NO HOLDS BARRED! Which steel cuts best?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jim Beam
  • Start date Start date
Jim Beam and Kodiak,

Ed Caffrey sells 52100 in bar stock form...
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey/barstock.htm


Regarding Wootz damascus, how can it be determined whether Al Pendray's steel is the same as the almost mythical Wootz steel of the past, which I've heard is a lost art? Has some sort of comparative analysis been performed between his steel and a "genuine" Wootz blade from the past?

Ryan

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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
Thanks Ryan,
I thought I read somewhere that there is some 52100 stock out there.

Greg
 
At the seminar on wootz, Al had samples of the real stuff on loan from some museums as well as blades made from wootz. Al used the same type of primative crucibles made from some of the same type of material to duplicate the process untill he figured out the proper procedure. After the smelting process to make then steel, the crucibles had to be broken to get it out.
One of the samples passed around was from (I think) about the 16th century or when ever it was they were making it. Some of the steel was stolen and taken to other smiths to make the wootz blades. But without the knowldge necessary to cause it to precipate into the layers, it didn't do them any good.
Real wootz will have all the layers the same distance apart so that if you measure the distance between the layers, you can tell if it is for real. I apologize for forgetting that part of the presentation but I was kind of in awe that it would actually happpen every time.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
This is my first post. My experience has been that edges don't normally wear off, they chip off. 52100 is good steel as are most steels being used today IF they are properly hardened. Seen a lot of good steel with bad hardening. Had a Talonite blade made by a custom maker with a great reputation that chipped out so bad I had to send the knife back. He told me it was ground to thin on the edge and he would make me another. He did and it didn't do much better. Had big half moon chips out of it the size of nickels. Frozen oak and talonite don't get along to well. Got a refund from the maker. Had a Large O-1 blade with 10" blade cost me almost $900.00. Special secret hardening system used on it to. It busted up as bad as the Talonite. Didn't get a refund or replacement, just screwed. I've got lots of knives. I spend thousands every year like most of you. Some I think are perfect. But lots just don't make it. Just my two cents.

 
Static Line,

Welcome to the Forums. I got some questions regarding the Talonite knives:

1. How thick was the original Talonite knife, and how thick was the substitute?

2. What were the dimensions of both the knives? What kind of blade geometry?

3. What kind of use that damaged the knives? Chopping? Just plain cutting? What kind of performace did you see when you used it to slice?

I also have a new Talonite knife and so far have not done as much testing as I would like to. Thanks.

Edit: misspelled words


[This message has been edited by Frantium (edited 02-14-2000).]
 
ALL OF THE ABOVE POSTS PROVE ONE THING!


There are good steels for every knife blade size and purpose.

If you havent used many of them then how can you determine which is best for what knife blade and style?

Talonite (STELLITE) works best with a thicker edge.
George Young and Kit Carson have been using it for years on folders without a problem.
Experience with the material and edge geometry make the differnce in good blades
Rob Simonich has much expereince here also..
Ask what purpose this material was designed and is used best for.

Once again the maker who has expereince with many steels of all types should recommend a steel for the knife style and purpose you are looking for.

3V
I have made a few blades with 3v. It seems to perform well.
Look for an upcoming 3V write up in a mag soon.
WOOTZ
I was shocked when seeing the carbide alignment in wootz also. Al is the man when it comes to wootz.. What a task to reproduce that steel.

GREAT steel.


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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
New Web at www.darrelralph.com

 
Jerry, the silk cutting sounds interesting I have cut it before when but not freehanging. I will have to see if I can't get a few bolts and try it.

Static Line, do you have any blades that could take the use that damaged the O1 and Talonite knives?

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

I've got some customs made out of A-2 that stood up to the same treatment pretty good. I have three big camp knives made from 52100. One did very good and two didn't. All are from different makers. Four big ones from D-2 chipped out along the edge but in much smaller almost microscpic chips. The knives that blew me away were the knives I have made from INFI. I have a Battle Mistress that has to be seen to be believed. It outchops any of the kukris that I have, production or custom. DOn't know why. And a Basic 9 and 7 that tear it up to. None of these blades when put through the same treatment even showed signs of wear. I don't know enough about making steel to know what makes this stuff so great but it must have something that the others don't. I'll say this. Most knives don't do well with frozen oak. The oak destroys them.
On the other hand INFI kicks the hell out frozen oak and every other tree I've chopped with it. If Busse ever lets other makers use this stuff it will take over like ATS-34 did. It seems to be real stainless to. Don't know why. In case your wondering I try not to say anything bad about anybody especially knifemakers. I really admire these craftsmen. I'm not to quick to give out a makers name if his knives don't hold up. I will give out there names if there product is great. Some of the greats include Crawford, Loveless, Busse, Fowler, Zowada, Davidson, Neally. There are many others but I've never been disappointed by any of these makers so far and I own at least three knives from each of them.
 
Static Line, thanks for the information. Is your Battle Mistress a custom model or is it just the regular version? And concerning the frozen oak, yes, hard wood chopping is very stressful on a blade indeed.

-Cliff
 
I never really cared for carbon steel blades, but they are growing on me. I just have to learn to wipe 'em down more often than I would with stainless steels. One thing I am noticing though, you can really get a good edge on a high carbon steel blade much faster and easier in most cases than with stainless steels.

Did I see in a couple posts here in this thread 420 J2? YEAK! Had a knife with this steel before, threw it out!
biggrin.gif



 
oops

[This message has been edited by Onehandclapping (edited 02-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Onehandclapping (edited 02-14-2000).]
 
As a mechanical engineer/knife collector, I was given the dream task one day, years ago. On a piece of equipment that cut waste from a juice packing machine we needed a better blade that wouldn't get dull quickly. The material was eighth inch thick multi layer plastic with foil/Seran, heat applied, on top of it. All together there was about six layers of plastic and a layer of aluminum. The machine was one that made those little aseptic (sterile) juice cups you see in hospitals and on airplanes. We were cutting the waste after the cups were cut out. The waste was cut into small pieces for easier disposal into a dumpster. Rust was a problem due to the wet environment, the harsh cleaning solutions and the juice (high acid, cranberry, orange, etc.) the regularly came in contact with the waste cutting machine. The blade was a quarter inch thick piece of steel, about 18 inches long and two inches high. I was going to take the easy way out and use 440C. It was easy to get, and had all the properties I was looking for. But I decided to do some experiments, just to be sure. Plus it was a lot of fun to be PAID to play with sharp things.

The blade was tied to a hydraulic piston that moved it down against a smooth bar, so it acted like a big, power scissors to cut the packaging waste. I made up a bunch of little piston powered cutters, and fed them a roll of plastic and aluminum foil. I had a recording pressure gage attached to all this. When the pressure reached a certain level it meant that the blade was dull. The test machine would be set up and let run unattended, it would shut off at a certain pressure and record the number of cuts that were made. Pretty clever, huh? I was very proud of myself, plus had tons of fun making it. I wish I had taken it with me when I retired. I could rent it out to all the knife maker so they could test their steels, edge angles, heat treating, and anything else they were interested in. If anyone out there wants to build one, send me an e-mail.

I had a machinist make e several test blades, 2 inches long sharp edge, quarter inch thick, one inch high, out of every type of steel I could find. They were given an edge angle of 20 degrees. This was a punishing machine that really beat on the blade for long hours, so I couldn't use a steeper angle for fear of breaking it. Picture a machine going "kerCHUNK, kerCHUNK, kerCHUNK, kerCHUNK, kerCHUNK, kerCHUNK, kerCHUNK, kerCHUNK, kerCHUNK, for hours on end and you can see this was not an easy life for the cutting edge. A 15 or 10 degree angle gave us less pressure on the gage, but broke down after a short time. I don't have my notes any more, but I used all the tool steels and all the stainless types I could find through local metal dealers. I also contacted my old college for any odd ball steels they might have had, but they couldn't help me. If my memory is still working, the winner on my test was M2, followed very closely by D2 and finally O1. None of the stainless steels tried survived the rough treatment. We ended up using O1 due to cost. We coated it with Teflon, and the operator was told to dry it after cleaning and spray t with WD-40 during operation. We added an auto oiler after a while, because the operator forgot to spray it. The auto oiler added a lot of time to its life, almost doubling it.

Problems with all this? MANY if you try and apply it to knife blades. I won't bore you, all of you are smart enough to see how this doesn't exactly transpose to the knife world. It was fun and I learned a lot about cutting plastic and foil. Making this testing machine with other materials being fed to the cutting edge would be an interesting task.


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I STILL say 52100 takes the best edge.

And anybody who thinks otherwise ...

might be right.

There is no ideal steel. Is there?

Paracelsus, confused person
 
first you must ask, what are you cutting. some things would BREAK cutting certain materials...such as a ceramic blade cutting aluminum. but for the best i would have to say 52100 from a master smith. I dont use it, have never seen it, but have talked to people who know more than i about the subject. they also say that 420V runs a close second. we are talking about knives, built by people right..I have carbide knives that will shear boards for months, and diamond wheels that will grind off carbide like butter...and then theres stuff that you cant buy unless you are a government or something...ken onion has showed me some samples of some of that stuff.

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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
RE: 52100

In the October 1997 issue of BLADE Magazine, Ed Fowler reported on a 52100 blade tested by Metallographic Laboratory Services. The owner of the lab stated that the sample had the finest grain structure in the cutting edge of any steel he had ever examined, with carbide size between 1/2 and 1 micron. As Mr. Fowler said, "This is as fine as it gets," comparing it to D2 at 10-15 microns and 440V at 2-4 microns.
I contacted Mr. Fowler early last year about that test blade, and he told me the blade had been forged and heat treated by Rick Dunkerley. I contacted Rick, who furnished me a knife, and I then began corresponding with him about joining him on an elk hunt this coming fall, 2000. Besides being an ABS master bladesmith, Rick is a professional hunting guide in the Scapegoat and Bob Marshall Wilderness Areas in Montana.
In November 1999, as we were finalzing the details of the hunt, he mentioned a knife he had forged for himself of CPM 10V. The blade is mentioned by Phil Wilson in an article on 10V in the February 2000 issue of Knives Illustrated. I convinced Rick to sell me the knife.
In his letter conveying the knife, Rick confirms, "As close as I can recall I dressed 3 elk, and 2 whitetails with it. This includes caping on 2 of the elk and 1 deer. I only sharpened the knife to send it to you, it was still cutting fine. This steel is very aggressive and cuts better than anything I've used to date."

In rope cutting tests I've done, the knife has performed very well, but is not as aggressive as thin, flat-ground blades out of David Boye's BDS or BDC. However, Rick's blade is convex ground with a high angle edge bevel for heavy duty use--such as splitting the pelvis of a bull elk.

On a further note, comparing 52100 with CPM steels, PJ Tomes is quoted in an April 1998 Knives Illustrated article by Phil Wilson as saying that in his experience, CPM 420V "out-cuts all others hands down." I have since obtained knives from PJ in 52100 and 420V, and the 420V is definitely the more aggressive cutter. I have yet to find anything as aggressive as David Boye's dendritic materials, however.



[This message has been edited by WILL YORK (edited 02-22-2000).]
 
Will :

I have since obtained knives from PJ in 52100 and 420V, and the 420V is definitely the more aggressive cutter. I have yet to find anything as aggressive as David Boye's dendritic materials, however.
Click to expand...

Will, do your other blades have as an acute an edge profile as Boye's? What finish to you like to leave them at? What kinds of cutting do you normally do, are they mainly push cuts or slices?

-Cliff
 
Cliff--
I have Boye knives in different formats. I have hollow ground folders in steel, a Basic 3 in cobalt flat ground to a fairly thick edge, and hunters in both steel and cobalt, flat ground to a fairly thin edge. None of these edges have particularly low-angle secondary bevels. I maintain the blades primarily with a ceramic rod and steel, and when necessary on a Lansky at between 17 and 20 degrees, depending on the knife.
With the folders, in daily carry, I cut the typical types of material--rope, string, cardboard. The hunters see heavy use on deer, feral hogs and an occasional elk. The animals are processed entirely in the field and kitchen, from field dressing and skinning through boning out.
The hunters, in a 4" drop point format, flat ground, have the thinnest edges and the most aggressive bite. The Basic 3, with the thicker edge profile, is not competitive--Boye's thin grind on his hunters and folders(blade thinness--not secondary edge bevel thinness) definitely contributes to the aggressive cutting action. But comparing knives with similar profiles, the Boyes are noticeably more "aggressive", which to me means more bite and quicker cutting with a slicing action.
 
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