at a more acute angle than the sharpmaker can offer...
So why can't you just use the Sharpmaker in bench stone mode and use your free hand skills to put on any angle you desire? The Sharpmaker is not limited to only 30 and 40 degrees if you can sharpen free hand, it also acts like a bench stone.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
WadeF said:
MelancholyMutt said:
I use spyderco ultra-fine benchstones to finish up with... very very fine edge, but, I prefer mine at a more acute angle than the sharpmaker can offer...
So why can't you just use the Sharpmaker in bench stone mode and use your free hand skills to put on any angle you desire? The Sharpmaker is not limited to only 30 and 40 degrees if you can sharpen free hand, it also acts like a bench stone.
Click to expand...

That's like buying the Swisschamp SAK and using just the can opener when I can just carry around a P-38
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klattman said:
The sharpmaker can get a wicked finished edge.
For reprofiling, a diamond stone or sanpaper(if you want convex) are the fast way to go, Then finish up on the sharpmaker 204.
Click to expand...

I maybe wrong here, but I thought I heard the aluminum oxide water stones that come with the EdgePro can cut through metal faster than diamond hones can, and faster than just about any other abrasive. From my experience I can reprofile much faster using the EdgePro than a diamond hone or sand paper. This maybe due to the way the EdgePro holds the knife in place and lets me hold a consistent angle and I can just grind away with ease.

The EdgePro extra-course and course stones cut plenty fast for me.

Edited for dumbness on my part: I thought you were saying the sandpaper or diamond stone was a faster way to reprofile than the EdgePro, but now I see you were just suggesting that as a way to reprofile other than using the Sharpmaker. So never mind my above statements, although they may open up another debate here. :)
 
WadeF said:
I maybe wrong here, but I thought I heard the aluminum oxide water stones that come with the EdgePro can cut through metal faster than diamond hones can, and faster than just about any other abrasive. From my experience I can reprofile much faster using the EdgePro than a diamond hone or sand paper. This maybe due to the way the EdgePro holds the knife in place and lets me hold a consistent angle and I can just grind away with ease.

The EdgePro extra-course and course stones cut plenty fast for me.

Edited for dumbness on my part: I thought you were saying the sandpaper or diamond stone was a faster way to reprofile than the EdgePro, but now I see you were just suggesting that as a way to reprofile other than using the Sharpmaker. So never mind my above statements, although they may open up another debate here. :)
Click to expand...


You're probably right about the edge-pro, but sandpaper is way cheaper, which is why I suggested it. ;)
 
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