NIB? What does that mean?

[Folderguy]

You're back to the same thing. What is the definition of unused?

This is pretty good:

Definitions of unused on the Web:

• fresh: not yet used or soiled; "a fresh shirt"; "a fresh sheet of paper"; "an unused envelope"
• not yet put into use; "we bought an unused car for a change"
• idle: not in active use; "the machinery sat idle during the strike"; "idle hands"
• infrequently exposed to; "feet unused to shoes"

 

[FLymon]

IMHO the real difference between NIB and LNIB is ownership. If I am a knife dealer who buys knives explicitly for the purpose of resale, and the knives I buy (to the best of my knowledge) have never been purchased by an end user then they are NIB. Once john Q. Public buys a knife it is no longer, and never will be new again. Weather it ever gets used is another issue.

I accept that other end users will sell a knife they own as NIB, and that really does not bother me as long it really is LNIB.

 

[RevDevil]

Thank you, Thomas. Very informative post. :thumbup:

I'm glad to hear that the basic QC factory test exceeds a bold flick or two, and so on.

Every Kershaw or Kai or Zero Tolerance knife I've purchased came in positively flawless, smoothly working condition, which is what I would expect.

What kinds of factory tests does Kershaw perform on each knife prior to shipment for sale?

Thanks,

Folderguy

How is your free Offset working out for you...

I would imagine the answer to your last question is essentially proprietary information, just like the recipe for the heat treat process, and other tests. It does not benefit KAI but may in fact place them at a disadvantage making that kind of information public.

 

[Folderguy]

How is your free Offset working out for you... lmao

I would imagine the answer to your last question is essentially propriatary information, just like the recipe for the heat treat process, and other tests. It does not benefit KAI but may in fact place them at a disadvantage making that kind of information public.

The free Offset is a great knife. As I have been traveling and not had the time to do an "indepth review" of the knife with photos, I've not written about it on the forums yet. One thing I can tell you is that the blade shape is awesome, and the knife came shaving sharp, as I expected it would. Although I'm not a big fan of the paint splash finish on the scales, I can overlook that.

Later I'll try to go though some points about the knife a bit more systematically and compare it to, for instance, my ZT 0300. There are definite similarities and plenty of differences. One thing I won't be doing is any serious prying with the blade. I respect the fact that Kershaw advises against it.

In any case, I'd really like to have an idea what a good manufacturer does to test their knives, and hope Thomas is able to fill us in.

 

[Reznik572]

IMHO the real difference between NIB and LNIB is ownership. If I am a knife dealer who buys knives explicitly for the purpose of resale, and the knives I buy (to the best of my knowledge) have never been purchased by an end user then they are NIB. Once john Q. Public buys a knife it is no longer, and never will be new again. Weather it ever gets used is another issue.

I accept that other end users will sell a knife they own as NIB, and that really does not bother me as long it really is LNIB.

Well said. This is how I think everyone should look at it. I have a knife I have never used, I've taken it out of its box and opended it to see if the knife locked up tight. Now I don't think it would be fair for me to go sell it as NIB as I personally know i've handled it and it literally is not new, its LNIB.

 

[Bryan J]

IMHO the real difference between NIB and LNIB is ownership. If I am a knife dealer who buys knives explicitly for the purpose of resale, and the knives I buy (to the best of my knowledge) have never been purchased by an end user then they are NIB. Once john Q. Public buys a knife it is no longer, and never will be new again. Weather it ever gets used is beside the point.

I accept that other end users will sell a knife they own as NIB, and that really does not bother me as long it really is LNIB.

This is the most rational answer, practically speaking. The theoretical difference between NIB and LNIB is one thing, but one simply must assume that any knife listed as "NIB" on the exchange forum or by an individual on ebay is actually LNIB and value it accordingly. I always assume the person I'm trading with handled the knife and possibly cut some paper. This seems to me to be prudent, common sense. No big deal.

 

[DallasSTB]

...someone's booger fingers ....


....Its a small distinction, but where boogers are involved, the devil is in the details...

The only reason I read this whole thread was to see what else Powernoodle would write about "booger fingers". I about spit up my coffee. Let me take a wild guess that you have about half a dozen Purell dispensers scattered around your house, huh? AND I'm going to steal the term "dispositive" if you don't mind as well.

Thomas is dead on with the NIB thing. If a manufacturer doesn't routinely and uniformly check every unit that goes out the door, they are not going to be operating in the top of this field. Period. For example, every Sebenza that rolls out of CRK's has been hard flicked, handled and tweaked a few times before it ever leaves the shop. Are none of them NIB?

 

[BP Green]

IMHO the real difference between NIB and LNIB is ownership. If I am a knife dealer who buys knives explicitly for the purpose of resale, and the knives I buy (to the best of my knowledge) have never been purchased by an end user then they are NIB. Once john Q. Public buys a knife it is no longer, and never will be new again. Weather it ever gets used is another issue.

I accept that other end users will sell a knife they own as NIB, and that really does not bother me as long it really is LNIB.

My definition is not based on ownership but on whether or not the knife has been handled. I'll give an example.

I own a .22lr target rifle that was sold to me by a prior owner as NIB. The gun was in its original sealed packaging. The accesories that came with it were in their original, sealed unopened packaging. The guy who sold it to me was not the original owner but he described the gun correctly as NIB.

When I got the gun, I opened the packaging. I checked to make sure that the sight and all the sight inserts were there and that they fit. I put a snap cap in the chamber and checked the trigger pull. Then put the gun in my safe where it has been for the past two years or so unfired or otherwise handled.

By the definition of some on this thread, I could relist that gun as NIB but I'll tell you that if I did that I would be hung by most gun collectors.

It's a moot point anyway as my wife threw the box away with most of the inserts and packaging but that's another story.

My point being that the handling of the item is the distinction. It's a small one but it is there. . . .

I just read the post above mine so I'll edit to say "handled by anyone outside or after being packaged at the factory.

 

[Supra1988t]

This is why I state things as LNIB when selling.

 

[elkins45]

My definition is not based on ownership but on whether or not the knife has been handled. I'll give an example.

I own a .22lr target rifle that was sold to me by a prior owner as NIB. The gun was in its original sealed packaging. The accesories that came with it were in their original, sealed unopened packaging. The guy who sold it to me was not the original owner but he described the gun correctly as NIB.

When I got the gun, I opened the packaging. I checked to make sure that the sight and all the sight inserts were there and that they fit. I put a snap cap in the chamber and checked the trigger pull. Then put the gun in my safe where it has been for the past two years or so unfired or otherwise handled.

By the definition of some on this thread, I could relist that gun as NIB but I'll tell you that if I did that I would be hung by most gun collectors.

It's a moot point anyway as my wife threw the box away with most of the inserts and packaging but that's another story.

My point being that the handling of the item is the distinction. It's a small one but it is there. . . .

I just read the post above mine so I'll edit to say "handled by anyone outside or after being packaged at the factory.

Your gun would be correctly described as "unfired, like new in box" Is "uncut" the knife equivalent of unfired?

This thread has gotten me to thinking that I should start listing my knives as LNIB instead of NIB just in the interest of full disclosure, even though I always understood NIB to include light handling for inspection and photographing. As someone else said, you should always rate your goods conservatively. That way the most likely surprise on the receiving end will be a pleasant one.

 

[THG]

I think that ONLY applying NIB to unopened boxes can be dangerous. Then someone can get a knife with a slight defect, say it's "NIB, never opened, never inspected," get rid of it, and then when the buyer complains, the seller can just say, "Well, I told you that it was NIB: I never looked at it, so you get what you get."

 

[effer]

IMHO the real difference between NIB and LNIB is ownership. If I am a knife dealer who buys knives explicitly for the purpose of resale, and the knives I buy (to the best of my knowledge) have never been purchased by an end user then they are NIB. Once john Q. Public buys a knife it is no longer, and never will be new again. Weather it ever gets used is another issue.

This is very questionalble.

Let's say I buy a new knife from online dealer. At what point is becomes "old"? As soon as I pay for it, or when I take the box out of the shipping packaging?
Let's say I bought a knife in a blister pack (completely sealed) from WalMart. I brought it home. I own it. Explain to me in which way it is not new.

Here is another one. Guy goes to a local brick and mortar store to buy a new High-end knife. Dealer has a knife on display, but because Guy wants to make sure that the knife he pays for (a lot of money) is perfect in every way, he wants to inspect the one he's going to pay for. Knife comes is a regular box (like most high-end knife do, or maybe even without box). So dealer opens a box, show him the knife. Guy is such a weird perfectionist, he finds that lockup is a bit further than he likes. Gives the knife back, dealer puts it back in the box and back on the shelf. They give him another one. Guy finds the blade centering is a bit off (1 micron to the right). He doesn't buy that one either. Next one Guy doesn't like because grind looks a bit uneven. Etc... Finally he buys 1 knife after handling 5 knives with his booger hands. So the one he paid for is not new anymore, but the other ones that he rejected are still new?
Expand this a bit more. Let's say this Brick&Mortar dealer also sells online. Well, you have a very good chance of buying a NIB knife handled by bugger hands of Guy The Perfectionist.

 

[FLymon]

My definition is not based on ownership but on whether or not the knife has been handled. I'll give an example.

I own a .22lr target rifle that was sold to me by a prior owner as NIB. The gun was in its original sealed packaging. The accesories that came with it were in their original, sealed unopened packaging. The guy who sold it to me was not the original owner but he described the gun correctly as NIB.

When I got the gun, I opened the packaging. I checked to make sure that the sight and all the sight inserts were there and that they fit. I put a snap cap in the chamber and checked the trigger pull. Then put the gun in my safe where it has been for the past two years or so unfired or otherwise handled.

By the definition of some on this thread, I could relist that gun as NIB but I'll tell you that if I did that I would be hung by most gun collectors.

It's a moot point anyway as my wife threw the box away with most of the inserts and packaging but that's another story.

My point being that the handling of the item is the distinction. It's a small one but it is there. . . .

I just read the post above mine so I'll edit to say "handled by anyone outside or after being packaged at the factory.

To my reasoning you are talking about the condition of the item, not weather it is new or not.
There is a car dealer here in the metro Atlanta area who has a new, untitled car from the 70's in their showroom. You can tell it is about 40 years old, but it was never sold, so it is new. If you buy a new 2011 car and have it titled in your name it is not new anymore even though the condition is far superior to the new car in the showroom.

I think that ONLY applying NIB to unopened boxes can be dangerous. Then someone can get a knife with a slight defect, say it's "NIB, never opened, never inspected," get rid of it, and then when the buyer complains, the seller can just say, "Well, I told you that it was NIB: I never looked at it, so you get what you get."

If you have a sealed package, you could say "LNIB, never opened". When I see LNIB, I expect that the item has been inspected and not only has it never been used, it is free from obvious, or known defect. I don't expect that when buying NIB from a dealer. I mean I expect to get a new, free from defect product, but I understand that most dealers never look in the box so sometimes you get a dud and have to send it back.

 

[BP Green]

To my reasoning you are talking about the condition of the item, not weather it is new or not.
There is a car dealer here in the metro Atlanta area who has a new, untitled car from the 70's in their showroom. You can tell it is about 40 years old, but it was never sold, so it is new. If you buy a new 2011 car and have it titled in your name it is not new anymore even though the condition is far superior to the new car in the showroom.



If you have a sealed package, you could say "LNIB, never opened". When I see LNIB, I expect that the item has been inspected and not only has it never been used, it is free from obvious, or known defect. I don't expect that when buying NIB from a dealer. I mean I expect to get a new, free from defect product, but I understand that most dealers never look in the box so sometimes you get a dud and have to send it back.

In your example I would still consider the car new. Year of manufacture has nothing to do with it. The gun I used in my example was over twenty years old when I bought it. It waz still generally accepted as NIB.

 

[MTguy]

When I see NIB for things other than knives usually that means that its completely sealed in the original box how it came from the factory.

CIB is complete in box for things that have had the seals broken.

These definitions would work for knives in say a clam package but in a box that has no seals im not sure.

 

[link2derek]

What if the following happened:

I ordered a knife new from a dealer or manufacturer, never opened the box or packaging (i.e. never inspected it), and then resold it to you as NIB. And when you received it and unpackaged it, you discovered that there was a cosmetic or mechanical flaw with the knife. Would you be upset and feel you didn't get what you paid for?

Of course you would (I would too). And I, as the original buyer, had the best opportunity to inspect the knife first and send it back if there was such a flaw. And that's what should happen.

When I sell/trade knives, I try to rate them on a percentage basis -- the only way I can do that is I have had the knife out of the packaging and in my hands briefly. So, if I bought it new from dealer/manufacturer, and I opened it but never carried/used/sharpened it, then I have no problem rating it at 100% NIB. If there is even the slightest flaw though (mark on the clip, scuff on the handle, etc.), then I'll rate it lower (e.g. 98% LNIB).

 

[THG]

I don't expect that when buying NIB from a dealer. I mean I expect to get a new, free from defect product, but I understand that most dealers never look in the box so sometimes you get a dud and have to send it back.

What if it's not a dealer? We're talking about the exchange here, right? So what if you buy from me a knife that I say is NIB and I've never opened/inspected/etc. it? Say it happens to have a >60% liner lock travel which you don't like, or an off-centered blade. Now that you've purchased the NIB knife and decided that it has a defect to your standards, would you complain to me to take the knife back (which is no longer NIB, by the way)?

That's the danger that I see for classifying purely unopened boxes as NIB.

What if the following happened:

I ordered a knife new from a dealer or manufacturer, never opened the box or packaging (i.e. never inspected it), and then resold it to you as NIB. And when you received it and unpackaged it, you discovered that there was a cosmetic or mechanical flaw with the knife. Would you be upset and feel you didn't get what you paid for?

That's exactly what I'm saying. And now they want a refund, and you get back a knife that is no longer "NIB" according to some peoples' standards.

 

[hardheart]

Many production knives are assembled by hand, sharpened by hand, tested by hand, and packaged by hand. There are plenty of boogers from the factory from all the playing/use they receive before being allowed to go out the door.

Guns are test fired before they get shipped out.

Cars are driven onto the trucks, off of the trucks, around the lot, and then test driven by potential buyers.

Unless you buy factory direct, someone has bought and taken ownership of the product before you do. "New" has a pretty arbitrary definition, a lot of things are completely impossible to buy unused or previously owned.

 

[FLymon]

This is very questionalble.

Let's say I buy a new knife from online dealer. At what point is becomes "old"? As soon as I pay for it, or when I take the box out of the shipping packaging?
Let's say I bought a knife in a blister pack (completely sealed) from WalMart. I brought it home. I own it. Explain to me in which way it is not new.

Walmart sells it as new, you would be selling it as pre-owned. If I buy it from you will you exchange it for me if I don't like it? or help me get warranty sevice from the manufacturer 8 months from now. Walmart will because they sell new knives.

Here is another one. Guy goes to a local brick and mortar store to buy a new High-end knife. Dealer has a knife on display, but because Guy wants to make sure that the knife he pays for (a lot of money) is perfect in every way, he wants to inspect the one he's going to pay for. Knife comes is a regular box (like most high-end knife do, or maybe even without box). So dealer opens a box, show him the knife. Guy is such a weird perfectionist, he finds that lockup is a bit further than he likes. Gives the knife back, dealer puts it back in the box and back on the shelf. They give him another one. Guy finds the blade centering is a bit off (1 micron to the right). He doesn't buy that one either. Next one Guy doesn't like because grind looks a bit uneven. Etc... Finally he buys 1 knife after handling 5 knives with his booger hands. So the one he paid for is not new anymore, but the other ones that he rejected are still new?
Expand this a bit more. Let's say this Brick&Mortar dealer also sells online. Well, you have a very good chance of buying a NIB knife handled by bugger hands of Guy The Perfectionist.

All the ones Guy did not buy are still new, the one that Guy did buy is now pre-owned. Guy can take it back where he bought it new if there is a problem, but if you buy the knife from Guy he probably wont be willing or able to help you with any warranty issues down the road. And you shouldn't expect him to since you bought it pre-owned.




So while you and Guy bought new knives, anyone buying them from you is buying something that is pre-owned, or maybe "like new".

 

[Kaizen1]

Well, it is a back and forth, but just a friendly one...

There is no need to repeat yourself here, as I understood you first time. You are merely stating what the designation "NIB" means to you. You are making your opinion known. But the OP isn't interested in your or my or anybody's individual opinions on the matter--he is interested in what the general consensus is among the trading community. Surely we can agree that those are two different concepts. Are you saying that you believe your opinion on "NIB" agrees or disagrees with the general consensus? It's your opinion about the consensus he is asking for. So again, I ask you: there are many knives on the trade forum listed as "NIB". Do you really believe these people haven't put their "booger fingers" on the knives they've purchased?

More food for thought: Do you not realize that knives come into contact with several sets of booger fingers as they are assembled and packaged at the point of production?

By the way, the phrase "playing with it" is way too subjective to mean anything in this context. Is opening and closing the knife considered "playing with it". Are you referring to playing baseball with it? Or are you perhaps referring to masturbation?

While I don't disagree that new knives go through many peoples hands in the factory, dealers and new owners, I don't see any strawman being committed. The OP doesn't say anything about "the general consensus." That's left open in the original post. Powernoodle is clearly not the only person in this thread giving his opinion on the interpretation of "NIB." He implicitly states that his interpretation is his opinion when he says "I know I'm in the minority on this one." So it's not like he's pretending that his opinion is the consensus. His interpretation may or may not hold up, but there's no strawman there.