No flames last time. Lets try agian.

Joined
Feb 16, 2000
Messages
1,385
Okay...
We made it through the knife fighting tread. Good work guys.
Lets move on.
Lots of talk in the tactical world regarding weapons usage.
So...

.556 vs .308
and
9mm vs 45acp
We are talking about usage in a gunfight.
Lets hear it.


Edited because my browser only recognizes the question mark?:mad:
 
I assume you mean 5.56, as opposed to .556.

If you mean .556, then I guess that would be superior to the .308, at least at close range.

Just being a smart ass.:)
 
Mick,

Give us more detail on the scenario. Are we talking team action or individual action? Are we talking military weapons, SWAT weapons or civilian weapons in related scenarios? Is this a MBR vs. Assault Rifle discussion for military applications discussion?

In my opinion this info in relevant.

killerkain
 
Generally, i've heard that the 9mm will overpenetrate soft areas in a target becuase of smaller profile and higher velocity that a .45, and that's dangerous because anyone else can get hit. For practicality issues, i use a Glock 17 because it's more comfortable for me to carry than a .45 is. I never thought of "modifying" a 1911 until I read stuff on this forum. I always usually left my guns alone for the most part. If you look at the M855 5.56mm NATO cartridge, it has a 62gr steel core FMJ boat tailed bullet that fragments, generally messing with the softer internals:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/M855.jpg

Here's one for the 9mm, note how far it travels:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/9mm US M882.jpg

And here's the .45:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/45 ACP WW STHP.jpg

Shot placement is good to train on, but from vets i've talked to, some people will lose that and go into spray and pray mode.
 
As far as the 45 vs 9mm debate, I personally have a 45 (SIG P220) as my personal/home defense handgun.

My reasons/opinions for choosing this round are that a 45 will usually(depending on the rounds/bullet type involved) generate a larger wound channel as well as transmit more force to the BG, producing shock in the BG's body on a larger scale. I believe there are far more one stop shots with a 45 than 9mm.

I don't have any hard facts to verify what I just said up, but I'm more comfortable with my 45. In a gunfight I'd be happy with either one rather than having nothing at all...
 
5.56 has been shown to penetrate less through drywall than 9mm in CQB situations...
 
Originally posted by DB1
As far as the 45 vs 9mm debate, I personally have a 45 (SIG P220) as my personal/home defense handgun.

I believe there are far more one stop shots with a 45 than 9mm.

Everything that I've read indicates that "one shot stops" are not that much different between 9mm and .45. I like your choice of gun though. I tend to think that practice, practice, practice is more important than the choice between these two calibers. You need to become very proficient with your gun.
As to the 5.56 and .308, I would think that in a situation where you need a long shot, sniper style, the .308 would be the better choice, and in more close quarters situations the 5.56 would be better. But I suppose it would also depend on the gun. Overall, I'd say the 5.56 would be the better all-around choice that would work well in a wider variety of situations.
 
This is simple. A 9mm is a .45 set on stun. No question it doesn't get any better than a good 1911.

.223 is a great round as long as it is not the M855 military round. That round is garbage. So here again I think I will take .308. This round is much more versatile and you have a lot of differen't options to modify weapons and ammo alike.

KillerKain- I didn't know there was a difference between how you shoot military weapons, SWAT weapons, and personal weapons. They all shoot the same rounds. Hit what your aiming at and they all kill people the same way.

How's that for starting SH*T MICK?

Vinnie
 
As far as pistol caliber, I like the .45 better because I can hit a target better with it than a 9mm. That is because for several years, the only gun I ever shot with was a 1911. The only 9mm i've ever owned or shot was a Sig226 and 228, and I don't like pivoting triggers as much as the straight pull trigger 1911 I think this aspect of the 1911 is very good, at least for me. The other 9mm was the HK P-7 and the area under the barrel heats up pretty fast with rapid firing and you couldn't hold onto it very long without letting it cool off. I owned a Glock but never shot it much.

I don't think one round is that much better than the other when it comes to "handgun battle" ranges, whatever they may be. If the 9mm penetrates so much, then why is issued? I've read that the .45 is "inherently accurate" over the 9mm, but I think that is mostly for the target/national match shooters and their reloads, not really that important an aspect for gun fights.

Yes, I prefer a 45 because it is what I like to shoot, but in a gun battle, I think hitting the guy in a vital area is more important than the caliber. Hit the brain at 20 feet with a 45 or 9mm, does it really matter that much if it is a 45 or 9mm hollowpoint?

As far as 5.56 and 7.62 for a CQB weapon, I'd probably choose a 5.56. Actually, I'd probably go with the 9mm. For a long range sniper weapon out to 6 to 700 yards, the 7.62. For urban (out to 300 yards), or shorter range sniper weapons, 5.56 or 7.62 would do. But I still think it is the shot placement that counts.

Harrydog pointed out that caliber choice sometimes depends on the type of gun abd I agree. Most 7.62 weapons are big and long (m-14, FNFal, HK91/PGS1/MSG90, bolt guns M40A1 or 3, etc...). Is the FNFal a good CQB weapon? You could use it, but it probably wouldn't be a first choice. 5.56 weapons are a little more compact (M-4).
 
Hey alright,
You guys jumped in right away.
Yes I meant 5.56mm vs 7.62mm. Sorry about the typo.
"So I whipped out my .556incher!" Yikes!!

I'm talking GP rifle/carbine and GP handgun.
There are no parameters because you can have only one each.
Choose wisely.

Great posts so far.

Why are you holding back Vince?



Mick
 
No parameters huh?
Hmmm...
Okay, you did say "gunfight." Generally speaking, this means fairly close range. There aren't lot of 600 to 1000 yard gunfights. Fair statement?

Given any scenario that I am ever likely to face in the rest of my life, my choices are 5.56 and .45acp.

The ruling out of the .308 is not because of the cartridge, but in the restrictions of the "delivery system."

My shorty, (AR-15, 11.5" hvy bbl w/long flash suppressor and collapsable stock) is much better suited for "in home" use than an M-1A. It's also more than powerful and accurate enough for anything out to 200 yards. I can't imagine ever needing more.

Why the (1911).45?
It hits harder.
It's what I shoot best with.
 
The 45 auto is a good year round weapon. the 9mm is good for t-shirt weather when layered clothing in winter weather will not turn a decent hollow cavity into cloth filled ball ammo. This is a moot point for enlisted personnel with no choice in ammuntion selection, go for the larger dia ball.

I hate to say it but for tactical rifle I would go for the 5.56mm. Within 100 meters the 5.56 wound cavity is almost identical to the 7.62(again this is with civillan ammo choices). Recoil is non almost non-existant, controlled burst and full auto fire capable. Much lighter load in ammunition and weapon. Try packing a G3 or M14 for any distance with full load of ammo.
 
.45 and .308 all the way.

I've had several AR-15s with fuctioning problems (both Colt and Bushmaster), and I think the M1A/M14 system is a more reliable system. Also, with a .308, you don't need to concern yourself with rate of twist or double tapping, like you do with a .223. The .308 gives you a much greater potential for one shot, one kill.

I just read the book Blackhawk Down, and a lot of the Somalis who were hit with .223s either kept on fighting, or lived long enough to get behing a wall for cover. Our guys were then left guessing whether or not they hit the bad guy, or whether or not he was still alive and shooting back at them. This is Bull$hit. You don't need all the extraneous worry in a gunfight. Use a .308, see the bad guy get hit and go down, probably dead.

Over the past twenty years or so I've heard the theory that, by using a 9mm, you wound the bad guy. This will then require one of his buddies to drag him off the field, so you are essentially taking out two men. This theory is Bull$hit. In reality, you want to take the bad guy out ASAP to a point where he cannot fight back. Kill him as fast as possible. His buddies can do whatever they want with the corpse. You have a better chance of taking out the bad guy with a .45. Also, the recoil of a .45 is not bad at all. In fact, I prefer it to a 9mm, which seems to have more of a crack to it.

Go with the biggest round that you can shoot comfortably. And neither the .308 nor the .45 are unconfortable to shoot.
 
i prefer 9mm because it is what I can afford to practice with, and to me a weapon is useless if you don't practice quite a bit. i like the 45 and may start reloading to shoot more. with ball ammo, I think 45 is far superior, however with good 9mm loads (such as the gold dot 124 gr+P) I think the 9mm starts hitting the low to mid end of 45 effectiveness.
I shoot a 9mm faster and more accurately than a 45 simply because it's what I practice with, and the 9mm recoils a bit less. Sure the 45 is a more powerful round, but I don't think it's the end all be all magic bullet-that's a rifle round.:D
I'm looking forward to learning from the "real world" experience from you guys in this thread.

cheers,
Derek
 
I must agree with Vinnie on the .45acp, and Ill keep the 5.56 with good bullets. Of course it is very hard to beat the 7.62, hmmmmmmmmmmm Do I have to pick just one?
 
Personally, I have owned and shot both 9mm & .45 caliber semiautos of varying makes and models. Although I do prefer SIG pistols and 1911's. Both are accurate & capable calibers.....if the shooter does his/her part. It's all about shot placement. Put a bullet in a person's medulla oblongata, and they're done. As far as rifle calibers go, I prefer 5.56 due to the range that I will most likely be engaging targets/personnel. For short/medium distance it serves a purpose. Again, what's more important is the delivery system. I own a Colt AR/M4 clone. I wish I had a SIG 550, but that's a different issue. Side note: the "Blackhawk Down" book also relates that Somalis were hit by both 5.56 & 7.62 and STILL did not die.

Adrian
 
...and as such, I'm gonna lean towards 'lighter is better', that what I can carry the most of, for the longest distance...

Ergo, SIG 226/228 with 147's and CAR-15 with SS109's are going to be my choice's...

Questions; 1. Why is it I get the impression that Vinnie types a few lines, then 'laces up the gloves'? ;)

2. My best shooting bud Keith Brown, 101st abn, deceased, passed away 2 years ago now...I've grown fat and lazy since...I need to start desert shooting again, I need shooting buddies. Any (serious) takers here in So. Cal? (San Diego County)

Anyone here, other than me, ever shoot with the 'So. Cal. Guns' boys?

If you have, you'll know what I'm talking about... :D

Mel
 
Quick photo of a two hour gun Battle. I had a handgun, the BG a 30-06. The distance was 74 yards. guess who lost?
 
Since YOUR writing this…..
Glad your still with us Wolfmann601.
Looks like you may have had a little pucker factor on that day.

Mick
 
Back
Top