NO HOLDS BARRED! Which steel cuts best?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jim Beam
  • Start date Start date
Ceramics, including composites, are not even in the same league as steel in terms of cutting ability for general use blades. The functional edge strength and toughness is too low and the edges need to have vastly inferior geometries (more obtuse) in order to support this. I would guess the same goes for Talonite based on what I have read mainly from Steve and Joe.

-Cliff
 
GaKnife

Forgive my earlier flip attitude....but my understanding of wootz is that it is a method of manufacture rather than a steel type. If this is the case, quality is going to vary from maker to maker according to individual skill and ingredients used. To promote it as a "killer" material would seem to be ignoring the inevitable "bad" examples.

If my knowledge of wootz is lacking, I apologize and await details.



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BrianWE

Believe me....being this old and having to live with all this experience is not the picnic I thought it was going to be.
 
Cliff,
Is the 52100 blade you are waiting on from Ed Fowler?

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If it's stupid but works, then it isn't stupid!
 
Brian, you're right to a degree. True Wootz is a process, but the formula is simple and the process can't vary a lot to get decent results. Wootz is Iron and Carbon, nothing else. It's unique qualities appear to come from the manner in which the Carbides are formed and precipitated in the Iron matrix. The amount of Carbon is quite high, and it is all formed into Carbides.

The original post was 'the steel that has the sharpest edge?' Historical reports on the performace of Wootz steel up to and including the present suggests it is truly a superior steel. If it's not, it just doesn't get to be called "Wootz".

All I know is what I've read. I did see some of Pendray's Wootz though, and I understand he was able to cut free-hanging silk with it.

You may be right, but to ignore good examples because of bad examples might be equally flawed.

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Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
I have a knife from Ed Fowler in 52100. It is the most beautiful and functional piece of steel I have ever used. The temper lines are just gorgeous. The knife has a convex edge and sharpens so easily just with a ceramic stone. That plus reading all about Ed's knives just adds to the lore.

52100 is a great high carbon steel.

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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska

 
Great, Kodiak. Sounds orgasmic.
But, did you respect it in the morning ?

wink.gif




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BrianWE

Believe me....being this old and having to live with all this experience is not the picnic I thought it was going to be.
 
GaKnife

you say :"Historical reports on the performace of Wootz steel up to and including the present suggests it is truly a superior steel. If it's not, it just doesn't get to be called "Wootz"."


"historical" suggests "old".
Knives and steels have made huge progress in VERY recent times. And to say "it just doesn't get to be called "wootz" is a very handy way of excluding the failures.
They are called "Woopz" or similar ?

Reminds me of the bloke on rec.knives who said he liked the tanto as a penetrator because "it was good enough for the Japanese".
Didn't say WHICH Japanese Tanto.....there were so many.

Mate, I have no problem with Wootz.....it's just your reliance on word of mouth and "history" to declare something you have not experienced as "the best".

Me ?
I don't know what is the best.....haven't tried them all under ALL circumstances.
My favorite ? D2. Tried it.....love it.


Not trying to be a pain in the rear.....it is a talent.




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BrianWE

Believe me....being this old and having to live with all this experience is not the picnic I thought it was going to be.
 
I am guessing forged 52100 also. Not only because I have been reading Ed Fowler's articles for several years, but because I own a couple of PJ Tomes knives made from 52100. Mr. Tomes uses that steel because he thinks it is the Best steel for Using knives. The carbide grain size is Much smaller than other steel alloys (on the order of billionths of an inch, according to PJ). The steel is somewhat difficult to work and requires special salt bath quenches and A LOT of experience to forge properly.

As always, the tempering process is Critical. The working properties of the blade are determined After hardening of the blade by tempering, or melting some of the crystalline structure back into glass.

My knives work great. They sharpen easily. Shaving hair is not even the beginning of how sharp they can be. And surprisingly, Mr. Tomes does Not think differential tempering of blades made from 52100 less than about 6 inches is necessary or useful. I was truly shocked by this revealation.

Of course, there is NO ideal steel. Ever steel alloy has its merits and flaws. The critical steps of the Quenching AND tempering process, ideally suited for the alloy, shape, length, width, and thickness of the blade, determines how well the blade will perform in actual use. And how Sharp it can be. Or how long it will last. Or how well it will cut. Defining blade performance is an Art of its own.

Paracelsus, student of bladeology

Oh, Brian, being a pain in the rear is not talent, it's just interesting
Jerry, what do you have?
smile.gif

Everyone else, search up the lore and wisdom of Cliff Stamp and learn
 
Brian,
Respect it? Respect it? Are you kidding? I even talk dirty to it to get it sharper. LOL!

Sometimes when I'm real naughty I even mink oil the sheath......

(sorry too much info and I just switched to decaf)

Greg
 
Jerry :

[Wootz]

The amount of Carbon is quite high, and it is all formed into Carbides.
Click to expand...

Regardless, iron carbide is quite soft compared to the alloy carbides. I can't see that steel outperforming a high Vanadium carbide steel for example. Have you have any direct experience with it? Has anyone here?

Misque, no it is from Ed Caffery, ground by Allen Blade. Ed offered to do the heat treat when Allen enquired about getting some stock from him. This was an unexpected bonus for me as I have been reading Ed's posts here for some time and am very interested in the performance of his steel because of them.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 02-11-2000).]
 
Cliff,
Excellent! I'm looking forward to reading your test results with a good deal of anticipation.
My experience with 52100 comes from Marble's knives and a bowie I have that was forged by Lowell Bray. I understand he was going to use the knife as his test blade for Journeyman status in the ABS up at Pigeon Forge, but I snagged it out of the knife store before he got it back(by accident). Lucky break for me.
He told me at the Blade Show that he learned to heat treat 52100 from Charlie Ochs, and I hear Mr. Ochs is a master at this. All I know is the knife takes one helluva great edge, holds it tenaciously and sharpens almost too easily. I'm enamored with this steel and look forward to seeing how it works for you. Looks to me like it might be "all that and a bag of chips, too".

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If it's stupid but works, then it isn't stupid!
 
Cliff, I believe the "Carbides" are Iron Carbide. I'm surprised you're not familiar with Wootz steel. You might want to consult with Al Pendray, President of the Knifemakers Guild, who currently makes it and has demonstrated its performance.

As for the alloy issue. 52100, which is receiving high marks on this thread, contains only 1.1% Carbon, .5% Manganese, 1.5% Chromium, and no Vanadium or other carbide-producing elements.

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Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com




[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 02-10-2000).]
 
Originally posted by GaKnife:

As for the alloy issue. 52100, which is receiving high marks on this thread, contains only 1.1% Carbon, .5% Manganese, 1.5% Chromium, and no Vanadium or other carbide-producing elements.

[/B]
Click to expand...

Just goes to show how "iffy" OPINIONS can be.
That's why "IMO" is such an important part of the forums. When we get sucked into naming the "best"....well, you know.

brianWE

I don't want to be right all of the time....I just want US to be right more often.




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BrianWE

Believe me....being this old and having to live with all this experience is not the picnic I thought it was going to be.
 
I like my 52100 and if I remember correctly from a seminar about 2 years ago, Al Pendray said the carbon was .707 in his wootz. The amazing thing that wootz does is maintain the distance between the layers of carbides and if you change (turn 90 deg.) the piece your working on, the wootz layers will change also. Reason being is that they are dissolved when heated and form again after cooling. "THAT" is what I call amazing about wootz.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
Jerry, thanks for the correction. You should see my posts before I edit them a couple of times. As for Wootz I have yet to read either an explanation for the basis for high performance or first hand reports of such. Thanks for the reference I will contact Al.

As for 52100, I don't think it will out wear the CPM blades I have, however I think it will be better in certain areas, and I am curious as to the functional impact that this will make in regards to the scope of work of the blade.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, on the performance issue, CPM's are certainly impressive. I wasn't fully aware just how impressive until I recently did a few knives in CPM-3V. I think there will be a review of one by a customer on the Forums soon. From earlier experience with 440V I was only impressed with its toughness in working and wear resistance. The CPM-3V also takes a wicked edge, but then too my edge geometries have been refined some since the 440V work. Another variable was heat treating. Paul Bos does all my heat treating now, and I am convinced that makes a huge difference, especially in high alloy steels like CPM's which are hardened at higher temperatures than most other steels. Also, grain refinement achieved by cryogenic quenching at the proper point in the cycle then triple tempering is critical to achieving a fine edge. There are some other properties about CPM-3V that impress me as well, like its remarkable flexibility even at Rc59-60.

Still, I don't think it will cut a free-hanging silk scarf. THAT is a tough test by any measure. The reason it is hard to get good data on Wootz is that it is not available commercially and is only fashioned by those who actually make the steel. I am trying desperately to get some from Russia, and may be able to later this year, but for now I can only report what I've heard and read.



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Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Great Responce!!

So far it seems like the favorites are D2 and 52100 but i have yet to find any 52100 bar stock.. does anyone sell it?
Thanks every one for the input!
j
 
There may be a few distributors of 52100 bar stock (I think Ed Fowler told me that--I'm not 100% sure though) but most 52100 E bearing steel comes from just that; ball bearings such as the ones taken from large cranes, oil rigs, crushers and such. Makers who use 52100 have to develope their own billets which makes the forged knife even more special IMO since it really is hand made. There are many articles in Ed's book Knife talk that discuss making a knife from this type of steel.

Regards,

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~Greg Mete~
Kodiak Alaska

 
'Cuts best' is too vauge as there is still a lot of variation considering toughness vs edge holding. Make a thin blade very hard and it will 'cut best' but it will also obviously be brittle. The CPM steels seem to do well at both properties, CPM 3V if toughness is needed and 10V if edge holding is more important than toughness, and for perhaps even better toughness at lower cost it seems that some lower alloy steels are also a good bet. Looking at high speed steels M50 is a lower alloy steel among the tungsten tool steels, used for drills and such that need good impact resistance, and appears like a good candidate for a knife steel if chrome for heat treating and vanadium for grain control is desired as alloying elements and tough carbides. Something like a 6180 to 6190 would also seem like a good candidate even though I've not seen anything other than 6150 offered, a steel that is evidently what is used when 'chrome-vanadium' steel is advertised as being used for tools. L2 with chrome and vanadium also seems like a potentially good steel, but I've not seen knives made from it or 61XX or M50.
 
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