no hype reviews/evaluations

Here are some questions: Would the information about what the steel was and who got the duds ever get out? If it didn't would the information obtained from the reviews do us any good? I am assuming that you would release the information after the evaluations were complete. Then we could evaluate our results against our presuppositions about knives with specifications like the ones that were tested. This way we could evaluate the correctness of our presuppositions. This idea would provide a good body of unbiased test data to predict how knives with the characteristics tested will preform.

Some other questions: How many people are you looking for? Will you (Cliff) pay for all the test knives or will the members of the test group all put in something?

I am interested in participating, but I am not currently sure about whether it will be possible for me to participate.
 
'never burn bridges.'
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Inspectors with friends are the very people you don't want inspecting anything.

An evaluation based purely on performance, when performed in as unbiased a manner as possible, is a good thing for the industry whether it is to the benefit of a particular maker or not.

I support many makers/manufacturers for one simple reason, they meet all the criteria I set forth for that piece of cutlery.

If you do not meet the criteria of a given performance spec, for whatever reason, the industry does not owe you what many would term a free ride. Make the product perform, or get out of the way.

E-mail sent.
 
I'll send off an e-mail. Sounds like fun, I'll just have to make the time in my schedule to do some real testing. It will definately be enlightening to me, and I'm sure a lot can be learned about testing methods from all of the different reviews. It will be interesting to see how many people, and using what methods, get the best performance from the "optimal" knife, and how many find no practical difference. I know I definately have set expectations on how a knife should perform based on reviews I've seen, steel type & quoted hardness, edge geometry, ect. Taking away all that info will really be a great test of how valid my reviewing methods and tests are. Being a relative newbie (only getting somewhat seriously into the hobby and sharpening earlier this year), I will check my ego at the door on this one and try to learn as much as possible. I may look like a moron after all the results are tallied (I hope not), but hey, that's how you learn.
 
My point is that knives are not merely tools. Few of us look at a knife the way we look at a hammer. When evaluating a knife, as in evaluating another "tool" like a car, the aesthetics have to be taken into account. Function does not always come before form--there is reason to sacrifice function sometimes. To only see the performance of steels and primary grinds overlooks one of the most important features.

Conventional reviews are wholly adequate for the average knife buyer. Addressing the subjective issues of aesthetics, ergonomics, weight, etc, is at least as valuable as the 4% edge retention difference between that steel and another. I'm not sure who needs to know the engineering, exactly. Maybe knife makers/manufacturers? Definitely not me.

I'm not debating that Cliff's system is a bad idea, not in the least, only that I get the impression that some believe conventional reviews are inadequate and I have to disagree.

IF however, we wanted to examine the knife as a whole in a way that removes the bias I discussed before (where we only buy knives that we have a 97% chance of loving), I would say that manufacturers should send a knife each in the same genre of knife as the other maker/manufacturer (maybe a 710 from Benchmade, a Manix from Spyderco, an Offset from Kershaw, etc etc) and do a group knife passaround. That seems like the ideal way to compare the knives head to head, including knives we had no intention of buying before hand.

I'm not really concerned with science, because I think the overall evaluation of a knife is not in the science biz. At best, we can talk about important objectively examinable aspects to the overall picture.
 
First of all I will not be participating. I don’t feel comfortable doing so with the history between Cliff and myself, probably introduces a bias of it’s own. I really don’t believe there is a lot of hype and misinformation being spread; in fact I think most of the common knowledge about knives is true and correct. Is there some salesmanship sure, however most people are honest on forums like these. I do agree setting out to prove something introduces a bias however that isn’t really avoidable or even a bad thing. I do fear that there may be a lot of people that will give this test and its results more importance than other reviews because of how it is being presented. This can produce hype of it’s own. However, I think this is one of the best ideas I’ve seen on the forums in a long time. Well-done Cliff. Did I just say that? LOL
On performance, it is different depending on the user. The more you have the better. For example the $5 knife guy who sharpens on a high speed stone bench grinder with sparks flying, doesn’t notice much difference between steels like a guy who takes his time with many different grit water stones. I also believe there can be a big difference in how a knife performs in a test and then in real world use even when the user is the same person.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
However what you don't get is any information on :

-who made the knife
-what it is made from
-any details on the heat treatment
...
I am not looking for perfection in method. Experimental science is very much a learn by doing approach. If all you learn is not how to do something then that itself is valuable because it will showcase a possible source of misinformation. The next time you correct it and the process continues.

-Cliff
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That 's why i think it's a good idea. I would have liked to participate but shipping to the other shore and understand my "english" would be a serious issue for you. Go ahead and let us know how it works. Thanks.

dantzk.
 
Artfully Martial said:
My point is that knives are not merely tools. Few of us look at a knife the way we look at a hammer. When evaluating a knife, as in evaluating another "tool" like a car, the aesthetics have to be taken into account. Function does not always come before form--there is reason to sacrifice function sometimes. To only see the performance of steels and primary grinds overlooks one of the most important features.
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Your argument is illogical. You're arguing that an unbiased evaluation of the performance of the knife, particularly its steel, is unnecessary, perhaps even unwanted, because people may want to buy it for its looks anyway? Fine. Such people can ignore the performance review and buy it anyway. For myself: I've little use for a knife that just "looks cool." If it won't perform for me as a knife, there's no point to me carrying it.
 
I'l have to pas on the testing becasue I'm not really in and ideal situation to test, but I'll definitely look forward to reading all the reviews.
 
I'd like to participate, partly to discipline myself to evaluate design and materials better for my uses.
 
As mentioned in an earlier thread where the plan for your cutleryscience.com website came up, I think this is a terrific idea. I'm hoping to be able to participate, but right now there's a good chance business may take me overseas. If and when that settles out and I know I'll be stateside, I'll let you know.

db said:
First of all I will not be participating. I don’t feel comfortable doing so with the history between Cliff and myself, probably introduces a bias of it’s own..... However, I think this is one of the best ideas I’ve seen on the forums in a long time. Well-done Cliff. Did I just say that? LOL
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I've never understood the vehemence of your campaign against Cliff, db - sometimes it seems like it takes possession of your soul or something ;) which can't be doing you much good IMO - but I do admire your objectivity on this. A man who recognizes his bias has already gone a long ways towards overcoming it. I think you'd probably make a very good participant for this project
 
Terry. You guys are not detectives inspecting anything. That again gives off the wrong idea that you are going into this with the predetermined opinion that something is wrong and that you will get to the bottom of it and bring out the criminal (s) responsible. Other than this it sounds like an exciting idea.

I think you should go into this as an objective evaluator of a product, test the best you can and be ready to get wet from both your peers in the study group as well as the public when the findings are made public, ( As Cliff said once in another post in another thread about getting wet when going out in the rain). Cliff is a seasoned pro at this. He gets soaked all the time. It won't bother him at all because he rocks the boat all the time. He is used to it. Now he wants volunteers to hop in his rocking boat with him. All I can say is, "oh boy!"

Sincerely I hope it is a fruitful venture for you, Cliff and everyone else and wish you all well. If Cliff is correct and a lot of hype is rampant and you guys discover things or statements to be false you could theoretically turn the industry on its head though. I doubt you will but other posts innocent enough in the beginning brought out some vicsious attacks and bitter arguements here and elsewhere bringing out a lot of bad before any good was seen from it. I'd just be prepared if the boat sinks and you are still in it thats all.

Cliff on a separtate question I have. Being that you are in Canada it makes me wonder. Am I the only guy that has had extremely bad luck with customs there not letting knives through in the mail? I have friends in Canada that I won't mail cutlery to anymore because of my experiences with customs there. Canada seems to be the worst on the planet for customs keeping stuff. I made a custom folder for a friend that never got it up in Victoria BC and lost other productions as well that I sold and refunded the money on never to know what became of the knives. Have you seen this to be a problem?



STR
 
Terry. You guys are not detectives inspecting anything. That again gives off the wrong idea that you are going into this with the predetermined opinion that something is wrong and that you will get to the bottom of it and bring out the criminal (s) responsible. Other than this it sounds like an exciting idea.
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You can read my reveiws on the passaround forum and see that I am not looking for the problem. I merely evaluate something based on my needs, and honestly state whether I like the way it is made/set up or not.

That is the best anyone can hope for.

I personally believe that what many call hype, including Cliff, can be backed up by performance since we have some great makers on the planet that know their stuff.

Sure, they market it like crazy, but I have a great collection that performs.

Even my SAK collection is claimed to be top of the line by Victorinox, but they average around $20 per unit. I can honestly tell you there are ups and downs involved with each model, but get a great deal of performance from each.
 
EDCeeker said:
Your argument is illogical. You're arguing that an unbiased evaluation of the performance of the knife, particularly its steel, is unnecessary, perhaps even unwanted, because people may want to buy it for its looks anyway? Fine. Such people can ignore the performance review and buy it anyway. For myself: I've little use for a knife that just "looks cool." If it won't perform for me as a knife, there's no point to me carrying it.
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I disagree, aesthetics is a factor you should consider in general review of a knife, for a performance review, its not so much of a consideration, i do agree with that. If aesthetics were not a concern everyone could/would be carrying around the same exact knife. no one wants to do that! :)
 
A wonderful idea. It should bring to light the actual differences in real world use - and not perception. Having bought an authorized copy of a big name maker, I was horribly disappointed in the performance - but not so much of the actual cutting ability of the blade itself, an entirely separate issue. It did what I expected from that type of steel.
Then I bought an original. High performance was expected. The problematic details cured by superior materials, fit and finish. Cutting ability? I'm sure it's better - the "superior" steel stays sharper longer, I think. But I expected it to.

So what is the degree of difference? Worth another $300? As a seeker of truth, I'm all for this project, and let the chips fall where they may. We'll get over getting our feelings hurt and deal with fact, not fiction - like carrying the expensive folder may be a lot of status and ego propping, not because it gives an exponential improvement (not that I'm gonna stop.)

I don't expect to find one that will cut through blast doors or deflect laser beams - but maybe there are some real performers out there disguised in sheep's clothing.
 
I think that to minimize bias you have to only evaluate the least subjective facet of the thing you are studying. Performance is much less subjective than aesthetics or ergonomics.
 
This sounds like a darn nifty idea to me (of course, I read Skeptical Inquirer on a regular basis), but I just wanted to mention a safety concern. If you're shipping knives out that have deliberately bad heat-treatment make absolutely SURE that your testers know that they might get a knife that will shatter and send razor-sharp bits of steel flying about the room if they break it. I'd hate for anyone to be injured, or WORSE, for the test results not to make it to light. ;)

Oh, and are you planning on double-blinding it somehow, so the person sending the knives (or communicating with the testers) isn't the same person that labelled them and knows the maker, heat treat, steel, etc?
 
Well I sent in my email. I am looking forward to exposing my own bias as much as learning about the steel. I guess that after the fact I want to know how my impressions alligned with the material properties. I'm afraid that I'm not half as smart as I think I am. :)
 
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